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You gives a flying arse what some religous nutters do as long as they dont break the laws of the UK I couldnt care less....its not a real court guys!! No worse than Christians IMO
Spongebob, you've decided that Muslim women are treated appallingly across the world (a questionable position but who am I to try and argue you out of it.) So what are you doing about it?
Grumm, Mr Agreeable is right IMO on this matter. Despite the US being secular religion is hugely influential in law making and enforcement in the US. Witness until recently the banning of stem cell research in some states which has set back this most important of research for years.
Despite the UK being non secular ironically I think religion has a slightly smaller role.
I never said it wasn't highly influential and wrong, but again, there are no christian leaders in official positions of responsibility making legal judgements on people in America, is there?
Surfer, can you give me an example of a Sharia court in the UK that has handed down a criminal ruling, which the UK authorities have then enforced? Are there thieves out there who are currently having their hands amputated on the NHS?
No. However I can provide chapter and verse of the appaling treatment of women in other countries whose law is based on sharia including the mutiliation and murder of children. Islam makes no secret of the fact that Sharia law should exist along with its punishments in the UK also.
Do you even know the difference between criminal and civil law? Or between statute law, court decisions and other forms of dispute resolution?
Yes I do. Why do you ask?
Perhaps I'm being unfair, and all the people worrying about the erosion of Muslim women's rights are also firing off letters of protest to embassies or manning refuges for domestic abuse victims. But for the OP, and the likes of the Mail, this is far less to do with protecting people's rights, and more to do with having an arbitrary enemy to be scared of. As Bill Hicks said, you gotta have an enemy.
The latter part is probably right however the former I fail to grasp your point. Is it the often argued point that beacause there are victims of abuse in the UK and because mistreatment takes place in other countries then nobody can argue against a form of law that is misogynistic and medial? I though I had dispensed with that argument earlier?
it seems your opposition to that is causing you to defend the indefensible.
Bearing in mind that we're talking about Sharia law in the UK here, not the atrocities that happen in other countries, what is so "indefensible" about a decision that those affected by it consent to? I understand your comments about people being pressurised into this but they do still have the full protection of UK law to fall back on.
there are no christian leaders in official positions of responsibility
Bill Clinton? George Bush?
there are no christian leaders in official positions of responsibility making legal judgements on people in America, is there?
Up until recently the highest office in the land intervened to influence policy!
Bill Clinton? George Bush?
Christian leaders as in priests, cardinals etc - official representatives of the church being allowed to rule on legal matters. This is a bit of a red herring anyway tbh
Bearing in mind that we're talking about Sharia law in the UK here, not the atrocities that happen in other countries, what is so "indefensible" about a decision that those affected by it consent to? I understand your comments about people being pressurised into this but they do still have the full protection of UK law to fall back on.
So you are quite happy with a system which classifies women as inferior and having less rights than men?
OK, does this worry you at all?
According to a survey by Policy Exchange of the views of UK muslims - '36% of 16-24 year olds believe if a
Muslim converts to another religion they should be punished by death'
So what do you do? Tell them they're a bunch of freakish rag-heads and their religion should be banned?
Do most members of our society treat women as equal? Why do you think we have anti-discimination laws in the first place?
Not sure what that sort of stat adds, 100% of me thinks that the kids who park up in Corbett Wood Carpark for a snog and a couple of spliffs then proceed to throw all the crap out of the window should be flogged, doesn't mean it's going to happen.
So what do you do? Tell them they're a bunch of freakish rag-heads and their religion should be banned?
Yes, that's exactly what I'm suggesting, because it's only possibly to either have the viewpoint that everything is fine, or that they are evil and should be banned. 🙄
Does most of society treat women as equal? Why do you think we have anti-discimination laws in the first place?
Erm no but we have come a long way towards equality - accepting a system that reverses that trend doesn't seem like a great plan really.
Anyone here start conversations with the words "I'm not a racist but..." ?
