[Closed] Catholic Church and other religions!

Good, I am glad we agree that some unprovable idea - let's call it God - has influenced a group of "people" to impose the threat of eternal damnation upon other people, unless they obey the rules set by the "people" in charge.

I preferred it the way you said it first time, lets leave it at that, unless you are actually looking to argue.

Well, no, he said he didn't have one, not that there wasn't one.

To be fair, he said that one was not available.

Sure, and I'd love it if that could be the case. But as I said before, these things are complicated and difficult. So, the amount of explanation people are actually capable of understanding will vary wildly between individuals and, with the best will in the world, most people are not scientists.

Even with simplified examples, people still misunderstand. For instance, "if we came from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?" People poking holes in TBBT usually follow the same format too; they fundamentally misunderstand the theory and then adopt the opinion that it's wrong.

Sure but it works both ways, people will claim a scientific explanation, with a fundamental misunderstandng of the science.

At it's most basic level, you get this with flight. If someone argued that god held aeroplanes in the air, and someone else argued that no it was purely due to air flowing over the top faster than it went under. Both show a pack uf understanding of science.

And a follow up question, do you know anything beyond some basics about the big bang?

If I may? ([i]repetition number 14,000,053[/i])

The "Big Bang Theory" was a pejorative term coined by Sir Fred Hoyle, Cambridge cosmologist and mathematician, who was a proponent of the static universe. He considered the idea of an expanding universe to be pseudo-science. However, it was catchy and stuck.

Georges Henri Joseph Édouard Lemaître (French: [l?m?t?] ( listen); 17 July 1894 – 20 June 1966) was a Belgian priest, astronomer and professor of physics at the Catholic University of Louvain. He was the first person to propose the theory of the expansion of the Universe, widely misattributed to Edwin Hubble.[1][2] He was also the first to derive what is now known as the Hubble's law and made the first estimation of what is now called the Hubble constant, which he published in 1927, two years before Hubble's article.[3][4][5][6] Lemaître also proposed what became known as the Big Bang theory of the origin of the Universe, which he called his 'hypothesis of the primeval atom'

And Le Maitre said that God done it. 😉

Has this thread considered the meaning of the words 'faith' and 'belief' yet? (And saying it's 'just semantics' isn't allowed, unless you also want to debate language, linguistics and communication at large...)

There are some slightly rabid sounding atheists on here accusing religious people of closed-mindedness when it seems to me that the ability to put your faith in something unbelievable (death and resurrection, for example) points to an open mind. And it's the atheists who are sounding closed-minded on this thread, whereas in my experience the more spiritual your nature, the more inclined you are to see and accept the differences in others (differences of religious outlook, sexuality, etc); and the more likely you are to see and to be able to deal with doubt, duality and hypocrisy.

Of course there is no direct link between spirituality and political ambition or position within the church - so the activities causing much populist outrage at the moment (legitimately, in all probability) still do not represent the religious or spiritual inner workings of most people who see themselves as religious.

Sure but it works both ways, people will claim a scientific explanation, with a fundamental misunderstandng of the science. At it's most basic level, you get this with flight.

<nods> agreed, and an excellent example.

I guess the question then is, does it matter? If people misunderstand or oversimplify the science, that doesn't necessarily devalue the scientists who understand it properly. Ie, it doesn't make those Theories wrong.

Maybe the problem comes when you're arguing [i]against [/i]something you don't really understand. When this happens, you can approach it as a learning opportunity, or you can stick your fingers in your ears and shout loudly.

I'm not a scientist, I'm at best an enthusiastic amateur. I have to take it on face value - have "faith" if you like - that a lot of very clever people are broadly in agreement that this is how things are, based on craploads of research and other very clever people trying to prove them wrong and generally reaching a consensus. For instance, I have no doubt that atoms exist, but I've neither the means nor the understanding to prove that for myself.

Whilst the same could be said to an extent about religion, the difference is that no-one seems to be able to agree (even within the same faith, let alone between different ones) and so the whole thing then becomes an exercise in who can make up the least implausible story.

putting your faith in something unbelievable (death and resurrection, for example) points to an open mind.

The problem there is, an open mind lets any old crap in if you let it.

Have an open mind by all means, just back it up with a little scepticism and critical thinking.

"And it's the atheists who are sounding closed-minded."

Surely not.

I thought they had all personnal tried finding God, rather than just dismissing faith without even giving it a good go themselves.

