[Closed] Car Seized by Police for use of red diesel ..... ### idiot content ####

Customs & Excise matter I think, after the police's initial action obviously.

In theory you are trying to screw HM customs and excise out of their money,

[url= http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageVAT_ShowContent&id=HMCE_CL_000164&propertyType=document#P80_7017 ]http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageVAT_ShowContent&id=HMCE_CL_000164&propertyType=document#P80_7017[/url]

read and weep...

You can screw with most parts of the legal system, customs though, it really isn't worth it!

They MAY be nice.... but don't count on it.

bit out of date on this subject but red was always dealt with by customs and excise being an excise duty. if an offence was detected one could be offered a compound penalty, where one admitted ones guilt and paid a financial penalty, this was not a criminal conviction nor recorded on PNC, there may also be a restoration fee for the return of the seized vehicle. but been a few years since I was an excise officer. quick edit if the compound penalty was declined the matter then went to court and criminal proceedings, looks like the compound penalty still exists but no we has a fancy hmrc name.

http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageVAT_ShowContent&id=HMCE_CL_000164&propertyType=document

Go to 5.1

Yes, Customs & Excise deal with red diesel.

The Police usually set up a road check point in conjunction with Customs & Excise.

The Police check for drink drive, construction and use offences, no insurance and no licence etc; whilst Customs dip the tank .

It's very common this time of year as the usual 'drink drive' campaigns start on the run up to Christmas.

I hope the vehicle is confiscated and crushed- he's probably saved at least his £500 in fuel duty.

I hope not.... The cars worth £5000 which he has borrowed from me and only paid half back so far !

He still owes it you wether he's got the car or not. Expensive lesson. Just hope he learns it.

I thought they went after you for the duty? Milage of car @ about 20mpg * tax missed?

Anyway I'd rather pass off batman, the alien, Bond and Bourne before I pissed off those guys

if you can't do the time....etc...

feel sorry for you OP

At least you know what to get him for christmas...

[img] [/img]

... on a more serious note, this guy seemed to have been fined 500 quid per van http://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/163-2-000-penalty-illegal-red-diesel-use/story-11611627-detail/story.html

Edited, sorry.. That was the last thing you need right now
Kids are shit sometimes, you have my sympathy..

mad or supportive?

A mate got caught by customs and excise a few years ago. They called at his house at 0800hrs. £250 handling and £250 using. I can't remember if they took card payment or escorted him to the cash point. Either way, they never impounded his car. I wouldn't be surprised if there's an additional charge if they've recovered the car.

You should make him pay you back. Lessons to be learned an all that..

Customs have always scared me as have VOSA.

Years ago my mates dad was using red in an old escort diesel. Now these things sounded like tractors at the best of times.

He went on holiday to Spain and, as I'd been doing some work on the car for him, he allowed me to use it as it was better on fuel than my car.

I knew he was running on red but stupidly started pottering round in it. Went to blackpool and they were pulling all the taxis and vans in on the prom and customs were there. I panicked and turned the engine off and rolled past them so they couldn't hear it was a diesel 😯 😳

Got away with it but took it as a warning and parked the thing up and never touched it again.

How do you get rid of the stain on the tank and it's not that cheap they must have been small barrels.

£10 a barrel sounds very good, do you have a contact number? 😕

If he is prepared to use red diesel, then what other dodgy stuff is he doing?

Also you say he is using your car? He wouldn't be any more if it were me.

Police were probably topped off by someone hes bragged to. Or he has been very unlucky.

Never been dipped in 10 years of diesels.

trail_rat - Member
Police were probably topped off by someone hes bragged to. Or he has been very unlucky.

Never been dipped in 10 years of diesels.

Used to see them a lot in the country/rural areas. Cumbria used to a lot around appleby horse fair but all they ended up doing was impounding cars that none of the horse trading tarmac layers owned or came back for.

googles customs & excise number 😉

Police were probably topped off by someone hes bragged to. Or he has been very unlucky.

Never been dipped in 10 years of diesels.

normally they do 28 days a month on Commercial vehicles and 2-3 on cars.

The bigger multipoint checks are reputed to have a benefits officer and a magistrate in their portacabin so once VOSA and HMRC are done taking your car, cigarettes and drugs you can be charged and have your dole stopped.

Part of me kind of hopes this is true.

benefits officer and a magistrate in their portacabin so once VOSA and HMRC are done taking your car, cigarettes and drugs you can be charged and have your dole stopped.

"Good idea's" like this are never true..

I knew a guy who lived pretty rural and was using red diesel in his car for years. When he eventually did get caught the subsequent fine was far less than the difference he'd saved by using it! I'm not sure what other punishments he got (if any).

It's a good question though, say if you bought a car off someone who had being using red diesel would you then become liable if customs noticed the stained tank??

Produce receipts/bank statement to prove its not you.

Woman I know had her Volvo siezed, had to pay 2.5k back to C+E who then gave her the car back. She admitted to been doing it for 3 years they did some calculations and that was the figure they came up with.

