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I am surprised that everyone is so accepting, welcoming even, of bad law that they acknowledge doesn’t work.
See also: cannabis.
As you are all aware there is no cannabis in the UK thanks to our strict laws.
Jeez Johnx2, if you're going to have it stuck in your head you might as well have this mighty version rather than that insipid cover
Another +1 for Batfink's post
I suppose in response to the OP's original question, yes your colleague was correct and 'EDCing' an opinel is an unnecessary risk regardless of whether or not your specific demographics magically protect you from police interest.
If, like many of us, you are a 'family man' how do you think a potential conviction for carrying a bladed article is going to affect you and your family? All so you can slice a tomato?
I'm almost as stale, male and pale as the OP and I don't think it's wise to assume we get immunity on the basis of how unthreatening we believe we look.
might as well have this mighty version rather than that insipid cover
Fair
Until the side fell off my white Swiss Army Knife SD, it went everywhere with my keys. Perfect tool for lots of things, nobody is going to quibble over a 3cm blade, tweezers and scissors. The irony is I bought it in Geneva airport airside. It never posed a problem travelling. And it will slice a tomato if necessary.
My original (yes version 1!) Leatherman stays at home or is carried out on the trail in a rucksack. Non-locking blade but I’d not risk carrying it as hand luggage. It’s used all the time and lives in THE kitchen drawer everyone has.
The point of it is to make it possible to arrest someone if they find them with an inappropriate knife. In this way it works.
Police have always had the powers to arrest someone with an offensive weapon in public. One example but there are plenty of others going back to the 1800s:
The Prevention of Crime Act 1953 prohibits the possession in any public place of an offensive weapon without lawful authority or reasonable excuse.
And yet, every couple of years a new law knife law is introduced. There are dozens of new laws or amendments to old ones. Not in the expectation it will allow arrests (because that power is already in place). Not in the expectation it will reduce crime (because it clearly doesn't) but to give a gullible public the false impression that they are tackling knife crime. 'Let's ban knives with scary names, because Mrs Miggins has read about Zombie knives and Katanas in the Sun'. 'OK, but logically shouldn't we then ban axes, meat cleavers etc'. Err no.... because reasons. Throwing more and more ineffective law at the symptom of a serious problem without tackling the causes is cynical and immoral imo. That's my issue with it. That and the fact so many otherwise smart people are taken in by it.
Just to weigh into the debate with a couple of thoughts from a (former) professional viewpoint.
The law states quite simply that you cannot have a sharply pointed or bladed article with you in a public place unless you have a good reason to do so.
The onus is on you to prove that good reason.
So a chef on their way to work with a big bag of knives, or a carpet fitter on their way home from work with a Stanley knife, or a darts player on their way to, at and on their way home from the pub all have good reason to be in possession of sharply pointed or bladed articles. See also folk out with hunting knives if they are actually out hunting etc etc.
However, a carpet fitter in the pub after work can't have their stanley knife with them and rely on the now expired good reason. Neither can Jockey Wilson rely on his darts player status in a football ground.
The legislation allows for the carrying of a folding pocket knife as long as the cutting edge of the blade doesn't exceed 7.62cm (3 inches) . SO we can have a small pocket knife with us if we choose, and we don't have to justify it to anybody, still less argumentative folk on cycling forums.
I think the locking blade/fixed blade thing has been done to death but bear this in mind. A stale pale male etc etc may not be likely to be stopped and searched, but there are circumstances under which the locking emergency tomato opinel in your pocket could come to the attention of the police. In a former life I booked any number of drink drivers into custody who had small locknives on key rings, and occasionally opinels specifically, etc etc in their possession. They were at that point committing the offence. Just one example of how it may come and bite you.
Now bear in mind that Police Policy on knife offences is one of the areas where discretion around charging decisions is greatly reduced. Many simple statutory and either way offences can be decided by the custody officer or an Inspector. That level is removed for knife possession. The decision is to refer to the CPS for a charging/disposal decision, and the option of an informal disposal only applies in very exceptional circumstances.
