Forum menu
I would like for people to start thinking for themselves instead of what the "Daily mail" tells them to think.
I suggest you put it down and get a breath of fresh air outside then....
I have nothing constructive to add, but an almost overwhelming desire to post something sanctimonious.
I have some sympathy for the OP (concerned parent) but not so much for his son. He knew he was doing wrong and as such should now pay the penalty.
This is not a tax debate - it's a law breaking issue.
Best of luck OP - not easy being a parent at times!
[i]how much of you car tax is spent on the roads (infrastructure) and ask yourself where the rest is going?[/i]
Uh Oh he said 'car tax'.
Who else will pay for the paysrises I see the MPs are getting.
They do such an amazing job and deserve every penny.
My understanding is that they are actually losing out because their benefits and what expenses they can claim are being cut?
My understanding is that they are actually losing out because their benefits and what expenses they can claim are being cut?
I guess the extremely generous pension scheme and subsidised food and drink will be some consolation.
Stop paying tax & buy a fat bike.
You'll need those big tyres once the roads disintegrate.
😈
I guess the extremely generous pension scheme and subsidised food and drink will be some consolation.
Well if it means that they have to pay to get their moat cleaned or keep their mistress in a Kensington flat, it's a small battle won. 😉
Iolo
We walked in the cold air
Freezing breath on a window pane
Lying and waiting
A man in the dark in a picture frame
So mystic and soulful
A voice reaching out in a piercing cry
It stays with you until
The feeling has gone only you and I
It means nothing to me
This means nothing to me 😉
can't tell if trolling or stupid......
Ah well if you can't make mistakes when your young when can you!??!
When your young its hard to refuse temptation and the obvious savings that can directly and immediatly benefit your social life.
I'd rather red diesel to drug dealing - look on the bright side 
I can't be bothered to read all of the posts (some are probably quite knowledgable on this).
I always thought the fine could run into thousands - but perhaps this is more aimed at large-scale exploitation - maybe customs should visit the farmer who was selling it?
I thought that the rationale was that it was such a tempting thing to do, and that you were relatively unlikely to get caught, so the deterrent was made quite severe in financial terms?
On a slightly more amusing/annoying note, I had a mate who worked for customs. He told me a story about how the 'oils and fuels boys' had got a bit gung-ho and 'impounded' some blokes car. It was something to do with 'red', I think. Anyway they just parked it up outside the building. When they were told to move it as they probably shouldn't have done it in the first place, they drove it around the corner onto some double-yellows before calling the bloke back.
Probably an apocryphal tale, but one that still amuses me.
Lawnmanmx has a point 80p a litre is a bit off . When you consider the infrastructure cost the social cost and health costs of car ownership .The anti social use of motor vehicles and their local and global environmental impact. the duty needs to be at least doubled.
What has only barely been mentioned so far are the following details-
A lot of 'red' on the dodgy market is fuel stolen from farms and yards, often then distributed in a startlingly sophisticated manner.
In some parts of the UK, dodgy diesel is controlled by organised crime.
Red, or for that matter heating kerosene are both properly damaging to your modern diesel car engine. Both fuels are very rough, short on 'additives' and dirty.
OP- tell him to get himself down to the HMRC office responsible pronto and get it settled as amicably as possible. Think damage limitation at this stage and make sure that he tells them the truth.
Oh aye, and note that HMRC do not write the laws on tax avoidance. Westminster chooses how to legislate and then controls the staffing budget too.
Running the risk with Red Diesel is on par with young drivers not having insurance.
The fine they receive is substantially less than the cost of doing it properly in the first place.
Probably more so for insurance though
I always thought the fine could run into thousands
And a fine for letting a dog s*&t in the street can run into the hundreds, but who has ever heard of a single thoughtless owner being punished at all, never mind getting the highest fine possible.
Anyway, I digress...
what tomaso said +1
Young and foolish yes.
I don't see why all the sanctimonious-track-world response though.
Ecky-Thump - MemberI don't see why all the sanctimonious-track-world response though
well you are on sanctimoniuostrackworld.com
well you are on sanctimoniuostrackworld.com ...
...and most of us pay all of our taxes, hence reducing our disposable income.
The only time I used red diesel in my banger (many years ago, and yes I know, slapped wrists) it was a *very* cold winters day and it waxed my injectors up.