Not sure what that sort of stat adds
I'm saying that dismissing any kind of criticism of Islam as automatically xenophobic is unhelpful and counter-productive, and that there are aspects of Islam that are concerning. There are many different strains of Islam but unfortunately for various reasons the most radical ones are the fastest-growing.
Amazing, I am normally accused of being a loony lefty, but I'm now being called a racist for criticizing a deeply illiberal religious system. Yowzers. 🙂
accepting a system that reverses that trend
That decision is up to the individuals, not the government.
You have to accept that "freedom" for some people doesn't necessarily mean "doing what I think would be right for them". There's a convent across the road from where I live. Perhaps I should start campaigning to have it shut down? 🙄
Fair enough, I just think you let yourself down by posting a blatently inflamatory statistic, sort of thing the BNP and Daily Mail lap up.
All religon removes an element of responsibility from the follower and places it in the hands of God or Allah, until Muslims and Christians relinquish dogmatic fundamental attitudes (go on believing in a supreme being if you like) then we are not going to get anywhere.
Fair enough, I just think you let yourself down by posting a blatently inflamatory statistic, sort of thing the BNP and Daily Mail lap up.
The fact that the BNP and Daily Mail lap it up doesn't necessarily mean it should be ignored though does it?
All religon removes an element of responsibility from the follower and places it in the hands of God or Allah, until Muslims and Christians relinquish dogmatic fundamental attitudes (go on believing in a supreme being if you like) then we are not going to get anywhere.
Yup but then there isn't a fast-growing radical fundamentalist christian movement in the uk that I am aware of. If there is then that would worry me too.
What am I doing about the abuses Muslim women are suffering?
I am voicing my opinion, making people think about what is fair and reasonable, right here, right now.
My little voice doesn't count for much, but the more people openly discuss matters, even if it's only on an MTB forum, the more we will understand each other.
This is a significant issue about human rights, if it wasn't, we'd be talking about something else wouldn't we?
Like it or not, this influences the wider community. Grass roots debate is a healthy thing and it has to start somewhere. Have you heard of "six degrees"? Look it up if you haven't. The internet is a powerful medium. It can reach all corners of the connected world in milliseconds.
Who knows where the influence of a little thread like this might end up.
Am I going to become an activist and go and champion a cause? NO! You get victimised if you do things like that. I am jsut contributing to a thread. That's enough.
I'm all about free thinking and free speech. I deplore anyone who stifles either of these.
That decision is up to the individuals, not the government.
Thats incorrect. In the UK the elected Government decides what laws we adhere to not individuals or groups.
You have to accept that "freedom" for some people doesn't necessarily mean "doing what I think would be right for them". There's a convent across the road from where I live. Perhaps I should start campaigning to have it shut down?
I'm not sure what campaigning against the convent across the road has got to do with it however "we" make value judgements all the time and politicians make judgements that impact us all. Like it or not people decide what is "good for us" Freedom is an interesting concept however I think in this example its freedom for some and subjugation for others.
Thats incorrect. In the UK the elected Government decides what laws we adhere to not individuals or groups.
Actually it's Parliament
The fact that the BNP and Daily Mail lap it up doesn't necessarily mean it should be ignored though does it?
Yep pretty much
Grumm, if the fundamentalist thing bothers you, I've known fundamentalist Christians (as in the sort of people who believe that gays are evil, etc.) who at some point reappraised their beliefs and took a step back from the full-on bigoted looniness. I personally think people are much less likely to do this when they are typecast as outlaws and threats to society.
The fact that the BNP and Daily Mail lap it up doesn't necessarily mean it should be ignored though does it?
I think it should be checked for validity before being disseminated futher.
I'm saying that dismissing any kind of criticism of Islam as automatically xenophobic is unhelpful and counter-productive, and that there are aspects of Islam that are concerning.
Coming from a Muslim background, I'd agree with that. I personally have several issues with aspects of Islamic faith and culture, which is why I've chosen not to follow it, as my Path. But I have simliar feelings about Christianity, and a host of other religions, too.