Now add in the CPS guidelines on charging decisions:
https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/offensive-weapons-knives-bladed-and-pointed-articles
and the sentencing guidelines for folk up in front of the beak:
(EDIT can't post the link for some reason, but it explains the different sentencing options, diluting the offence from someone out to use a knife to threaten or cause harm, down to the bloke with the opinel who will end up with a fine or community sentence, but a conviction nevertheless)
and you'll see why your Opinel may not land you in prison, but it is going to leave you with a criminal conviction.
TL;DR?
If you insist on carrying a knife for emergency tomato purposes, make sure it's a small folding pocket knife. (I refuse to call it EDC by the way....)
That sentencing link, now I've managed to create it, has some interesting social commentary on the different types of "carrying a knife" scenarios and how to deal with them.
It also opens a debate around the current public outcry for mandatory prison sentences. Public opinion is all very well, but if you are screaming for mandatory prison sentences for those carrying knives, you'd better not forget to take your darts out of your pocket before you go clubbing.
Thanks for your input Scapegoat. A little sobering in some ways. I will now go and remove the Leatherman I've had for 35 years from the bag in my car which also contains a torch, warm clothing, blanket, tow rope, etc.
That is sadly the real effect of this legislation, whilst the roadman with a 9" chefs knife in his joggers doesn't give a flying ****.
Looks like the Toologic 3" must go :-(. Has a slip liner lock :-(. It was in the bike bag for years and has been used many times when out and about riding. Clearing vegitation, stuff in the cassettes, sharpening pencils for drawing, hack and bodging as and when etc.. Even cutting apples in half, never a tomatoe ;-).
Very useful tool along with screwdriver, folding saw and secatuers. When riding the local trails not BPW.
It even has a fire steel, never used in the wilds of Gloucestershire.
Might get a small Swiss Army Knife for the bag instead. Don't need any hassle.
Once again the wallies have affected my way of life 🙁
Next they will be banning creasote and sodium cholrate;-). And crisps.
you’d better not forget to take your darts out of your pocket before you go clubbing.
clubbing whom and with what?
the roadman with a 9″ chefs knife in his joggers
wait until you see what I've got hidden in my Dryrobe...
Thank you scapegoat - finally a sensible post. Not a sensible law mind you, I agree with many on here that it does nothing to prevent knife crime and only serves to help 'stale pale and male' old men have knives close on their fingers whilst cutting something stubborn.
Your post above all others has ensured I won't carry my Opinel outside the house unless I'm going camping and then it will be in the boot of the car. I'ts a shame as I like them and I actually do feel its an erosion of my personal freedoms - I'd give up even carrying a SAK in a heartbeat mind you if it could be proved that this law was protecting the population from knife crime and young people from needlessly going to prison but I don't think it does.
I am surprised that everyone is so accepting, welcoming even, of bad law that they acknowledge doesn’t work.
Yeah and remove dangerous driving laws while you’re at it. In fact let’s just get rid of all laws.
Hm, I don't carry one in my pocket, but I do leave one in the car.
Yeah and remove dangerous driving laws while you’re at it. In fact let’s just get rid of all laws.
I like you Drac, you're usually a voice of reason, but that's a ridiculous thing to say. Because I question badly drafted law which has failed in its aims, I am advocating repealing all laws? Really? FFS.
Spot on Scapegoat I don’t think anyone has claimed absolutely no knives. Just weird carrying one in office just in case they fancy a tomato.
Leatherman Arc today, sometimes on my belt, but got an awkward belt to fit it on today, so in my pocket/on site office desk.
Fisher Space pen, bit kit, ratchet driver.
Used the scissors and blade so far today.
