My idiot 22 year old son ..... The one who was more mature at 14 ...... Has just come in with the great news that he has had his car taken by the Police after being stopped and they checked the fuel which it turns out was red diesel he was buying from a farm for a tenner a barrell ,..... Despite many warning from us that he shouldn't
Yes .... It's incredibly stupid but he seems to be of the opinion that he gets a £500 fine then he gets his car back when he's paid it...... But I keep finding different instances and opinions as whether the vehicles are seized or confiscated I.e not returned regardless?
Also is this a criminal offence for which he will go to court and get a record or is it a traffic offence?
Concerned parent ..... Wishing his offspring would grow up......
Any one have experience or knowledge ?
Customs & Excise matter I think, after the police's initial action obviously.
In theory you are trying to screw HM customs and excise out of their money,
[url= http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageVAT_ShowContent&id=HMCE_CL_000164&propertyType=document#P80_7017 ]http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageVAT_ShowContent&id=HMCE_CL_000164&propertyType=document#P80_7017[/url]
read and weep...
You can screw with most parts of the legal system, customs though, it really isn't worth it!
They MAY be nice.... but don't count on it.
bit out of date on this subject but red was always dealt with by customs and excise being an excise duty. if an offence was detected one could be offered a compound penalty, where one admitted ones guilt and paid a financial penalty, this was not a criminal conviction nor recorded on PNC, there may also be a restoration fee for the return of the seized vehicle. but been a few years since I was an excise officer. quick edit if the compound penalty was declined the matter then went to court and criminal proceedings, looks like the compound penalty still exists but no we has a fancy hmrc name.
Yes, Customs & Excise deal with red diesel.
The Police usually set up a road check point in conjunction with Customs & Excise.
The Police check for drink drive, construction and use offences, no insurance and no licence etc; whilst Customs dip the tank .
It's very common this time of year as the usual 'drink drive' campaigns start on the run up to Christmas.
I hope the vehicle is confiscated and crushed- he's probably saved at least his £500 in fuel duty.
I hope not.... The cars worth £5000 which he has borrowed from me and only paid half back so far !
He still owes it you wether he's got the car or not. Expensive lesson. Just hope he learns it.
I thought they went after you for the duty? Milage of car @ about 20mpg * tax missed?
Anyway I'd rather pass off batman, the alien, Bond and Bourne before I pissed off those guys
if you can't do the time....etc...
feel sorry for you OP
At least you know what to get him for christmas...
[img] 
[/img]
... on a more serious note, this guy seemed to have been fined 500 quid per van http://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/163-2-000-penalty-illegal-red-diesel-use/story-11611627-detail/story.html
Edited, sorry.. That was the last thing you need right now
Kids are shit sometimes, you have my sympathy..
mad or supportive?
A mate got caught by customs and excise a few years ago. They called at his house at 0800hrs. £250 handling and £250 using. I can't remember if they took card payment or escorted him to the cash point. Either way, they never impounded his car. I wouldn't be surprised if there's an additional charge if they've recovered the car.
You should make him pay you back. Lessons to be learned an all that..
Customs have always scared me as have VOSA.
Years ago my mates dad was using red in an old escort diesel. Now these things sounded like tractors at the best of times.
He went on holiday to Spain and, as I'd been doing some work on the car for him, he allowed me to use it as it was better on fuel than my car.
I knew he was running on red but stupidly started pottering round in it. Went to blackpool and they were pulling all the taxis and vans in on the prom and customs were there. I panicked and turned the engine off and rolled past them so they couldn't hear it was a diesel 😯 😳
Got away with it but took it as a warning and parked the thing up and never touched it again.
How do you get rid of the stain on the tank and it's not that cheap they must have been small barrels.
£10 a barrel sounds very good, do you have a contact number? 😕
If he is prepared to use red diesel, then what other dodgy stuff is he doing?
Also you say he is using your car? He wouldn't be any more if it were me.
Police were probably topped off by someone hes bragged to. Or he has been very unlucky.
Never been dipped in 10 years of diesels.
trail_rat - Member
Police were probably topped off by someone hes bragged to. Or he has been very unlucky.Never been dipped in 10 years of diesels.
Used to see them a lot in the country/rural areas. Cumbria used to a lot around appleby horse fair but all they ended up doing was impounding cars that none of the horse trading tarmac layers owned or came back for.
googles customs & excise number 😉
Police were probably topped off by someone hes bragged to. Or he has been very unlucky.Never been dipped in 10 years of diesels.
normally they do 28 days a month on Commercial vehicles and 2-3 on cars.