Dorset . I think most atheists aren't bothered by any individuals spirituality, most have issues around the special status given in society to churches ( my short hand for religious organisations) one only has to look at the sad case of cardinal o'brian to see the hypocrisy and self delusion required*

Edit: *by him personally ( I've just read that back and it sounds more than a little pejorative, apologies)

I thought they had all personnal tried finding God, rather than just dismissing faith without even giving it a good go themselves.

Which god? I see over 3000 to have a bash at: [url= http://www.godchecker.com/ ]http://www.godchecker.com/[/url]

I only have a finite life. I can't believe in them *all*. I'd never get the washing done or go out biking or owt.

You know, I'd reject the suggestion that all atheists are closed-minded or are only atheists because we've never tried not to be.

There's plenty of born-again atheists, for a start; quite a few have discussed that a way back on this very thread. Plenty more will have come to their own conclusions by other routes, but I'd be surprised if many had just never given it any thought at all. As we've discussed previously, religion can be non-trivial to avoid.

(Actually, I'd reject the assumption that "all" of a given demographic are anything, really)

Which god? I see over 3000 to have a bash at

There's an amusing cliché isn't there, something like "the theist disbelieves a few thousand gods, I just disbelieve in one more."

Whilst the same could be said to an extent about religion, the difference is that no-one seems to be able to agree (even within the same faith, let alone between different ones) and so the whole thing then becomes an exercise in who can make up the least implausible story.

In general, there is agreement within denominations and whilst there is still some diagreement it is probably in the order of that within the sciences especially if we include the social sciences. There a various competeing theories, even disagreements on what constitutes evidence. And if you want to take a scientific approach to religion or God, it would be reasonable to use a social science approach rather than a physical science approach

Have an open mind by all means, just back it up with a little scepticism and critical thinking.

Yes, that's true. I suppose we all draw the line in different places.

I think most atheists aren't bothered by any individuals spirituality, most have issues around the special status given in society to churches

Yes, and I suppose that is what this thread opened with - I suppose I was just trying to make the point that religion is about finding expression for spiritual tendencies, not forcing an idea down the throats of others.

Actually, I'd reject the assumption that "all" of a given demographic are anything, really

Yes, me too! Not sure if your comment was in response to mine, but I definitely wasn't trying to say that all atheists have closed minds - just observing that, on this thread, it's been the atheists who are coming across as most closed-minded and least-tolerant ('you can believe what you want, just keep it to yourself').

Calling aethists closed minded is hilarious. I dont have faith in an answer that has no evidence and adhere to it whatever the facts show. I am the opposite you can change my view with evidence and facts and yet some wish to suggest (blind)faith is somehow more open minded. Lol and incredulous smiley
As for rosey careful now you are in danger of mocking our views and apparently only we do that 🙄
Tbh when ever j hear an appeal to be open minded U jt is almost always by folk who have no rational argument to make. Conspiracists, crystal healing energies alternative medicine and other stuff that has no rational basis nor evidence. Ironically it us said by people who have no doubts on the truth of their own view which us counter to the actual evidence. Its a desperate cry.for help really

String theory JY?

You've probably been the most passive aggressive atheist on the thread JY.

Yes, and I suppose that is what this thread opened with - I suppose I was just trying to make the point that religion is about finding expression for spiritual tendencies, not forcing an idea down the throats of others.

Yes, the concept of evangelising is just a figment of the imaginations of closed minded atheists.

"And it's the atheists who are sounding closed-minded."
Surely not.
I thought they had all personnal tried finding God, rather than just dismissing faith without even giving it a good go themselves.

I have experience of being a Christian, being brought up as one. Have you tried being an atheist? I wouldn't even necessarily describe myself as an atheist, despite being accused of 'ranting militant atheism'.

No, i'm not sure who you think expects you to take it more seriously as a result.

Wrong seems a strange word to use in thsi context. It didn't happen, it is allegorical. That doesn't really make it wrong.
Unless you think Harry Potter is wrong, Hemingway's Old Man and the Sea is wrong, Shakespeare is wrong. When Munch painted the Scream, that wasn't a real person, so he was wrong. Picasso's Guernica did not happen literally as depicted. So he too was wrong. However, wrong as they are,all these things help us to know more about ourselves and the human condition. Would you dismiss them?

Want to repond to these JY? In case someone decides you're the one who says nothing.

Hmm. No answer. Better start at the (known-of) beginning then!

Time to worship Abassi: "Nigerian Creator God and Lord of the Sky" for a bit.

I'll let you know how I get on. Next week: Achimi from Algeria!