Carried from digs to car, that's it. Would I take it to the pub, probably not (maybe local, but not town centre), would I take it to the football, definitely not
What Drac is (I think ably) pointing out I think is that the existence of the law is to give the police to tools to do their job efficiently. It does not mean all 'roadmen' will automatically have nothing hidden in their pants. But it means when they are confronted the police have something reasonable to work with. Some middle aged (and I suspect bearded) blokes might get their knickers in a twist that their lifetime habit of carrying some particular knife is now (well, 5 years or so ago) illegal. So be it. In a similar way there are plenty of occasions I could drive in a manner that would be illegal but would 'probably' be safe in that specific context using my own judgment. But the world just can't work like that because 70 odd million people's good judgment involves a lot of bad judgment. But in a world where knife crime is an increasing problem, a law that does not create too much hassle for your bobby confronting said tooled up youth, I'm good with. That rogue tomato is not getting a savaging with a lockable leatherman might just live another day (or 30 seconds until you find an alternative) is a reasonable downside. The fact that there are not enough of those policeman and the community at large (parents, I'm looking at you here) to make knife carrying less risky from a chance of getting caught perspective is a totally different conversation.
But back to the main thrust (pun intended) of the argument. All of the bearded boomers 'needs' for an EDC, if they feel naked without one, seem to be met by a small SAK. You might 'want' to carry something more manly or more niche hewn from spartan's ear lobe - but you don't need it. And if you do, because you have a genuinely good reason for it - happy days, you still can. Chefs are still commuting to work with an arsenal of death wrapped up in canvas role. Bushcraft instructors are still walking into schools with knives without the school going into lockdown.
Leatherman Arc today, sometimes on my belt, but got an awkward belt to fit it on today, so in my pocket/on site office desk.
Thats what I bought my brother for xmas, he's a roofer and carries it every day on his belt and thinks its great, giving we live in rural galloway I guess he's fine, if they ever search his van I think the axe, shovel, cable ties and numerous rolls of duct tape will cause more alarm
I've been surprised to find that France has even stricter knife laws than the UK. It doesn't seem to matter the blade size or the lockingness of it. And 'The carrying and transporting of such weapons without legitimate reason is normally prohibited.' - carrying meaning having in your pocket and transportation meaning with you, but out of reach. However, there's still the grey area get-out of legitimate excuse - plus, case law states 'French culture' knives like the Opinel, Laguiole and Swiss Army aren't considered weapons - but you'd better be near a sausage and some delicious cheese. I've been on rides in France where we've stopped for lunch (a proper 'down-tools' sit down for half an hour) and EVERYONE in the group started pulling out saucisson, fromage, baguettes and Opinels... So, in short, it's stricter here, but still as confusing and open to interpretation.
I shall, however, go and swap the Opinel No.10 (the big one with the corkscrew) in the boot of my car for a pair of Tuff Cut scissors and a regular corkscrew...
I think the locking blade/fixed blade thing has been done to death but bear this in mind. A stale pale male etc etc may not be likely to be stopped and searched, but there are circumstances under which the locking emergency tomato opinel in your pocket could come to the attention of the police. In a former life I booked any number of drink drivers into custody who had small locknives on key rings, and occasionally opinels specifically, etc etc in their possession. They were at that point committing the offence. Just one example of how it may come and bite you.
Is this specifically on your person, or in your vehicle? SAK (which yes is a non locking, short enough blade) generally lives in my work bag which will be in the boot. On the occasional work trip that is possible by public transport, I sometimes move it from the front organiser pen pocket to deep within the bag.
I do occasionally have a plasterboard saw in the bag. Such a thin flexible blade I doubt you could actually stab anyone wearing more than a t-shirt. But it looks like an 8inch serated zombie knife. The airport style bag scanners at Sky London offices were quite surprised by it.
I like you Drac, you’re usually a voice of reason, but that’s a ridiculous thing to say.
Thanke. Yeah it’s just my normal retort.
The law is clumsy, it’s a deterrent and to make prosecution easy for those they identify as a risk. However, without it there we little be more spontaneous attacks from the red mist attacks. Knife wounds are horrendous and despite what CZ much more dangerous than a screwdriver.
The laws isn’t perfect, causes a little inconvenience for slicing apples and cheese but it’s required.
Thank you scapegoat – finally a sensible post. Not a sensible law mind you, I agree with many on here that it does nothing to prevent knife crime and only serves to help ‘stale pale and male’ old men have knives close on their fingers whilst cutting something stubborn.