The local copper happened to pass as the bonnet was open, and - presumably because of my guilty look - gave me a look to say he knew exactly what I'd done 😳
As above, I personally wouldn't run red diesel in a modern car. Hope you get it sorted OP.
crankboy - Member
Lawnmanmx has a point 80p a litre is a bit off . When you consider the infrastructure cost the social cost and health costs of car ownership .The anti social use of motor vehicles and their local and global environmental impact. the duty needs to be at least doubled.
Nice to see you volunteering to pay for all the buses to run several times a day to all the small villages in Wiltshire, then.
You're not? Well, they'll have to go back to using their cars, then; one bus each way a day is hardly useful to most people.
countzero so what do people in a small village need to travel daily for?
To the people that believe red is bad for a modern diesel engine, utter rubbish.
1 it come out of the same refinery tanks as white
2 tractors and plant machinery also use modern engines
countzero so what do people in a small village need to travel daily for?
Same reason you need to travel? Work, shops, school, that kind of thing?
local shops? local work? local school??? cheap petrol kills the rural economy . There is a 2010 report by the council "Rural Wiltshire an Overview."
Basically a prosperous area with lots of urban incommers pricing out locals and changing local comunities, If more people were using the local busses for local needs then more busses would run .
Our local pub and shop both shut down in the time we lived in auchenblae- in the end we moved out too because it basically meant that we were forced to travel 12 miles to get anything.
Shame as the shop was really good and not priced stupid.
The pub blew up- not sure if it was an insurance job or what. But it was never rebuilt.
Noticed alot of houses forsale or going into disrepair.
Shame.
But your right the 1 bus a day and that took 2 hours to travel to stoney was a bit of a joke, because we couldnt use it we didnt use it. I used to cycle to stonehaven and get the train.
We use our new local village as much as we can, still cant do the weekly shop in spar but its first stop if we need anythng outside the weekly shop. And we use the bus loads for going into town for the cinema or a couple drinks - its a really good service up here on deeside and always busy + runs up to midnight , 2km walk at our end but its barable and on clear nights awesome due to no light pollution.
Lawnmanmx has a point 80p a litre is a bit off
OK. Take the duty off fuel and shove income tax or VAT up by a few percent.
It's just general taxation. And you'll still be paying it. Currently those who pollute the most pay the most, which seems quite equitable.
Well I once heard you could get the red dye out so no-one would know?
esselgruntfuttock - MemberWell I once heard you could get the red dye out so no-one would know?
Used to be you run it through cat litter to remove the dye, tbh the red is not the main indicator, there's a chemical added to show it's duty free. As mentioned before a lot of diesel scams are run by former terrorist, organised crime gangs et al
You can filter it through fullers earth and that cleans it up
As mentioned before a lot of diesel scams are run by former terrorist, organised crime gangs et al
Slab Murphy
Used to be you run it through cat litter to remove the dye
Cat litter is probably one of the few substances more expensive per cubic centimetre than UK fuel.
Strong acid into the red fuel followed by a strong alkali wash might do the trick. Then just dump the resulting waste liquor in SBCs in the middle of the countryside for the loacal authorities to clean up. Seems to be the way the paramiltaries do it over here 🙂
A mate got done for running his truck on red a couple of years ago, he'd been doing it for years, but as it was first time he'd been caught, and I think he blagged it (worked in the forestry industry), they fined him about £700, no impound and that was it, they said if they caught him again it would be much worse.
Very popular in South Armagh (other rural red diesel hot spots are available), HMRC are even taking action and prosecuting people there now which they wouldn't have dared do not so long ago.
Been stopped twice in 2 years on the exact same weekend (weekend after Easter) in Kirkby Stephen in the pickup for red diesel checks. They've never tested for chemical markers, simply just syphoned some fuel into a clear bottle and had a look.
They're always very polite and it doesn't bother me as I'd never use red.
There seemed to be VOSA checks all over the place round Co Durham on Wednesday. I passed 3 different check points with police pulling people over - 1 at the VOSA weighbridge just off the A19 and a couple more over nr Durham.
We'll...... Thanks fellas for all the comment and info...... I am taking my son out tomorrow to have a frank and open (!) further discussion...... Then we are off to meet with the HMRC so fingers crossed...... He's been told on the phone that there is a £500 fine and car release fee of around £150......... If they are satisfied after interviewing him...... So once that's over I will be glad to know what is what .... Either way.
