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Its actually cheaper in relation to average incomes than it used to be
Damn.
In which case, our lives have been filled with so much other expense that we can no longer afford for our kids to drive.
When my parents were my age they never paid a Mobile Phone contract (or 2), Broadband/Digital TV contract, gas/electricity/petrol was (relatively) cheap, owning 2 cars was the exception ...
A lot comes down to priorities I suppose.
Of course since the world all broke in 2008, nobody can afford anything anymore.
Its actually cheaper in relation to average incomes than it used to be
Average incomes are a somewhat twisted figure anyway.
Its actually cheaper in relation to average incomes than it used to be
Not for a 18 yr old
My first car was £1250 to insure through Quinn Direct, They were by far the cheapest at the time, maybe worth a go. Had both parents on the policy as named drivers. For me that expense is worth the convenience. I live in a village as well and having a car is so much better than biking everywhere all the time.
This may seem really silly, but if you go for a low excess quotes can actually decrease.
The reason why insurers charge more for 3rd party, high excess, low mileage is because the people who do this are those who generally don't give a sh** about their own car and are more likely to stack it into someone else (and being 3rd party covered they won't pay a penny for it. If you give the impression to insurers that that is not you (lower excess, fully comp, pass plus, etc.) then this can have a huge effect.
I initially set my excess at about £500, but I found that when I set it to £100 the quotes plummeted.
And go for older cars, Insurers don't like people who give 18YO 2.5k worth of car because it implies they are spoilt and won't care (I'm not implying that's you and your son, OP, that's just what they'll think). My cars have all been around the £800 mark. New enough not to be deathtraps (so full service history, etc. Mid 1990s), but not expensive enough to give insurers a headache WHEN your son stacks it (It doesn't matter how good a driver you think he is, young drivers WILL crash their car at some stage, we've all been there).
Oh and I got my best quote from Elephant. 1.4 Corsa, just over 1K with a rather expensive crash under my belt. Don't expect to get that though, only a handful of insurers are interested in insuring 18YOs. 1.5K would not be unreasonable at his age.
I can't believe the amount that some of our students pay for insurance.
Actually, hearing about how they drive, I can. We lose roughly one student every 2 years in RTAs...
demJeremy - MemberIts actually cheaper in relation to average incomes than it used to be
I don't believe that's true in the context of this discussion - quite rightly IMO, younger drivers pay a huge amount more relatively than they used to. 20ish years ago when I learnt to drive, my annual insurance premium was a lot less than the value of my car as it was for all my mates. Nowadays, it's generally more than the value of the car, reflecting the liability to other people/property.
clubber - other things are so much cheaper tho - petrol, the cars themselves and so on.
True enough (though they're not lots cheaper IIRC) but insurance at three times the value of the cars will comfortably outweigh that for most by my reckoning.
+1 for a motorbike,
CBT - £100
Jacket+helmet+gloves £100
Rain suit - £30
Cheep chinese 125 - £900, new, with warenty, practicaly free secondhand as they have a preception of beign rubbish.
£250 - TPFT insurance (you'd struggle to do more than the excess in damage to your own bike with no plastics).
And it carries on, despite just passing my bike test at 25 I can still buy/insure/run insure 150mph+ sports bikes for less than my boring underpowered focus with a licence helf for 7 years!
No way in hell I'd be giving my son a motorbike at 17. I saw what happened to a good proportion of my mates who had them at that age...
young drivers WILL crash their car at some stage, we've all been there
As a 'young driver', I never did
& my sister never did
& my other sister never did
None of us have ever crashed any cars since not being a 'young driver'
Yet, as a 'young driver' we were all penalised when buying insurance because everyone assumes you're going to spend every waking hour until you're 25 crashing.
Risk should be based on an individuals performance, not just tarring everyone with the same brush.
In my opinion, it should be 'innocent until proved guilty': insurance for young drivers should be the same as for over 25's UNTIL their insurance is claimed against, at which point they've demonstrated they're a higher risk & therefore should pay massive insurance prices.
But there's probably some reason(s) why that wouldn't work.
In my opinion, it should be 'innocent until proved guilty': insurance for young drivers should be the same as for over 25's UNTIL their insurance is claimed against, at which point they've demonstrated they're a higher risk & therefore should pay massive insurance prices.
LOL - get in the real world 🙂
Even if you didn't crash, you stood a higher chance of crashing. Insurance companies can't assess everyone so they base their premiums on statistical risk. Not totally fair, of course but you don't have to buy from them. Economically, what you suggest isn't viable.