That's one of the more ridiculous things to come out of this. I used to carry a locking blade knife because;reasons.
When this legislation was introduced in 1988 (section 139 Criminal Justice Act 1988) it was widely assumed that a lock knife was a folding knife. However, some pedantic **** decided they'd have their moment of fame and in 1993 we had the stated case of Harris - v-DPP which determined that a blade with a locking mechanism was fixed. This ruling has has a couple of goes at an appeal, but has been upheld.
So my fingers are still at risk when I'm slicing tomatoes
I've never heard the term "zombie knife" before this thread so I googled it. The third hit was (of course) The Sun puffing out its chest for having them banned; the second Wikipedia; and the first Amazon.
Clicking the Amazon link yields these gems:
^^The Ravenous Tomahawk does give me the munchies for zombie flesh if I'm honest.
Cool that it's unisex too, subtle taste difference between male and female brain matter.
going off on a tangent - regarding tomahawks
I can vaguely remember reading something a while back that determined that a tomahawk combined with a small sheild in the off hand, was the best/most versatile armament for fighting (out of formation).
I doubt the average roadman is reading treatises on pre-firearm combat techniques, so I wonder where this new obsession has come from.
If my memory serves me correctly, from playing many zombie game. A zombie knife is like a knuckle duster with a blade.
Just weird carrying one in office just in case they fancy a tomato.
I suppose this is down to parameters and the type of person who thinks critically. Not saying for a second you dont.
.
'Offices' That workplace where everything can be found readily to hand. Yes ?. No of course not, and in fact you're doing well if you can find a teaspoon let alone a knife sharp enough to slice a tomato, which coincidentally is one of those examples used to show the sharpness of any kitchen knife in a thousand tv ads across the land.
.
So you fancy a tomato or two, and while you'll never see me trying one of those things, I do understand some go for them, but thats not really important.
.
So you can bite at it, risking juice down your workshirt, which could cause an eyebrow or two to be raised when you get called in for a boss meet, and the connotations that might imply, or at the very least down your chin, so you now also need find a paper towel, or such, again not something in ready supply in the 'shared' kitchen.
.
But lets just say there is a kitchen type knife sitting in the drawer, the one that was bought from Asda for cutting the cake at Mary's leaving do, but has long given up its association with having a keen edge, especially one keen enough to perfectly slice that principle of fruit skin.
You have the tomato, you have the knife, which is blunt and probably as much use as a teaspoon (if you were lucky enough to find one of those also).
.
Result, some smashed thing on the plate that once resembled a tomato, but not no longer offers any resemblance to those lovely cleanly sliced tomatoes segments, indicative of every tv knife commercial.
And all for the want of a sharp knife...
I think Benjamin Franklin would have owned and carried a pocket knife, don't you 😕
A zombie knife is like a knuckle duster with a blade.
As far as I can gather, it's a knife with both a blade edge and a serrate, in dayglo colours, with "for ****ting people" written on the handle.
Batfink has it.
Countzero is miles off.
I don't see as they are mutually exclusive opinions. They're both right IMHO.
I have several tin-openers that just will not open modern cans because of the way the rim is constructed
See, whilst I'm mostly with you on the subject of knives, I'm struggling to come up with a scenario where N+1 applies to can openers. Surely the optimum quantity here is "one"?
And all for the want of a
sharpknife sharpener…
FTFY
If my memory serves me correctly, from playing many zombie game. A zombie knife is like a knuckle duster with a blade.
knuckleduster knife combo has been around since WW1 - called a trench knife
FTFY
Well done 😆
Though I wonder if your workmates might be a tad more concerned to see you sitting at the desk using it.
ayjaydoubleyou
Full Member
going off on a tangent – regarding tomahawksI can vaguely remember reading something a while back that determined that a tomahawk combined with a small sheild in the off hand, was the best/most versatile armament for fighting (out of formation).
I doubt the average roadman is reading treatises on pre-firearm combat techniques, so I wonder where this new obsession has come from.
That's my planned zombie apocalypse "build".