Young people these days generally seem to lack a lot of things a generation older seemed to have...... Oh how I could go on........ It's been a very difficult 24 hours I must admit, and his mum is beside herself anxious and worried, upset and angry with him..... At 22 yes he really should know better ..... We have sat tonight beating ourselves up.... Bad parents? Made things too easy for him ? Been to hard on him? Not hard enough? Not seen underlying issues early? Affected by the death of his beloved Grandad? Did I spend too much time in his younger life setting up and running our business ?
Etc. etc....
Feeling incredibly frustrated and down about this and all the related issues to be honest....
:-(.
Don't beat yourself up. Young men do stupid things with no encouragement necessary. And I know as I include myself in that group.
In future tell him to take part in more STW-approved forms of tax evasion like import duty fraud. 😉
The dye used is Solvent Red 24 which contains chemical markers, not easy to remove and would take a long time to dilute the traces away, initial tests will be by visual means but there are other methods if hmrc suspect red diesel has been used.
Sharkattack +1
When I look back at my late teens and early 20's I'm amazed I've still got all my limbs ( now mid 30's). I have some fantastic "well there was one time" stories. I think it is part of growing up to take risks in some way shape or form....
Hope it works out for you.
Bad parents? I think you're being a bit hard on yourselves.
Your son has tried to save himself some money and got caught out. He hasn't robbed a bank, dealt drugs or mugged a granny.
Hopefully, he'll learn from it, grow up a bit and move on.
At the end of the day your average 22 year old has plenty more chances to get things right in life but I guarantee he'll make a few more screw ups. If they are all at this end of the scale then I reckon you guys haven't done a bad job as parents.
The very fact that you are so concerned by his behaviour means that he has a good role model to emulate.
I'll most likely be flamed for this. And probably best not let your son see it but...
I don't think your son is an 'idiot'. And I definitely don't think you're bad parents.
Your son has seen an opportunity to gain. And he's taken it. That's what you're supposed to do in a capitalist society. If he was a banker he'd be paid a bonus, because as others have said, the risk/reward ratio is weighted in his favour. He most likely knows deep down what is right and wrong and that's why he hasn't burgled someone's house or mugged a pensioner. He's just seen this as a victimless crime. Against the law yes, but then the law is an ass (see The War On Drugs.)
You say he's 'old enough to know better' but is he really? Ok, I didn't have the backing of the good parents that you clearly are, but I was up to far worse, and far stupider things at that age, and anyway, 22 is a very young age to know the ins and out of the blackmarket fuel trade with regard to 'the Irish Question' as others have pointed out. (Let's not even start getting into the rights and wrongs of occupying other countries)
Just playing Devils Advocate for your lad.
^ Sorry at 19 I firmly knew right from wrong. I put myself through Uni and worked throughout.
At 22 I still knew about cause, effect and act, reaction.
Hope its a lesson for him. I pay my taxes at the pumps. I expect others to do so. Dont like it? Dont drive.
At 22 I could only dream of owning a car. Sorry if it puts someones nose out of place but hes old enough to pay his way/make his own mistakes. Sick of the culture of tax dodging of any form as seen as 'not a crime'. It ****ing is.
I was playing Smoky and the Bandit with a Capri 2.8i at 22, it's a wonder I'm still alive!
Good times.. 😀
Was told that red would do no harm to an engine.
In fact was told in parts of NI it was safer to use red as so much of the fuel was laundered to remove the dye with strong chemicals and it was these which damaged the engine.
also heard a funny story about a farmers wife who when having the tank dipped told the customs officer that her husband always put the fuel in the tank in the boot
Lawmanmx the voice of sanity it seems to me.
Remember its the governments job to rip us off not the other way around, they really don't like that.
Tax avoidance, I'm up for that, means less money for them to spunk away in foreign aid and pay rises for themselves.
[quote=RightWing said]Tax avoidance, I'm up for that
Ah - so you approve of Amazon et al?
[quote=DezB said]A £5000 car at 22! How times have changed!
Indeed - I only spent £3000 on a car at 22 (20 odd years ago), times have changed. My own money, cash, no debt.
Sorry late into the story.
Nothing new, when I was a kid I had a mate who ran a Tranny with normal fuel in the tank and a 50 gal drum in the back. Which I guess is why they started with the exhaust probe.
