[Closed] Catholic Church and other religions!

Reasonable sure at least some of them would have identified as catholic- wearing celtic strips. But that's a bit of a leap, i didn't ask what flavour of nutjob they were.

Ah.. semantic point.. you were TOLD that you were condemned to hell, but afaik only God can actually condemn you, no?

Actually, the RC church would not even know if you were condemned or not. So would not be able to twll any individual if they were condemned. Hence i am surprised to hear people say they have been told this.

Reasonable sure at least some of them would have identified as catholic- wearing celtic strips. But that's a bit of a leap, i didn't ask what flavour of nutjob they were.

Well, next time you should. Otherwise you end up tarring everyone with the same brush.

Yes, because what those crazy nutjobs said is completely different from when the Catholic Church says you will burn in eternal hell for not following the commandments

Erm... Yes. I really can't see why you think the ditinction is trivial.

So Grum, where do the RCs argue that you will burn in hell if you do not follow the 10Cs?

CharlieMungus - Member

Otherwise you end up tarring everyone with the same brush.

Oh dear.

THM - already quoted in this thread. From catholic.com

"If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment" (Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).

Lots more similar stuff here.

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-hell-there-is

Oh dear

Well, it must be Stephen Fry, after all Oscar Wilde is dead. you make a very good point, well said.

Oh dear.

"If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment" (Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).

10 commandments aren't the same as what Jesus said, are they?

Oh dear.

Everyone else has played very nicely in this thread. Except you, young man.

Lots more similar stuff here.

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-hell-there-is

Including this...

Thus the issue that some will go to hell is decided, but the issue of who in particular will go to hell is undecided.

unless I missed the post, that all of these cases, what has been identified is that here doctrine might tell people under what circumstances they are condemned which is different to condemining them. I was asking for ( and still am really) examples more like the one Northwind posted, but spoke by someone in the Catholic Church

But not a member of the RC church (Rowan Williams)? Why not accuse him of opposition to women bishops as well? That would be just as inaccurate.

so I think that it is only fair that you are accurate when accusing it/them of something.

But seriously, why the angst about hell, it has no relevance to you at all since you are an aethism. Why worry about others telling you that you will be separated from something that you know doesn't exist. It makes no sense to be agitated by that whatsoever.

It was answered before I dont think i claimed to be loosing sleep over it or "angst" what i said was the mesasage that my moral code is so bad that i will go to hell is not a nice one [ hence CM asked for examples that are still not good enough]. Do i believe it no - I dont believe white supremacists message of aryan superiority either but i find that offensive/not that nice as well
- we debated it a lot of pages back

Seriously Charlinemungus, let me just recap.

CharlieMungus - Member

Has anyone given an example of an individual telling them they are immoral and condemned to hell?

Me: Yes, with example.

You: Inexplicably accused me of "tarring everyone with the same brush"

Me: Oh dear

This is "not playing nicely"? I do apologise for answering your question.

10 commandments aren't the same as what Jesus said, are they?

For example lex talions [ eye for an eye] was countered with "turn to him the other cheek"
He was a bit nicer and a bit less fire and brimstone hence good samaritan etc
I know of no christian faith that rejects the 10 commandments though there probably is one somewhere

Me: Yes, with example.

You: Inexplicably accused me of "tarring everyone with the same brush"

Me: Oh dear

This is "not playing nicely"?

Maybe you missed the pint where we were talking about Catholics.
You also missed out the bit in the conversation where you assumed that some of them were catholic and that you didn't ask the what flavour of 'nut job' they were. That was the tarry not nice bit. But you seemed to have omitted that from your summary of our conversation.

tbh I have no idea why everyone has suddenly fixated on catholics as opposed to religious all of a sudden. I have not done this

Well it's a key word in the title and at the start of the discussion, I said i was surprised that anyone had condemed anyone else to hell, and that it was unlikely to be a Catholic as the Catholic Church have never done this. It is not useful to discuss beliefs when the belief under discussion keeps changing. Okwe drifted somewhat with the CofE in school, but that's probably ok, though i know less about them and their beliefs.

Thanks Grum, I had missed that. I guess I will have to weigh that quote up against the Cathecism (Q171) which states,

"We show that we love God by keeping his commandments, for Christ says, "if you love Me, keep My commandments."

Now I know that I am not a RC, so may not understand this. But like the definition of Faith I gave earlier, there seems a very clear element of free will here and one's choice to love a God. I am happy to be corrected but the RC's own owner manual still does not seem (IMO) to be doing what you accuse it of.

JY, I would suggest that the thread title gives a strong view why there is a fixation?

CharlieMungus - Member

Maybe you missed the pint where we were talking about Catholics.
You also missed out the bit in the conversation where you assumed that some of them were catholic and that you didn't ask the what flavour of 'nut job' they were. That was the tarry not nice bit.

Oh, the bit where you didn't specify catholics, but expected people to know what you meant? And then the bit where you imagined I'd said something I didn't? Fair enough.