Islam, if is to progress in the West, must be adaptable and flexible. This will lead to schisms between hard-liners and Liberals, the same as Christianity, Judaism, etc. There are anyway different sects within Islam, some more 'liberal' than others.
I am not happy with the idea that many women feel compelled to wear burkas. But it should be their choice, and theirs' alone, to wear or not.
I don't see why the pub should shut early on a Sunday, or that other shops shut early or are not even open. And if you pay a cheque in on Friday, it will be bloody next Thursday before it's cleared. bung it in on a Monday, and it's cleared by Thursday anyway.
And have you ever tried to get a Latka, or some pickled Herring, on a Saturday in Stamford Hill?? 😯
Christianity is in fact the religion that causes the most unnecessary restrictions in the UK, anyway. It's just that as our Law has evolved around Christian philosophy, most people fail to notice this.
I have no problem with the Sharia Law courts that operate here. They are not dissimliar to the Jewish ones, which preside over very simliar issues. UK Law has precedent over all other 'Laws', anyway.
Inertesting fact about Islam: Women were allowed to own property and laynd, long before they were under Christian rule...
There are many different strains of Islam but unfortunately for various reasons the most radical ones are the fastest-growing.
I'm saying that dismissing any kind of criticism of Islam as automatically xenophobic is unhelpful and counter-productive, and that there are aspects of Islam that are concerning.
Coming from a Muslim background, I'd agree with that. I personally have several issues with aspects of Islamic faith and culture, which is why I've chosen not to follow it, as my Path. But I have simliar feelings about Christianity, and a host of other religions, too.
Islam, if is to progress in the West, must be adaptable and flexible. This will lead to schisms between hard-liners and Liberals, the same as Christianity, Judaism, etc. There are anyway different sects within Islam, some more 'liberal' than others. Islam must allow itself to be open to criticism of the way it operates, and look to ways of reconciling difficulties in it's practice, and within the society it exists.
I am not happy with the idea that many women feel compelled to wear burkas. But it should be their choice, and theirs' alone, to wear or not.
I don't see why the pub should shut early on a Sunday, or that other shops shut early or are not even open. And if you pay a cheque in on Friday, it will be bloody next Thursday before it's cleared. Bung it in on a Monday, and it's cleared by Thursday anyway. Stupid bloody outdated Sunday trading laws...
And have you ever tried to get a Latka, or some pickled Herring, on a Saturday in Stamford Hill?? 😯
Christianity is in fact the religion that causes the most unnecessary restrictions in the UK, anyway. It's just that as our Law has evolved around Christian philosophy, most people fail to notice this.
I have no problem with the Sharia Law courts that operate here. They are not dissimliar to the Jewish ones, which preside over very simliar issues. UK Law has precedent over all other 'Laws', anyway.
Inertesting fact about Islam: Women were allowed to own property and laynd, long before they were under Christian rule...
There are many different strains of Islam but unfortunately for various reasons the most radical ones are the fastest-growing.
I personally think people are much less likely to do this when they are typecast as outlaws and threats to society.
So be nice to them in the hope they will become more mainstream?
I'm not sure what campaigning against the convent across the road has got to do with it
Well you could argue that living your life as a nun is an imposition on their personal freedoms. I think you'd be right. Thing is, they have chosen to do it and can opt out of it at any time, even though their peers and their value systems might not make that an easy decision.
Actually it's Parliament
I stand corrected.
Well you could argue that living your life as a nun is an imposition on their personal freedoms. I think you'd be right. Thing is, they have chosen to do it and can opt out of it at any time, even though their peers and their value systems might not make that an easy decision.
OK. Campaign away. However by referencing examples of other religions, oppression, brutality and mistreatment is immaterial. They are wrong also!
Women were allowed to own property and laynd, long before they were under Christian rule...
And it's ironic that for a religion that's constantly described as "medieval" and backward, it was a civilising influence on Western Europe for hundreds of years.
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They are wrong also!
But you don't get sensationalist news stories about them. Or Christians (oh the irony) popping up to condemn the inequality built in to their own faith.