[i]It's mostly funded from council tax. Seeing as I cycle rather than drive most of the time, could you send me a refund please? I take cheques or Paypal. [/i]
I love comments from the un-educated.
[b]Although it is the only tax which is set by local government in Great Britain, the Council Tax ostensibly contributes only a small proportion (25%, on average) of local government revenue. The majority ostensibly comes from central government funding, either as grants, or in the form of business rates which are collected centrally and redistributed to local authorities.[/b]
At 16 I had my first car VW Golf mk2, later on I had oldish Mercedes which I gave as a present to my sister when i was 20. Left country so no longer needed. I worked hard and started part time working selling batteries, watches etc on weekends in the market.
So yeah, nothing wrong of having bling if you deserve it. I am sure OP son is good lad.
Why does everyone get so upset about tax? It's there, pay it. Don't like it? Tough. Why moan?
Lot of high horses about. No one ever broken the law?
Have to agree with a previous post. Over in the Ireland in the border regions and most of the north, a high percentage of diesel is laundered. So the red/ green is a cleaner fuel as it hasn't been touched. There's even talk of them playing around with petrol now and diluting it down with cheaper substances.
Feeling incredibly frustrated and down about this and all the related issues to be honest....
Ahh, don't ignore it but don't worry about it excessively. It's easy to say from here but it seems like he's acted like a cheeky dickhead and been caught with no unfixable consequences and in a way he can lead from it.
By the time I was his age various of my mates had stabbed people, fallen into drug addiction, fallen into drug dealing, written off cars and killed themselves through drink driving. And we were good kids!
robowns - Member
Why does everyone get so upset about tax? It's there, pay it. Don't like it? Tough. Why moan?
POSTED 1 HOUR AGO # REPORT-POST
Its the stupidly High amounts us sensible people have a problem with!
I'll bet the govt love people like you who just pay pay pay and love it.
I was playing Smoky and the Bandit with a Capri 2.8i at 22, it's a wonder I'm still alive!
Good times..
You weren't the bloke who crashed into my dad and changed his life forever (all for a bit of sideways fun) are you? Only he drove a 2.8 Capri and drove like a hero.
Its the stupidly High amounts us sensible people have a problem with!
... on luxury items.
The public transport system is, largely, pretty poor currently. But if more people used it, it would be more useful; chicken and egg. Look at London, people are forced to use public transport, therefore you can pretty much get from anywhere in London to anywhere else in London in a short amount of time at any point in the day or night.
I wanted to get from East Lancashire to Leeds for a meal a couple of months ago. I would've preferred the train, but the last train home is around 9pm, so I had to drive. It's a very silly state of affairs.
Its the stupidly High amounts us sensible people have a problem with!
I love it when folk say sensible people though its not as good as right minded people for suggesting only non sensible or wrong thinking folk disagree with you 🙄
Personally I have no objection too paying tax and pooling our collective resources to achieve social goals like say a decent public transport system cheap enough and often enough to use.
Only selfish folk think only about their own personal tax burden rather than the collective needs and goals of the wider society.
So cougar you have trains in East lancs, I am happy the 19 th Century has reached there has the 20 th yet 😉
Its the stupidly High amounts us sensible people have a problem with!
I'll bet the govt love people like you who just pay pay pay and love it.
Aren't you a student? Teh ironing of someone paying virtually no tax, whilst talking about "being ripped off by the man" is just delightful.
Your ignorance about "how much of your car tax pays for roads", just makes you look like a pillock though sadly.
What is your solution? If you cut every tax by 10%, where does that shortfall come from?
We'll ... Latest update is that we have the car back,...... But £700 (which he doesn't have ) lighter. He was interviewed under caution by two HMRC officials .... As you may expect a good cop / bad cop ...... The questioning and statement process was about 30 minutes and questions obviously designed to trick and get more info. But after the questioning and fine / release charge paid they issued documentation . He has 24 hours to drain and remove the red from the tank.... If any further is found on spot check then he's really in big trouble and they are unlikely to release car .
After the grilling I spoke privately to the officials ..... They were happy it was his first offence and something he was unlikely to repeat. Sometimes they were saying that after questioning they hold car for further investigations if they feel they could get to source or there is a commercial gain. They seized an Audi A8 last week !