I have inferred, not assumed, that they [i]may[/i] have been catholics. Scotland + christian fundamentalism + Celtic strip = strong likelihood of catholicism. But where you got "tarring everyone with the same brush" I simply don't know.

JY, I would suggest that the thread title gives a strong view why there is a fixation?

All this talk of hell makes me glad to be Orthodox. Our definition of "hell" is simply the "absence of God". Can't see that upsetting anyone!

Exactly Vicky. It's odd that people choose to find this quite so upsetting!

Yes, and the concept of free will is a really important one.

...don't I am currently supervising a determinism essay, hence the need for some STW distraction!!!

Exactly Vicky. It's odd that people choose to find this quite so upsetting!

'Choose to find it upsetting' is a bit of mealy-mouthed phrase. You could just as well argue Christians are 'choosing to be upset' when people dismiss Christianity as nonsense etc.

Again I dont think anyone is actually getting upset about it - why do you keep using words to describe others views that they have not used and give them causes never mentioned?

EDIT:Actually grum is right can i be rude about them and their beliefs and all will be fine as after all they think i am wrong?
Its not a great argument tbh

I don't get upset when people say Christianity is nonsense. People are free to believe whatever they want. One of the few things that gets my back up is when people say that science and religion are incompatible, and assume that all Christians are Creationists and don't believe in evolution.

No offence but the knowledge gained from science is somewhat at odds with the view that god made us [ in HIS image]and everything in the universe ,everything revolves around us and the age etc

You may wish to somehow merge them but either the god creation story is true or evolution/science/age of the universe is true
i dont see how you make them both "true" and they are incompatabile as they give different reasons for "why we are here"

Ok - lets forget the upset bit. It's a sport obviously. Religion-bashing is STW's chosen sport followed closely by MTB itself. But I love defending the seemingly/apparently indefensible! And what a page padder - for which I am guilty this time!

Creation (outside the odd version found in some places) and evolution are not necessarily incompatible BTW, but that's another story and its time for an hour of weekly [u]compulsory[/u]* force-feeding*, indoctrination* and child-abuse* (sic) now, so must rush!

* Your choice which, if any, are accurate.

The Bible uses allegory, hence I don't take Genesis literally. I am a biochemist, and my scientific understanding does not compromise my belief in God. I believe that a good scientist keeps an open mind about everything, anyway, for science itself involves a lot of theory and assumption.
All I ask is for atheists to show me that same respect as I show them.

so we all evolved from a common ancestor and god made us all as well

The mental gymastic a believer will go to try andfget know facts into their belief system is near unlimited but we cannot both have evolved from a common ancestor and god made all the things on the earth and then us in his image - it fair skips the evolution of the universe and there is little mention of dinosaurs but hey ho they are not incompatablle

Tbh whenm they can believe god is all loviong and all powerful and suffering exist they probably do actualy believe that genesis and evoltuiton can somehow meld together coherently- its no worse a fudge than some of the other thinking they do.

I realise that most realise evolution is irrefutable and then try and fit it in with creation and not reject the opening part of the bible but this belief is no more real/coherent than their belief in god

Oh, the bit where you didn't specify catholics, but expected people to know what you meant? And then the bit where you imagined I'd said something I didn't? Fair enough.

Carholicism has been a strong theme in this, as above.
And seriously? You want to argue the toss about 'assume' and 'infer'? You want a debate about how much evidence there was?
I don't know what you are referring to with me imagining something, but i don't really mind that you think that.

Either way, it's not contiributing much to the discussion, I'mhappy to continue if you chose to engage properly.

Either way, it's not contiributing much to the discussion, I'mhappy to continue if you chose to engage properly.

I am a little disappointed in myself tbh, I took it all at face value 🙁

so we all evolved from a common ancestor and god made us all as well

The mental gymastic a believer will go to try andfget know facts into their belief system is near unlimited but we cannot both have evolved from a common ancestor and god made all the things on the earth and then us in his image - it fair skips the evolution of the universe and there is little mention of dinosaurs but hey ho they are not incompatablle

Tbh whenm they can believe god is all loviong and all powerful and suffering exist they probably do actualy believe that genesis and evoltuiton can somehow meld together coherently- its no worse a fudge than some of the other thinking they do.

I realise that most realise evolution is irrefutable and then try and fit it in with creation and not reject the opening part of the bible but this belief is no more real/coherent than their belief in god

This is part of the reason we need to chose which denomination we are arguing about and why some of me are 'fixating' on catholicism

This is of interest and needs some thought

From here http://nineteensixty-four.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/schisms-of-religiously-unaffiliated.html

It’s interesting that so much of the rhetoric of New Atheism seems to really be directed at Evangelical Christians—those specifically who take the Bible literally word for word. Many New Atheists seem to think anyone who is religious holds similar beliefs. Yet, this cannot be equated with the mainstream Catholic point of view. After all St. Augustine wrote about allegorical interpretations of Genesis in the 4th Century CE. As Pope Benedict XVI has argued much more recently:

Currently, I see in Germany, but also in the United States, a somewhat fierce debate raging between so-called "creationism" and evolutionism, presented as though they were mutually exclusive alternatives: those who believe in the Creator would not be able to conceive of evolution, and those who instead support evolution would have to exclude God. This antithesis is absurd because, on the one hand, there are so many scientific proofs in favour of evolution which appears to be a reality we can see and which enriches our knowledge of life and being as such. But on the other, the doctrine of evolution does not answer every query, especially the great philosophical question: where does everything come from? And how did everything start which ultimately led to man? I believe this is of the utmost importance.