I have experience of being a Christian, being brought up as one. Have you tried being an atheist? I wouldn't even necessarily describe myself as an atheist, despite being accused of 'ranting militant atheism'.

Did you evangalise, when you were Christian?
How would you describe yourself then? Christian? Muslim? Agnostic?

But lets see, how much evangalising have folks seen in the month of febraury? Obviosly i don't mean if you walk into a church but just everyday on the street on your doorstep evangalising.

JY is there such a thing as love?

A little light-hearted tale, not directly pertinent to the debate, but I thought it might amuse a few. Apologies if this derails the serious discussion.

My daughter has expressed an interest in God for quite some time, I don’t really know where it comes from. Neither my wife nor I practice any religion but neither of us are anti-religion, except the fundamentalist nut job types, and the wife family being originally from the outer Hebrides has a deep mistrust of Presbyterians. The little one sometimes asks questions “what’s Heaven like” and similar, we tend to use the non-committal approach of answering with another question, “what do you think it’s like”, apparently it’s just like the pink palace at Eurodisney with unlimited pizza and cupcakes (chuck in Snow White and Cinderella and I quite fancy that myself).

We decided that it would be OK for her to go along to a Sunday school, so this Sunday we took her along to a local church for the first time. As it was a Sunday school, in a church I did expect a bit of preaching and maybe the odd bible/God reference but went along mainly to make sure there was no thrusting of anything down anyone throats going on.

We met the teacher, who was a lovely young lady. I suspect this is where things started to go wrong for me because there was a bit of coveting going on (Strike 1).

The room they were in was an annex of the church and it had an amazing carved oak table in the middle of it, the teacher overheard me ask the wife if she thought it would fit in our dining room, after all they didn’t seem to lock the door (I paced it out, it would). The teacher didn’t look amused (strike 2).

The kids all sat around and the teacher read a story about Moses, they had just passed the burning bush bit when I thought that I could actually smell burning, wow that’s pretty powerful stuff, maybe there is more to this after all I thought. It was then that another Dad tapped me on the shoulder and pointed to my coat, it was slung over the back of my chair and was pressed up against a radiator and was now smoking away. I jumped up, “’kin ‘ell my coats on fire” at a volume which was a bit above what I could have gotten away with, grabbed the coat and ran out of the building (strike 3 and I’m out).

In the car on the way home we were talking about what she had learned (except the fact that her Dad is an idiot who sets fire to his coat), and interestingly she has already decided that not every part of the religion is for her, she didn’t like the sound of “honor thy father and thy mother” because sometimes when we ask her to tidy her room she would rather play with her Barbies. She is also little bit concerned that God will “smite down” Aria and Damman, her friends who are Hindu because they don’t believe in “her God” (they have told her that before), although we have tried to persuade her not to try and convert them.

I’ve taken the whole episode as a sign that I’m not welcome, and more to the point that God considers The North Face the work of the devil, so next week the wife and daughter will go to Sunday school leaving me with all Sunday morning to go out on my bike and I get an excuse to buy a new (non-TNF) jacket. God certainly does move in mysterious ways.

I dunno, I suppose I still think of myself as Christian in some ways, having been baptised etc, but I'd probably say agnostic with strong leanings towards atheism.

And no I didn't evangelise, but lots of Christians do.

Only passive DD I am improving then in my attitude then
CM see the bit you quote where he describes himself as achristian.....it might help you work out how he describes himself
Bth

Only passive DD I am improving then in my attitude then
CM see the bit you quote where he describes himself as achristian.....it might help you work out how he describes himself
Bth

Well there you go grum, you sounded less than sure, but JY seems pretty sure you described yourself as Christian. I mshould have known to ask him.

Incidentally JY, you're starting to come across as a bit of a dick.

Oh, and no I didn't. Do show me. It will be very useful.

And no I didn't evangelise, but lots of Christians do.

This seems to be quite central to these debates, and i think only a small minority of Christians evangalise.

The 2011 census shows 33m christians in England and Wales in a population of 56m so even accepting that many pf those were kids might not have filled in the census form and that many of them called themselves christian but actually had never really thought anyhting of we could reasonably say that 1 in 5 people are Christian, and so if a majority of them started to evangalise, then we would see it everywhere. i can't think of the last time i saw anyone evangalising. On the street or at my door. And when i think of the times i have seen it happen it was very easy to walk on and ignore.

......blimey a 655 post thread about religion with no one banned and its not been locked...... there must be a god after all!