How would they check for a stained tank? Much easier to look at filters and plastics.

My Ex's brother did the same,similar age to your son.
His father got a good lawyer and got him off with a slap on the wrist and a small fine,as it was his first offence.

Seems ridiculous that the fine is similar too or less than the money saved but not at all surprising.

girl at last place I worked got done for this and as far as I remember it's tax evasion in hmrcs view and she got hit with a fine of several grand, can't remember the exact circumstances but they basically backdated the loss to the revenue and hit her with that. sorry I don't work with her anymore so I can't ask her what happened exactly.

part of growing up.

my young self many moons ago. off to stonehenge. bus crash, multiple violations and then the red diesel leaked out. multiple liftings and those that got away and got to where we were going walked straight into some proper police shenanigans.

doubtless all fat, greying and riding mtbs these days. all bar one that is and red diesel wouldn't even register on his loony travails.

I have access to "red" all the time but never once been tempted to put it in my car.
I'd only ever consider it if I was on my arse and then it'd have to be a 500 pound banger as it gets all manner of shit in it. What he was thinking of bunging it in a 5k car is beyond me!

I'm surprised the vehicle was seized by the police for an excise offence.

Are you sure he's told you the whole story?

A £5000 car at 22! How times have changed! A £5000 debt at 22... good start that, no wonder he's trying to scrimp on fuel costs.
(I'm not the judgmental type, honest!)

HMRC should publicise this more. I wasn't aware of how severe the punishment is.

I hope the vehicle is confiscated and crushed

As far as I'm aware, the red coloring is only there for basic identification.
There is a chemical trace in 'Red' Diesel, which is what they actually test for.
The red staining thing is a bit of an urban myth, a few weeks running around with 'white' diesel in your tank and you'll have washed any traces of red away.
Not sure how long the chemical trace hangs about though?

I also had access to red diesel while I was running about in old Landrovers, but never did it.
I did run on a 50-50 mix of Vege oil and diesel for most of the year though..

[i]I hope the vehicle is confiscated and crushed- he's probably saved at least his £500 in fuel duty.[/i]

mmm best not ride that high horse over the speed limit beefheart, you might have to go on [url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/speed-awareness-courses ]a speed awareness course[/url]

lol pwned

The irony being that they'll chase an individual for a few £100 avoided in tax yet Google, Amazon, Apple etc can legally avoid paying billions in tax, but there's no intention to close any loop holes which allow this.

Not that I condone any tax avoidance in any way.

It is likely that your Son will have to pay a civil penalty (fine) and maybe a restoration fee. A storage fee (for the pound where the car is stored) may also be payable.

The Police have power to stop and seize vehicles running on Red diesel but ultimatly this is a HMRC (formerly Customs & Excise) offence as normal petrol forecourt fuel obviously has duty on it; Red does not so it is technically fruadulent evaison of excise duty. The police may well have referred the case to the local Road Fuel Testing Unit (HMRC) and they will deal with it on a civil case. HMRC have the power to seize vehicles running on red. If the civil penalty is not paid then ultimately the car could be crushed and your Son persued for costs. I'd personally try to get it dealt with ASAP; the longer it is in the pound, the more it will cost.

I think one is evasion so against the law and the other is avoidance which is not. Hence the difference.

"The red staining thing is a bit of an urban myth, a few weeks running around with 'white' diesel in your tank and you'll have washed any traces of red away."

having changed more than one fuel filter that has been run on red and subsequently with white - that is not true.

The irony being that they'll chase an individual for a few £100 avoided in tax yet Google, Amazon, Apple etc can legally avoid paying billions in tax, but there's no intention to close any loop holes which allow this.

Not that I condone any tax avoidance in any way.

Lets also not forget anyone who is self-employed and has the capacity to be paid in cash as well; indie shops, taxi drivers, plumbers etc etc etc. Everytime I've been told 'plus VAT' and asked for 'cash preferred' it rankles me.

The irony of running red in a £5k car has made me chuckle. 😉

Sorry to read that OP - I hope he gets a slap to teach him a lesson, but one that's bearable and doesn't see you in the poop or out of pocket.

The irony being that they'll chase an individual for a few £100 avoided in tax yet Google, Amazon, Apple etc can legally avoid paying billions in tax, but there's no intention to close any loop holes which allow this.

Now there's that complicated argument again...

I think one is evasion so against the law and the other is avoidance which is not. Hence the difference.

I think the real difference is that one is committed by relatively poor people and the other by multi-billionaires who are our politician's best friends.....

"The red staining thing is a bit of an urban myth, a few weeks running around with 'white' diesel in your tank and you'll have washed any traces of red away."

having changed more than one fuel filter that has been run on red and subsequently with white - that is not true.

I had assumed that anybody trying to rid a vehicle of any traces of Red diesel would have done at least 1 filter swap anyway..