He was driving home and within 15 miles was pulled by Police again to investigate his fuel so the car is obviously on database and picked up by the number plate recognition cameras. In a way I was quite happy with that as it confirms to him that he is a marked man and he must be totally clean on anything at all to do with his car.
I thank you for the comments ...... But whilst he isn't a bad lad he is just frustratingly stupid..... He seems to have this streak of whatever that places him above the law...... He has e need up working to pay charges for unpaid parking fees, e bay charges, going overdrawn etc..... He just can't seem to get himself sorted financially .... Hence why he was during red diesel!
No... He's not thieving or doing really bad stuff, but I worry that he drifts down that road to get cash when he is short...... It's hard when he has been surrounded by a work ethic all his life and we work hard for the things we have and plan and work towards what we want over time. Whilst he works hard the point I was trying to make to him this morning was that basically he has now worked a whole month for nothing just to pay this fine.... He worked for half a week to pay an unpaid car parking ticket last month £112.50 ..... All because he couldn't be bothered to put £4 in a machine ! Then thought that Mr Teflon could ignore the letters and tickets.....
So what stresses and worries is that will he actually learn from this latest and biggest.... Or will it actually continue the cycle as he will be short of cash for a few months now..... Short at Christmas etc etc etc.....
I could cheerfully beat him with a stick.
Sell the car to pay the debts - either use a bike or get a cheaper car.
Tough lesson, but sounds like a necessary one
Hells teeth, no im not a student and as far as i know our stupidly high taxed does Not pay for public transport (thats a self funded business iirc)
Lets all agree that all the high taxes are really working to keep the country working exactly as it should do .... But wait a minute????
Do we all believe this country is runing properly and most of all Fairly?
Kids are just people who haven't yet learnt enough lessons, age is pretty irrelevant (Dad to 3 sons, 15, 18 and 19).
Luckily for me my ex is so crap with money that the eldest two have learnt their (money) lessons already. They still cost me money even though the eldest two are working, but it's all for good reasons and I'd rather they asked me than went for credit elsewhere.
our stupidly high taxed does Not pay for public transport (thats a self funded business iirc)
Public transport is subsidised - quite substantially in London.
Well, to be fair if they were parking tickets from a private parking company he doesn't need to pay them, if he appeals properly they will be overturned..
However he's been daft with the red, doubt it's a mistake he'll make again!!
You can screw with most parts of the legal system, customs though, it really isn't worth it!
I used to work for a customs clearance company and asked the boss about the powers of HMC&E. "Son" he replied "they can look up your arse without asking"
Perhaps not technically correct but in some regards they have greater powers than the police.
Hells teeth, no im not a student and as far as i know our stupidly high taxed does Not pay for public transport (thats a self funded business iirc)
may i suggest you read this.
[url= http://www.worcesternews.co.uk/news/10854585.Fresh_plea_over_bus_cuts_in_Worcestershire/ ]http://www.worcesternews.co.uk/news/10854585.Fresh_plea_over_bus_cuts_in_Worcestershire/[/url]
just one case, and there are plenty more, most councils subsidise routes, and this is before we get to free bus passes for OAPs, which aren't actually free but paid for by everyone just not at the point of use.
I suggest you do a bit of reading and not the daily mail, the tax burden in the UK is actually quite low, part of the reason why so many services are crap! We could go down the US route and let the poor die in the streets because they have no health insurance if you want.
crankboy - Member
local shops? local work? local school??? cheap petrol kills the rural economy . There is a 2010 report by the council "Rural Wiltshire an Overview."Basically a prosperous area with lots of urban incommers pricing out locals and changing local comunities, [b]If more people were using the local busses for local needs then more busses would run[/b] .
But people don't use the buses [i]because[/i] there are very few that go to where people need to get, from places they live!
Do you actually [i]know[/i] anything about the county of Wiltshire? It very big, with lots of small villages spread over a large area, along small, narrow roads, where buses don't go. A friend of mine has a hotel/restaurant/tea-room business not far from Castle Combe, on the Fosse Way. In order to catch a bus, there is a walk of a mile along a narrow road, with no verges, which drops into a steep valley with bends and back up again, to get to a main A-road, to catch a bus to Chippenham, in order to then catch a bus to get to Bath, Bristol, or anywhere else. In the other direction, which goes to the A420 Bristol Road, it's a two mile walk, with steep, very narrow sections and no verges. A close friend used to live in Colerne, which has a large military base. There is one bus at 7.15am, and one in the afternoon, out of the village, to Bath. The communities are spread out, people who need to work can't use public transport because there can [i]never[/i] be enough buses to take people to a huge variety of destinations. Quite a few people at work start at 6am, they come from Corsham, Bristol, Swindon, Cirencester...