Apparently it has to go to 666 before it gets locked

I guess the conclusion we can draw there is, it was a vocal minority causing all the problems for everyone else.

How very meta.

The problem there is, an open mind lets any old crap in if you let it.

Incidentally JY, you're starting to come across as a bit of a dick

I was not trying to be a "dick " [ but I am as impressed by your contribution. Have I driven someone off the thread like you did with northwind?] i am not sure why you asked a question when your quote included the answer and so did your question - one Grum did indeed confirm 😕

Oh, and no I didn't. Do show me. It will be very useful.

GRUM: I have experience of being a [b]Christian[/b], being brought up as one. Have you tried being an atheist? I wouldn't even necessarily describe myself as an atheist, despite being accused of 'ranting militant atheism'.

CM Did you evangalise, when you were Christian?[you seem to understand here what religion he was]
How would you describe yourself then? Christian? Muslim? Agnostic?

And yet i am being a "dick"
MMM are you trying for a thread lock? I shall happily ignore you CM to let the thread continue if you can reciprocate

I guess the conclusion we can draw there is, it was a vocal minority causing all the problems for everyone else.

How very meta.

Well done!

CM Did you evangalise, when you were Christian?[you seem to understand here what religion he was]
How would you describe yourself then? Christian? Muslim? Agnostic?

Yes, i know what religion he [i]was[/i], i was asking how he described himself [i]now[/i], he got it. But thanks for your input

CharlieMungus - Member

Good, I am glad we agree that some unprovable idea - let's call it God - has influenced a group of "people" to impose the threat of eternal damnation upon other people, unless they obey the rules set by the "people" in charge.

I preferred it the way you said it first time, lets leave it at that, unless you are actually looking to argue.

I am sure that you do.
No, let's not leave it at that.
What you are suggesting is the playground equivalent of "my big friend has told me to tell you that if you don't do as he has told me to tell you, then he has a horrible place waiting for you, for ever, and it will hurt a lot!"

You cannot equate religion and science.
The former seeks reasons and rationale to confirm the existence of something that cannot be proven.
The latter actively seeks to disprove the existence of anything presented as a truth and demands evidence a plenty to boot.

I thought they had all personnal tried finding God, rather than just dismissing faith without even giving it a good go themselves.

How do you give religion a good go?

Are non-believers supposed to attend church until they reach a specific time limit at which point the converted stay and the rest are allowed back to their daily business?

You either believe or you don't.

I shall happily ignore you CM to let the thread continue if you can reciprocate

It appears you have been ignoring me already JY, i've asked you some direct questions which you have chosen not to answer. You seem to pop up to have a little go at me then disappear off again.

I am sure that you do.
No, let's not leave it at that.

Ok, so I take it either you didn't what you said the first time?

CM, if you were a good Catholic, you'd be evangelising too. 😉

http://www.catholic.org/hf/faith/story.php?id=40083

What you are suggesting is the playground equivalent of "my big friend has told me to tell you that if you don't do as he has told me to tell you, then he has a horrible place waiting for you, for ever, and it will hurt a lot!"

This is back to the long discussiowe had on the decription of consequences rather than the direct threat. Yes there is a threat of damnation, but no individual or mainstream church is threatening you. We have been over this a few pages back. And the bit you wrote seems to be the playground equivalent.

Good, I am glad we agree that some unprovable idea - let's call it God - has influenced a group of "people" to impose the threat of eternal damnation upon other people, unless they obey the rules set by the "people" in charge.

What has been said the group of people are not imposing the threat of eternal damnation they are merely telling you that one exists. It is not there's to decide who is damned and who is saved. Saxon Rider had it clear early on.

From grum's link:

Let us here the call and respond.

CM, if you were a good Catholic, you'd be evangelising too.

http://www.catholic.org/hf/faith/story.php?id=40083
br />

Even if I were, i might consider whether or not i do as the pope opines, it does not seem integral to catholicism

You cannot equate religion and science.

Yet there are plenty of religious scientists.

How would you describe yourself then? Christian? Muslim? Agnostic?

Yes, i know what religion he was, i was asking how he described himself now, he got it. But thanks for your input

How would you describe yourself then? Christian? Muslim? Agnostic?

Yes, i know what religion he was, i was asking how he described himself now, he got it. But thanks for your input

[url= http://dawonderful.blogspot.co.uk/2011/08/why-im-better-than-you-part-1-of-loads.html ]I'm a massivley lapsed catholic.[/url]

Just clicked on that. He kinda lost me at 'spackeristic'. Cock.