The red is a solvent dye there for marking purposes. A solvent yellow dye is added to home heating oil - it turns red in the presence of strong acids, another roadside test HMRC will carry out.

He's 22 so is old enough to know right from wrong.
It's a harsh reality that if he loses the car it will be his own fault. We all pay duty. Why the hell shouldn't he.
He will then probably lose his job as he has no way of getting to work.
This will mean he becomes a leech to the benefits system which he will never come off.
He'll get into hard drugs just to numb the passing of each day.
And you will never see the money he owes you just because of some red diesel.
I hope you have reported the money grabbing farmer to customs too.

A £5000 car at 22!

Can't see me ever getting a loan for a car (or bike for that matter).

I think the real difference is that one is committed by relatively poor people and the other by multi-billionaires who are our politician's best friends.....

Precisely. What is classed as avoidance or evasion is a political construction, not cast in tablets of stone on Mount Sinai.

amen ransos

[i]I hope you have reported the money grabbing farmer to customs too. [/i]

this although at £10/barrel it may well have been stolen?

All this talk about billionaires still doesn't help the OP, seeing a five grand car crushed and losing two and a half grand cash.
Poor Bugger.

Im not surprised if anybody uses red diesel these days what with the 80+ pence per ltr in "duty" (hate that word) what do we really expect? Its Extortion plain and simple.
We have become a nation of people who are being bullied and having our lunch money taken from us daily and are compliant in its action! I wouldn't mind as much of the country was in a better state from all this Theft from its inhabitants (but its most certainly Not!)
And confiscation pf yer lads car is just their nice way of saying we are stealing this car because yer not doing as yer told (by paying Us ours)

*stands back and awaits the judges jury and Executioners*

Look at the rest of Europe. It's the same or maybe a few cents less most in the other counties.
It's not just the UK.

Lawmanmx - duty on vehicle fuel is optional though?

If you don't want to pay it don't drive your car?

We have become a nation of people who are being bullied and having our lunch money taken from us daily and are compliant in its action!

Its Extortion plain and simple.

No it's tax. If you can't tell the difference you're an idiot.

*stands back and awaits the judges jury and Executioners*

Allow me..

We all pay duty. Why the hell shouldn't he

😀 It's lovely in Vienna today. Just going for a walk in the woods

I pay duty for the fuel in my Audi A1 when in the uk

Some people on here cant see the woods for the trees, Tax is something they take from you wether you like it or not! Thats Theft by any other name.
And i dont pay any of their fraudulent auto thefts any more as i sold the car and use my bike too 🙂
Its all a con.
There are Inherent rights and wrongs in this life and "tax" (theft) is one of them! We have been wronged for so long now we cant see the difference between them.

I totally agree. Lets all stop paying tax on everything.
That'll teach em.

I've never seen anyone who's 'anti-tax' suggest another, reasonable way to fund any public service even as basic as road infrastructure and street lighting that doesn't involve some sort of collective input into a pot of money which is then used for the public good.

So, Lawmanmx - these roads that you now cycle down - how should they be funded?

Some people on here cant see the woods for the trees,

You, for one.

How do you think the country runs? Fairy dust?

From what i can see the infrastructure has been there a very long time And paid for many times over, just do a little reserch on how much of you car tax is spent on the roads (infrastructure) and ask yourself where the rest is going?
Im not for zero taxation at all, i just thing this country and its owners take the piss out of its inhabitants, Blatantly too.
80+ pence per ltr ... Really??? C'mon Really?

"You, for one.
How do you think the country runs? Fairy dust?"

Obviously yes.
I would like for people to start thinking for themselves instead of what the "Daily mail" tells them to think.

All this talk about billionaires still doesn't help the OP, seeing a five grand car crushed and losing two and a half grand cash.
Poor Bugger.

You mean stupid bugger. If you can't do the time etc.....

how much of you car tax is spent on the roads (infrastructure) and ask yourself where the rest is going?

Into general taxation perhaps?

I meant the op (father)

From what i can see the infrastructure has been there a very long time And paid for many times over, just do a little reserch on how much of you car tax is spent on the roads (infrastructure) and ask yourself where the rest is going?

http://www.kimharding.net/blog/?p=470

"From what i can see the infrastructure has been there a very long time "

You think, perhaps, the Romans did a good enough job of building the A1 it doesn't need maintenance?

[i]Im not for zero taxation at all[/i]

so how much taxation are you for?

Lets face it, we have to pay tax.
Who else will pay for the paysrises I see the MPs are getting.
They do such an amazing job and deserve every penny.

From what i can see the infrastructure has been there a very long time And paid for many times over, just do a little reserch on how much of you car tax is spent on the roads (infrastructure) and ask yourself where the rest is going?

It's mostly funded from council tax. Seeing as I cycle rather than drive most of the time, could you send me a refund please? I take cheques or Paypal.

I would like for people to start thinking for themselves instead of what the "Daily mail" tells them to think.

IRONY ALERT!