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I'm right on this, by the way,
All together now
OH, NO YOU'RE NOT
This was done to death on the previous thread,,,,,,but...... IMO the force used was reasonable.Woody, I'm sure you understand that you cant take the law into your own hands and do whatever you deem acceptable to someone who you perceive to have committed an offence.
If you watch the video closely, scroteboy tried to take a swing at the big guy after being removed from his seat by the shoulders/clothing and then pushed off the train. It was only after he forcibly tried to charge past him and the conductor (assault on the conductor?) to get back on that he was 'thrown' back out. Hardly unreasonable in the circumstances.
I really can't summon any sympathy for scroteboy and it was his actions and attitude alone which caused him to be treated the way he was.
BTW KungFu, I think it's you who needs a sense of proportion. I might agree with your viewpoint if the big guy had given him a couple of digs but he didn't. He merely restrained and ejected.
The youth was told by the ticket inspector to leave the train, he refused this and responded with verbal abuse.
This then made him an 'undesirable'(should be in terms and conditions booklet)and as such, the undesirable can be ejected(using reasonable force) from public transport.
The fact the undesirable put up resistence to being removed, caused him to get a little scratch.
The big guy did not throw punches or kick the undesirable, so what is the limit of reasonable force?
If you watch the video closely, scroteboy tried to take a swing at the big guy after being removed from his seat by the shoulders/clothing
Would be perfectly acceptable; self-defence you see. No Pay could well have bin in fear for his life, that a violent crime was about to take place, and wooduv bin well within his rights to use reasonable and proportionate force to prevent a crime from taking place. 😉
Youser getting deseperate now. 😆
Good thing you're not Lawyers, eh?
No Pay could well have bin in fear for his life
It's you who is desperate elf. IIRC the big guy states quite clearly 'off' and prior to that had enquired if there was a problem. There was no suggestion that the big guy was going to do anything other than escort the scrote from the train.
The youth should have bee ASKED to leave the train, and stroked lovingly as he agreed to leave.
He prevented a breach of the peace by removing the lad.
The force used was reasonable, the "big man" did NOT beat the young man up, he ejected him as the conductor requested.
Its an anomaly with this forum, we moan when people walk on by and allow criminal activity to take place but when people do the right thing such as this video (he didnt beat the living daylights out of the lad) we condemn them.
I look forward to hearing the judgement of the court 😉
Would be perfectly acceptable; self-defence you see. No Pay could well have bin in fear for his life, that a violent crime was about to take place, and wooduv bin well within his rights to use reasonable and proportionate force to prevent a crime from taking place.Youser getting deseperate now.
Good thing you're not Lawyers, eh?
You're just on the sympathy vote because you were a little chav **** in your youth too. In fact you're still a chav **** in your old age.
It's you who is desperate elf
Erm, I don't think so; I said from the start it loks very much like assault, the relevant authorities have agreed with me and consider there is a case to be answered, and charged Big Man with assault. 😀
It's you who are clutching at straws, claiming 'oh but No Pay did this', and 'No Pay did that', in a desperate attempt to try and believe that you might not be wrong.
I just put that bit about No Pay possibly being 'in fear for his life' so that you might then have a think about your own perspective a bit more, re 'preventing crime taking place', but you seem to have missed that. Oh well.
Must go; I have a date with a proper lawyer. 😉
[i]"the young man would not produce a valid ticket when asked to do so, he refused to get off the train despite being instructed to do so by the guard on several occasions, and repeatedly swore in front of small children. I became concerned that the guard would not be able to eject the young man on his own and that the situation may become a violent confrontation, I asked the guard if he would like assistance in ejecting him, and subsequently helped the guard by doing so, although the young man violently struggled and tried to force his way back on the train after I ejected him."[/i]
😉
Innocent until proven guilty, or in Scotland there is also a 'not proven' verdict available.the relevant authorities have agreed with me and consider there is a case to be answered
We'll see what the outcome is but it won't change that I believe the big guy was in the right.
Hahahaha! another cock fight! we're in for a real treat this xmas!
There train could not have waited at the station all night or for very long, as the train needs to make timtabled stops, and if the train is late, scotrail will be fined for late arrival, by network rail.
Most newer rolling stock is fitted with cctv, and recording devices, so the lad could be identified as fare dodger.