Unfortunately I bet my personal zombie apocalypse will be the type with running zombies, not the stumbling/slow kind. Even the undead have better cardio than me.
"The law is clumsy, it’s a deterrent and to make prosecution easy for those they identify as a risk."
Very much this. Back in the 80s the law was the Prevention of Crime Act 1953. It prohibited carrying offensive weapons. There was 2 categories. Anything designed to cause injury. A bayonet. A knuckle duster etc. The second category was anything the suspect had in their possion that they intended to cause injury with.
" “ offensive weapon ” means any article made or adapted for use for causing injury to the person, or intended by the person having it with him for such use by him"
There were numerous cases in Glasgow of neds being caught late at night in the city centre with Stanley knives in their pocket who were getting not guilty or not proven verdicts at court. A Stanley knife is a tool not a weapon. Meanwhile there were numerous victims being slashed by Stanley knives. Proving intent isn't easy. Unless a knife is out the pocket being brandished you basically need a verbal admission. Surprisingly enough often either no admission was made or it was alleged at court that any admission had been fabricated by the police.
So the law was changed to cover bladed and sharply pointed objects. Which has the unfortunate side effect of sometimes inadvertantly making criminals out of otherwise law abiding members of the public.
A key difference being that rather than the police needing to prove there was intent to use a knife as a weapon the person in possession had either reasonable excuse or lawful authority. And there were stated exceptions. Work purposes religious reasons or part of a national costume IE Skean Dhu.
I’ve been surprised to find that France has even stricter knife laws than the UK.
That doesn't seem to gel with the standard French market stall that always seems to have an excellent selection of flick knives, knuckle dusters, ninja swords and 'zombie knives', next to the selection of gentile Opinels, Laguioles, oyster shuckers etc.!
I can vaguely remember reading something a while back that determined that a tomahawk combined with a small sheild in the off hand, was the best/most versatile armament for fighting (out of formation).
Dunno about that. It is unlikely to do well against a hand and a half sword for example.
Main advantage of tomahawk/other axe variants (outside of dedicated battle axes) is that they are more useful for day to day tasks than a sword and also cheaper.
Just found my "Real Lamb Foot"
Cutting edge length 2.75" from point to choil.
3.25" including choil and ricasso.
Not worth the possible future bother, unless I grind .25" off the end.
or it was alleged at court that any admission had been fabricated by the police.
Yeah thats normal for the police. The phrase they always use as the reason given is 'It's for my own protection' which is an instant conviction.
When I went up to court, thats the phrase the 2 scumbags used for me. and I did not say that in the slightest. I said I'd forgotten it was in there, but they made a big play about the experience of these two liars, one had 20 years, the other something like 22 years experience. NOBODY says 'it's for my own protection Nobody. And according to the cop notes i said 'Its fur ma ain protection' Im from a poshish area and do not use guttural slang, but there it was for all to hear. Utter tosh. Glad to get that out, its been annoying me since the incident.
Other useful cop phrases you may have heard about. "I can smell cannabis" -this then gives them the right to search your car/person. or the all time favourite "STOP RESISTING"- this then means they can pretty much do anything violent to you.
Dunno about that. It is unlikely to do well against a hand and a half sword for example.
Main advantage of tomahawk/other axe variants (outside of dedicated battle axes) is that they are more useful for day to day tasks than a sword and also cheaper.
It may have included aspects of how difficult it was to train/become proficient with it and the cost and difficulty of making it. Was your sword combined with wearable armour for example?
I think Police ask questions like "could someone see X as a weapon?". I'd say you'd have to ask that someone.
I believe "technically" in France you can't have a one-handed opener, locking blade or something like a Spydy hole. Possibly Germany too.
Other useful cop phrases you may have heard about. “I can smell cannabis”
Yeah they tried something similar with myself on a routine stop years ago when I was able to drive my Mk2 Golf Gti, (tyre check, general poke around etc..etc), I replied “of course you can smell cannabis, there’s a half oz of it in my bag”. They were really ****ing disappointed when I showed them my medical license for it.