Following on though I agree that of course not all young drivers do crash though.
Risk should be based on an individuals performance, not just tarring everyone with the same brush.In my opinion, it should be 'innocent until proved guilty': insurance for young drivers should be the same as for over 25's UNTIL their insurance is claimed against, at which point they've demonstrated they're a higher risk & therefore should pay massive insurance prices.
But there's probably some reason(s) why that wouldn't work.
The problem is that the statistics suggest that the 'innocent' 17 year olds are still the most likely to crash.
It'd be rather bad odds-management if you gave them cheap insurance in the first place when they are a high risk.
In my opinion, it should be 'innocent until proved guilty': insurance for young drivers should be the same as for over 25's UNTIL their insurance is claimed against, at which point they've demonstrated they're a higher risk & therefore should pay massive insurance prices.
Because insurance is much simpler than you think.
( Number of claims in a group per year * average value of claims from that group in that year ) / number of people in that group = premium.
Young people crash more, thus the number is bigger.
If they paid £500/year for insurance then where's the money going to come from to pay they claims?
are you going to be paying this every year? If not do you really want to saddle your son with this?
SiL was bought a car and insurance (!) when she passed last year, this year parents can't afford to pay her £2K insurance. SiL in college not much money but is now used to driving everywhere. Trying to scrape insurance money together will be fun for her.
My point being plenty of people manage without ever having a car no problems but how many here who already drive would give up?
How does it work in other countries where the car is insured not the driver? Is insurance generally more expensive for everyone, but would work out cheaper for youngsters?
In the area I grew up in if you didn't drive you wouldn't be able to work. I wonder how young people living there now manage.
Insurance companies are like bookies, except less respectable.
When you buy insurance they are giving you what they consider the odds that you will/won't crash. You can place your bet elsewhere.
What you can't do is not bet at all, if you want to own a car.
(and insurance tends to be less extortionate in rural areas where crime is lower, yet there is less public transport, its more expensive in urban areas, so that balances)
Some of these kids need to get more familiar with public transport from the sound of it.
As a 'young driver', I never did
+1
Me neither, in fact I found that my cycling made me better than many of my friends, more aware and seemingly better reactions.
It has definitely got more expensive recently, I passed (aged 17) in 2003, and paid £1200 on a 1.1l 1993 Fiesta, most friends were about the same on the usual sort of cars. Now it really is double that, plus some on average.
How does it work in other countries where the car is insured not the driver?
Not sure but in the US most of the states have fairly low requirements and don't factor age in IIRC
They legally only need 3rd party medical cover totalling something like $50K and a smaller amount of 3rd party property damage cover
Places like New York have very high premiums though and other states like California are relatively low
No way in hell I'd be giving my son a motorbike at 17. I saw what happened to a good proportion of my mates who had them at that age...
Then should you trust him with a car ?
I used to think the same as clubber but thats a very good point.Then should you trust him with a car ?
I'd suggest a scooter if the boy needs to get around that badly. That will be the best bet as he could get everything he needs for the cost of a years car premium. If he is trustworthy and gets good professional training he should be OK and relatively safe. It's all down to how level headed he is I suppose.
Part of his problem with naming parents on the policy is that his mum had a rather high value claim a couple of years ago. I on the other hand, have a clean record 🙂 . I think part of his problem also is that he is a student, and if there is a group of people who you would target as high risk, it is them. They are clearly given everything they own and therefore have no concept of value or responsibility - I guess this is true. He leaves college in June next year, so his car ownership may have to wait until he gets a proper job.
In the meantime I will be phoning round a few insurers rather than using online comparisions - seems the only way to get them to help me get some decent quotes.
Motorbike idea is being considered, but, as every caring parent does, I struggle with the idea that he'll be more likely to hurt himself (or someone else hurt him) on one of those, but I do believe that motorbike riders make better drivers so it is that quandary we're both struggling with as parents. Daughter on the other hand is looking at what she can sell to get a motorbike.
Every single one of my friends with scooters crashed it at some point, they're shockingly unstable IME, and even for the pathetic speeds they achieve are woefully underbraked.
None of them were seriously injured, but they're not really a safe alternative to a motorbike IMO!
njee20 - MemberEvery single one of my friends with scooters crashed it at some point, they're shockingly unstable IME, and even for the pathetic speeds they achieve are woefully underbraked.
Modern scooters are not underbraked - my 80cc 60 mph one had a set of brembo discs the size of those on full size bikes.
I suspect your friends were underskilled.