No violence was offered by the lad or the conductor, but was by the big man,
The conductor should have rung BTP for help, but seeing as theyre so thinly spread it would be interesting to see how long a responce took, and if a responce was deemed necessary for a petty amount of money,
also what would have happened if the conductor closed the doors, without proper observation of the other doors and gave the ding ding away signal, and somebody was trpped in the doors and got injured or killed.
to be contiued.
No violence was offered by the lad or the conductor, but was by the big man,
So Project? If you are saying the big man was being violent! What is the limit of using reasonable force to eject an undesirable??
Not in an assault charge!Innocent until proven guilty, or in Scotland there is also a 'not proven' verdict available.
don't think I have even seen CCTV on that service, but CCTV isn't going to provide convincing proof of fare dodging - just how good do you think the resolution is to read the ticket!Most newer rolling stock is fitted with cctv, and recording devices, so the lad could be identified as fare dodger.
If a response was not necessary for refusing to buy a ticket it probably would have been for refusing to leave the train when requested. If BTP responded by road it would take at 30 minutes to get from their nearest facility (Edinburgh Waverley) to Linlithgow even if they felt it justified blues and twos; assuming the traffic was reasonably quiet. If they responded by "rail" then they would need to have come from Glasgow, which would have been at least 35 minutes away (assuming there was a train at just the right time). The local police station in Linlithgow is not manned at that time of night, and so a response by local officers pending the arrival of BTP would have probably taken 15 minutes assuming someone was free and it was considered sufficiently important.The conductor should have rung BTP for help, but seeing as theyre so thinly spread it would be interesting to see how long a responce took, and if a responce was deemed necessary for a petty amount of money,
No idea what this random speculation is about.also what would have happened if the conductor closed the doors, without proper observation of the other doors and gave the ding ding away signal, and somebody was trpped in the doors and got injured or killed.
In the words of a good friend of mine:
Scrotes these day think they can do what they likethis sort of shite is why they think it!
Junkyard - Member
As sad as this is, it was predictable.
Hard to see how he did not assault the fare dodger as much as many will have sympathy with his actions.But frankly a waste of everyone's time and money.
THIS
What does that mean JY?
So Zulu - all your previous waffling on about there being no possibility of it being assault is clearly wrong.
The was no violence or threat of violence until the big man intervened. You thin vigilante justice is acceptable. can I punch the next person I see on a mobile phone while driving a car?
steffybhoy - MemberNo violence was offered by the lad or the conductor, but was by the big man,
So Project? If you are saying the big man was being violent! What is the limit of using reasonable force to eject an undesirable??
Zero in that sort of instance I would have thought. he has no right or power to remove the scrote. as soon as he touches him it is assault.
Boarding bob -0 inconveniencing passengers is an excuse for removal by force? great. I can remove by force the scrotes that park illegally and delay the bus then
So Zulu - all your previous waffling on about there being no possibility of it being assault is clearly wrong.
A common failing and an easy mistake to make. I assume he has only been charged at this point and not found guilty, no?
Zulu claimed that it wasn't an assault for a load of spurious reasons. if Zulu had been right he couldn't have been charged as there would be no case to answer
Yes TJ - apparently you can kill someone if they tread on your toe too 🙄
Zulu had been right he couldn't have been charged as there would be no case to answer
I was not aware Scotland had reintroduced the grand Jury, or do you still know knob all about the law?
Tell you what - what flavour humble pie would you like to eat when he is cleared 😉
Poly,
Most newer rolling stock is fitted with cctv, and recording devices, so the lad could be identified as fare dodger.
don't think I have even seen CCTV on that service, but CCTV isn't going to provide convincing proof of fare dodging - just how good do you think the resolution is to read the ticket!
The guard would have or should have submitteda report about a fare dodging youth with a ful descripption of waht happened
also what would have happened if the conductor closed the doors, without proper observation of the other doors and gave the ding ding away signal, and somebody was trapped in the doors and got injured or killed.
No idea what this random speculation is about.
People are injured by train doors closing on them and the interlock not properley working, or the conductor dinging the train out, and the passenger trying to gain access to the train once it is departing the platform, as happened recently near me which resulted in the death of a passenger and the conductor being arrested and suspended from duty.
There are specific rules regarding closing doors and departures from stations.
Glad you agree with the rest of what i typed.
OH NO!! Surely we cant go over the same arguments again!
TJ v Zulu - ok, both sides clearly put - case to answer = was 'reasonable force' (as allowed under transport laws) used and is a member of the public allowed to exercise the right under the approval of guard. Simples.