Do you seriously think that there would be buses running at 4am, to get one or two people to jobs in Chippenham?
And retired people might well live spread out around a particular village, and have to walk quite some distance in foul weather, just to get to a bus-stop, and a bus that may well take two hours to do a fifteen minute car drive.
A work collegue lives in Biddestone, where my local pub is. He starts at 6am, finishes at 1.30pm, and there are no buses that go into the village. He'd have to walk the five miles into Chippenham, because there are no bus stops on the A420, which is three quarters of a mile from his cottage.
And no, as a very large bloke close to retiring age, a bike is not an option.
Some people have a hopelessly unrealistic notion of how people manage in spread-out rural communities.
And the small village schools have all closed, because there weren't enough children going to them to keep them going.
And the post offices all closed, because all the services that people used were taken away, or put on-line; really useful in areas that barely have an Internet connection to speak of, let-alone mobile coverage.
I'll happily dump you in Nettleton, without a bike or car, and see how you manage to get around on a day-to-day basis.
crankboy - Member
Basically a prosperous area with lots of urban incommers pricing out locals and changing local comunities, If more people were using the local busses for local needs then more busses would run .
Public transport! 😆 Yes, they do transport people from A to B but by no means should they replace our freedom to drive.
If you can afford a car then get a car.
Public transport is just another mode of transport and not there to dictate how people travel/live. 🙄
Beeching has a lot to answer for.
I think about now would be the suitable moment to re-deploy this
as far as i know our stupidly high taxed does Not pay for public transport (thats a self funded business iirc)
You recall incorrectly. Have you not put down that Daily Mail you were whittering on about yet?
Lets all agree that all the high taxes are really working to keep the country working exactly as it should do .... But wait a minute????
Do we all believe this country is runing properly and most of all Fairly?
No, the poorest and most vulnerable in our society get screwed, whilst the rich collect bonuses, evade tax, and then have the temerity to moan about paying too much tax.
You know those who complain the most about high taxes probably pay the least.
Considering there are scores of cars that will get over 60mpg fuel is still fairly cheap.
Yes Mike that makes loads of sense, and £1.40+ Cheap? I remember paying Half of that for a Gallon mate!
And on that note, im outta here!
£1.40+ Cheap?
Given that it's a non-renewable resource, that has far better uses than pushing cars around, and causes untold damage to the planet, it seems pretty damn cheap, yes.
I remember paying Half of that for a Gallon mate!
In which case you should be clever enough to be aware of:
1) Inflation
2) Supply and demand
3) If you don't pay tax through a levy on something that pollutes, you'll pay it as extra VAT, or income tax, or something.
And on that note, im outta here!
Don;t let the door hit you on the arse, enjoy your flounce, etc.
Given how single occupancy cars , traffic jams and levels of journeys of less than 5 miles being undertaken by car yep ill agree fuels too expensive.
The price of fuel still doesnt make people think twice about using the car to nip to the shop. There are guys in our office who drive from one end of dyce to the other- just because its cold outside.....
Count Zero makes some very good points and the local bus services are due to be cut. Got to love this government.
Zokes you are feisty this morning, the Ashes are gone, you just have to accept it 😆
Having lived in rural areas for most of my life I'm well aware of the awful state of rural transport but I'm also aware of what cheap fuel means, here in Oz it's relatively half the price as it is in the UK and there is still an obsession with 25mpg trucks that are nothing more than penis extensions. It's well proven that taxation can be a motivation for change, business doesn't change because it's right they do it to save money etc.
Yes Mike that makes loads of sense, and £1.40+ Cheap? I remember paying Half of that for a Gallon mate!
And on that note, im outta here!
Well done point missed, you are obviously old enough to remember a time before we understood that oil was limited and that the pollution caused was not an acceptable outcome.
Spot on, Mike
Aaaahhh the peak oil myth.... And if this world was really bothered about polution it wouldn't have surpressed air and water powered vehicles