And it's ironic that for a religion that's constantly described as "medieval" and backward, it was a civilising influence on Western Europe for hundreds of years.
Yes, unfortunately its overriding focus on religion has stifled its cultural and economic development for a long time.
But you don't get sensationalist news stories about them. Or Christians (oh the irony) popping up to condemn the inequality built in to their own faith.
Less so in the mainstream right wing press however if you look you will see references to terrible things happening in the name of Christianity. They will seldom be reported in the Daily Mail however take a look at RichardDawkins.net. On there you will see countless examples of the evil of religion at work.
This thread is about Sharia law however.
Just found the report on the Policy Exchange Website, quite interesting.
[url= http://www.policyexchange.org.uk/news/news.cgi?id=130 ]Government policy towards Muslims is sharpening[/url]
1003 Muslims questioned. Indicates that young people are more radical than older generations, not exactly a suprise is it? I was more radical at 19 than I am at 39, although I didn't express it through relgion.
Biggest problem I have with this report is again it's emphasising a perception that may or may not be true, that is that the radicalisation is growing.
Policy Exchange release a major new survey on the attitudes of Muslims in Britain and the reasons behind the rise in Islamic fundamentalism amongst the younger generation.
But it doesn't report on a rise it just compares young people with old people, it doesn't compare 18-24 year olds 5 years ago to 18-24 year olds today, so it's bogus!
[i]But it doesn't report on a rise it just compares young people with old people, it doesn't compare 18-24 year olds 5 years ago to 18-24 year olds today, so it's bogus! [/i]
What you need is a more objective metric, say the amount of buses blown up by UK islamists in the last 5 years, compared to the 5 before.
😉
you will see countless examples of the evil of religion at work.
The evils of religion or the evils of society? Or even individuals?
Not denying that religion isn't usually a constructive influence on society. Just that Islam seems to be getting singled out a lot.
As IanMunro says, there have been similar courts for Orthodox Jews for years. These also treat women in a manner that could be seen to be discriminatory (although as I've said above, how do you convince someone they're being hard done by when they voluntarily choose that course of action?). In any event, society has not yet collapsed.
The fact that the BNP and Daily Mail lap it up doesn't necessarily mean it should be ignored though does it?
Yep pretty much
You see I find that kind of attitude rather silly. Yes the Mail and BNP are nasty bigoted ****s and their motives for saying things are pretty much universally wrong. But it's faulty logic to assume that everything they say is therefore incorrect.
The statistic I posted is from a survey which has nothing to do with the Mail or BNP and if you read the report doesn't seem to be trying to fan the flames of intolerance. In fact it finds many things which would probably pleasantly surprise Daily Mail readers about British Muslims. That doesn't however mean that everything is hunky-dory.
doh double post!
No-one is saying that everything is hunky-dory. However if we lived in a society where people weren't free to follow their choice of religion, and choose (there's that word again) to resolve disputes in accordance with it, things would be far less hunky-dory.
As IanMunro says, there have been similar courts for Orthodox Jews for years
They dont deal with criminal law.
No-one is saying that everything is hunky-dory. However if we lived in a society where people weren't free to follow their choice of religion, and choose (there's that word again) to resolve disputes in accordance with it, things would be far less hunky-dory.
Thats quite a leap! Why would you assume a totally secular society would be a worse society?
There is evidence that secular societies including the Scandinavian countries have far lower crime rates, lower early mortality rates, murder rates and sexually transmitted diseases.
It is a myth that religion contributes anything constructive.
[i]They dont deal with criminal law. [/i]
And neither will any sharia court in this country.
Not officially maybe.
They dont deal with criminal law.
And neither will any sharia court in this country.
Thats incorrect. UK Sharia courts have been involved in criminal investigations in liaison with the police. Unlike Jewish courts it has been made clear a desire to rule on criminal matters in the UK.
Surfer, I think you are getting confused. Will there be special Sharia prisons opening? Will the police have to cooperate with Sharia courts to enforce sentences of stoning and beheading?