The bigger multipoint checks are reputed to have a benefits officer and a magistrate in their portacabin so once VOSA and HMRC are done taking your car, cigarettes and drugs you can be charged and have your dole stopped.
Part of me kind of hopes this is true.
benefits officer and a magistrate in their portacabin so once VOSA and HMRC are done taking your car, cigarettes and drugs you can be charged and have your dole stopped.
"Good idea's" like this are never true..
I knew a guy who lived pretty rural and was using red diesel in his car for years. When he eventually did get caught the subsequent fine was far less than the difference he'd saved by using it! I'm not sure what other punishments he got (if any).
It's a good question though, say if you bought a car off someone who had being using red diesel would you then become liable if customs noticed the stained tank??
Produce receipts/bank statement to prove its not you.
Woman I know had her Volvo siezed, had to pay 2.5k back to C+E who then gave her the car back. She admitted to been doing it for 3 years they did some calculations and that was the figure they came up with.
How would they check for a stained tank? Much easier to look at filters and plastics.
My Ex's brother did the same,similar age to your son.
His father got a good lawyer and got him off with a slap on the wrist and a small fine,as it was his first offence.
Seems ridiculous that the fine is similar too or less than the money saved but not at all surprising.
girl at last place I worked got done for this and as far as I remember it's tax evasion in hmrcs view and she got hit with a fine of several grand, can't remember the exact circumstances but they basically backdated the loss to the revenue and hit her with that. sorry I don't work with her anymore so I can't ask her what happened exactly.
part of growing up.
my young self many moons ago. off to stonehenge. bus crash, multiple violations and then the red diesel leaked out. multiple liftings and those that got away and got to where we were going walked straight into some proper police shenanigans.
doubtless all fat, greying and riding mtbs these days. all bar one that is and red diesel wouldn't even register on his loony travails.
I have access to "red" all the time but never once been tempted to put it in my car.
I'd only ever consider it if I was on my arse and then it'd have to be a 500 pound banger as it gets all manner of shit in it. What he was thinking of bunging it in a 5k car is beyond me!
I'm surprised the vehicle was seized by the police for an excise offence.
Are you sure he's told you the whole story?
A £5000 car at 22! How times have changed! A £5000 debt at 22... good start that, no wonder he's trying to scrimp on fuel costs.
(I'm not the judgmental type, honest!)
HMRC should publicise this more. I wasn't aware of how severe the punishment is.
I hope the vehicle is confiscated and crushed
Whyever would you hope that a young person has their car taken away?
What a horrible attitude.
As far as I'm aware, the red coloring is only there for basic identification.
There is a chemical trace in 'Red' Diesel, which is what they actually test for.
The red staining thing is a bit of an urban myth, a few weeks running around with 'white' diesel in your tank and you'll have washed any traces of red away.
Not sure how long the chemical trace hangs about though?
I also had access to red diesel while I was running about in old Landrovers, but never did it.
I did run on a 50-50 mix of Vege oil and diesel for most of the year though..
[i]I hope the vehicle is confiscated and crushed- he's probably saved at least his £500 in fuel duty.[/i]
mmm best not ride that high horse over the speed limit beefheart, you might have to go on [url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/speed-awareness-courses ]a speed awareness course[/url]
lol pwned
The irony being that they'll chase an individual for a few £100 avoided in tax yet Google, Amazon, Apple etc can legally avoid paying billions in tax, but there's no intention to close any loop holes which allow this.
Not that I condone any tax avoidance in any way.
It is likely that your Son will have to pay a civil penalty (fine) and maybe a restoration fee. A storage fee (for the pound where the car is stored) may also be payable.
The Police have power to stop and seize vehicles running on Red diesel but ultimatly this is a HMRC (formerly Customs & Excise) offence as normal petrol forecourt fuel obviously has duty on it; Red does not so it is technically fruadulent evaison of excise duty. The police may well have referred the case to the local Road Fuel Testing Unit (HMRC) and they will deal with it on a civil case. HMRC have the power to seize vehicles running on red. If the civil penalty is not paid then ultimately the car could be crushed and your Son persued for costs. I'd personally try to get it dealt with ASAP; the longer it is in the pound, the more it will cost.
I think one is evasion so against the law and the other is avoidance which is not. Hence the difference.