Junkyard, I'm not sure I can be @rsed continuing this debate unless you can contribute something over and above simply insinuating that I'm some kind of idiot who compromises my beliefs and understanding.I'm not offended by you, and I could go into a lot more detail about Orthodox beliefs and science. My priest even gives lectures on science and God.
However, I don't believe it's worth entering into a debate without mutual respect on both sides.

teamhurtmore - Member

It's a sport obviously. Religion-bashing is STW's chosen sport followed closely by MTB itself.

As someone who has attended marxist-leninist education/talks/discussions, for a period literally spanning decades, I have never encountered hostility towards religion which even begins to approach the levels that it does on here.

Even Karl Marx, possibly the most famous atheist in history, had a more relaxed attitude to religion than some of the Guardian-reading wannabe lefties that post on here 🙂

Interestingly, I know a lot of people who are atheist because they say there is no proof for the existence of God, but are superstitious.

a lot of people who are atheist because they say there is no proof for the existence of God, but are superstitious.

It's bad luck to be superstitious..

This too

The Catholic Church includes Atheists among the faculty at the Pontifical Academy of Sciences that advises popes and cardinals on the latest findings of science.

It's not so much the lack of repect but the lack knowledge about religion which i find wearing. It's fine arguing against something but it helps to understanding something about the thing against which you are arguing.

Claims are made about the scientific position without any self awareness.

I believe

Credo

1. The universe has a set of rules that it follows.
2. Through experimentation and reasoning we can determine those rules, or find approximations which we can gradually improve.

It's not so much the lack of repect but the lack knowledge about religion which i find wearing. It's fine arguing against something but it helps to understanding something about the thing against which you are arguing.

Oh so now you're going to add haughty condescension to your list of arguing techniques, while you accuse others of not playing nice.

Either way, it's not contiributing much to the discussion, I'mhappy to continue if you chose to engage properly.

Oh the ironing etc.

Junkyard, I'm not sure I can be @rsed continuing this debate unless you can contribute something over and above simply insinuating that I'm some kind of idiot who compromises my beliefs and understanding.

I'm not offended by you, and I could go into a lot more detail about Orthodox beliefs and science. My priest even gives lectures on science and God.

However, I don't believe it's worth entering into a debate without mutual respect on both sides

I know a lot of people who are atheist because they say there is no proof for the existence of God, but are superstitious

vickypea - Member

Junkyard, I'm not sure I can be @rsed continuing this debate unless you can contribute something over and above simply insinuating that I'm some kind of idiot who compromises my beliefs and understanding.I'm not offended by you, and I could go into a lot more detail about Orthodox beliefs and science. My priest even gives lectures on science and God.

Ah, Vicky! I know your priest very well. I take it you're in the Greater Manchester area?

Grum, i was responding to vickypea. It wasn't an arguing technique, it was just a statement. It didn't contribute to the discussion, happy to admit that, but it wasn't intended to. The quote above was in reference to an ongoing side discussion, so, not really the same thing. Though i guess this may become a side discussion now. To be honest I'd be more interested in tour views on the bits about rhe pope and evolution and the idea of science being predicated on two core beliefs

Have you considered refuting my argument with facts, logic or some reasoning? I dont see how you can take the "facts" in the bible and acientfic knowlegde and combine them coherently. I may be wrong but that reply wont convince me.

Depends which 'facts' you mean. Genesis is not seen as facts, by RC at least.

Junkyard - Member

Have you considered refuting my argument with facts, logic or some reasoning? I dont see how you can take the "facts" in the bible and acientfic knowlegde and combine them coherently. I may be wrong but that reply wont convince me.

The difficulty here, Junkyard - and anyone else who may be reading this - is that I could never type fast enough to offer a clear explanation, followed by a proper Q&A, of the Catholic/Orthodox faith on here. The same could be said about almost any subject I felt passionately about. There are simply too many contributors with too many opinions that would make it almost impossible to keep on track and get the salient points heard.

That said, I would be happy to talk in a public forum. There are few more challenging environments than STW.

At the same time, I have found the general tone on this thread relatively respectful and congenial, whereas my experience in the past has been that there have been some threads filled with downright vitriol against religion and those who followed one.

Religion:

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Audio Clip:

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"With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil—that takes religion.” Steven Weinberg