Can we just leave this to the court now?
tumteetumteetumm.....doobeedoobeedooo...........................
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I'll let you do the Googling on this one. Do all cases where a person is charged lead to a conviction? Or to put it another way, is it possible that an innocent person can be incorrectly charged?
Should we ignore the idea of innocent until proven guilty in all cases?
It would like an attempt have a pop at another forum member, don't you think?
You are not fooling me DS you mean Contador dont you 😉
OT clearly there is some debate as to whether he did or did not use reasonable force or have the right to do so.
Lets see what jury says
Zulu - you really do talksome mince.
KungFuPanda - Member
Alan Pollock is a revolting fat bully and I'm pleased to hear that he faces charges for assault.
I believe he makes his living as a banker (although I expect you'll hear his occupation described as 'risk analyst' or something similar).
The bloke is an all round scumbag and I wouldnt mind betting its not the first time hes done something like that. Probably hits his mrs too, and kicks the cat. Fat slob.
POSTED 1 HOUR AGO # REPORT-POST
I totally agree with this!!
The fat bully was showing off! He obviously thinks he's powerfull being a banker, I bet he does throw his wieght around at home, he's just lucky the lad didn't swing for him! Would have shocked him, with the lad being a lot smaller.
If this was to be allowed then all fat bully's would do it wouldn't they!?
And at the end of the day all the lad did was fare dodge!! Not a major crime now really is it!!? 😕
You are not fooling me DS you mean Contador dont you
Contador who?
Loving your work TJ 😆
Fancy a little wager Tandem darling?
Tenner to charity of your choice from me if he's convicted - if you'll match it? Tenner to charity of my choice from you if he's not.
fair?
Scottish criminal law is different from what I’m used to so I can’t comment on the intricacies of what goes on abroad (so to speak), but as obnoxious as I find MAIN’S behavior, I can’t help feeling that POLLOCK acted beyond his civic responsibilities in the circumstances.
Something to consider is that a visual recording of a section of an event does not usually amount to the entirety of what actually happened - so there might be other factors involved that we’re not privy to.
The relevant authorities clearly believe POLLOCK has a case to answer, but if it goes in-front of a jury I can well imagine them lacking the appetite to return a guilty verdict (appreciating the strange vagaries of a not proven possibility in Scottish law). Look at the views here for example - STW is obviously a microcosm of the public that could be called upon to compose a jury - not a great deal of unanimity is there! I wouldn’t bet on him being convicted that’s for sure.
It will be an interesting case to follow.
I'd like to help out here.
Click [url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/is-the-world-mad-well-scotland-at-least/page/3#post-3300123 ]here[/url], click my link at the bottom, then click the link above again and you can go round in circles to your heart's content.
For added enjoyment, you can click [url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/no-ticket ]here[/url] and read all the same bollocks again.
I want to know what JHW thinks about this, is he not a lawyer? And 'business core' at that
I'm guessing if he's said nothing in 300 odd posts he ain't flippin interested.
Yes I am aware of this - I just don't see where it fits with the discussion!There are specific rules regarding closing doors and departures from stations.
Don't confuse lack of comment and defacto agreement.Glad you agree with the rest of what i typed.
I feel THE HIPPO is called for to bring this thread to an end
Woody - Member
I feel THE HIPPO is called for to bring this thread to an endwww.youtube.com/watch?v=wCB_m4VbY0Q
Where's the beef? 😆
Was that Alan Pollock farting?
this thread has decended into name-calling and hair pulling
I've tried to read this thread, but its so full of s+%t its unbelievable !!. All that needs to be said is that if the big man needs help with legal costs I'll be sending a cheque.
The rest of you....... well crawl back under your stones.
like an assault charge is something to worry about
An assault charge [i]is[/i] something to worry about, as a conviction for assault can cause numerous problems for a person in terms of their career especially. Such a thing can prevent you from working with kids or vulnerable adults, and go against you for a whole plethora of other jobs. Not something you want on your CV...
this thread has decended into name-calling and hair pulling
You're not wrong!
You're just on the sympathy vote because you were a little chav * in your youth too. In fact you're still a chav * in your old age.
Oh dear. I think somebody's not a Happy Bunny. 😆
'Chav' LOL!
Now, where's me fake Burberry....
Hippo is fantastic 🙂
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-16954147 ]
[/url]'Big man' video: No charges over passenger thrown off train