Motorcycles / scooters are not a particularly cheap option as decent training and protective kit does not come cheap
large418
Why not just let him use one of your cars when he is home from Uni as a named driver ?
He will get taken for a ride if he has the car at Uni, he will be the one running everyone around wasting his(your) money. Most of the students will not have cars. So their social life will revolve around not having one so he won't be left out. Also think of it from a safety point of view the most likely demographic to have an accident are young males with more than 2 people in the car. He will be in this demographic as a student with a car !!!
If he is anything like me or my mates, he will come home a fair bit at weekends initially, then you won't see him until the holidays (if your lucky) as he will have his own life as a grown up living away from home.
When he graduates he will be 21 more sensible and insurance will be lower. He will also have kept his driving hand in by using your cars when home.
The only answer is to run a banger, learn to fix it himself, and insure it 3rd party only. It was exactly the same when I was learning in '98, I paid more in insurance per year than I did for the car for the first 2 years. I had a classic 1.1l Pug 205 which cost next to naff all to run and fix. Sure it was a bit beaten up and some panels were different shades of blue, but it was a car and freedom and I loved it just the same.
Motorcycles / scooters are not a particularly cheap option as decent training and protective kit does not come cheap
But you have those skills for life though so not a waste of money like £2K on car insurance !!!
Only problem with a motorbike for all weather transport is in the winter you arrive everywhere smelling like a wet dog 🙂
The only answer is to run a banger, learn to fix it himself, and insure it 3rd party only. It was exactly the same when I was learning in '98, I paid more in insurance per year than I did for the car for the first 2 years. I had a classic 1.1l Pug 205 which cost next to naff all to run and fix. Sure it was a bit beaten up and some panels were different shades of blue, but it was a car and freedom and I loved it just the same.
I remember my silver escort with the red bonnet, I loved that car 🙂
I can remember changing the starter motor on it, in the pouring rain in the gutter. My shoulder forming a dam against the water.
Happy days 🙂
Times when I have had the most money and the most nice things have not been when I have been the happiest 🙂
Motorbikes and scooters are fine as long as you have the proper training and ride with the ethos that literally everyone cannot see you but would try and kill you if they could. I rode for 20 years on and off without incident like that. As for stabilty I had a go on a mates Gilera Runner and it seemed fine stopped well and went ok too.
I was insured on my mum's car for many years (and strangely still am for some reason). With Direct Line, I built up my own no claims bonus so got my own policy when I came to need a car at a huge discount.
He doesn't NEED a car at 18, just would make life a lot easier. We live in a very rural area with no buses etc, and currently he borrows parents cars when he is home. Getting to and from college each week is a pain as we have to go and fetch him
Find him a place to live near the college? Probably cheaper and less hassle.
Modern scooters are not underbraked - my 80cc 60 mph one had a set of brembo discs the size of those on full size bikes.I suspect your friends were underskilled.
I'd agree (clearly they're fairly stable and ridden sensibly they're probably fine) but I suspect most new drivers are underskilled. All of my scooter owning mates crashed too, though were fortunately not too badly hurt.
Only problem with a motorbike for all weather transport is in the winter you arrive everywhere smelling like a wet dog
I never had a problem with smell (textile rather than leather jacket probably helped) loseing feeling in my extremities was more of a concern! I used to arrive at school and have to borrow some warm alcohol from the science labs to defrost the locks and get the key out of the ignition!
Motorcycles / scooters are not a particularly cheap option as decent training and protective kit does not come cheap
True, if you're in the North East I can give you a good recomendation for training, if your in the South East I can give you one to avoid!
Protective kit isn't extortionate, a good branded helmet costs less than some kids deem acceptable for a pair or trainers!
Crashing is a fact of life for some people, I made it through 2 years with nothing worse than droping it in a gravel car park in 10,000miles. My brother destroyed his twice in a year, and I know plenty of others who did the same, equaly plenty of people didn't crash. Something like a CG125 handles much better than a scooter though.
The PITA is for people like me with odd shaped heads who can try on every helmet in the Geroge White sale, pick the best fitting regardless of cost then have to bin it 3 hours later as it's still not big enough/the right shape! The helmet buying itself is an expensive* hobby!
*Anoyingly the only one thats ever fitted properly was a £20 chinese made MX one! And I'm not trusting my head in that!
ebygomm - Member
How does it work in other countries where the car is insured not the driver? Is insurance generally more expensive for everyone, but would work out cheaper for youngsters?...
In Oz 3 party insurance is part of the annual "rego" so young drivers can afford to run a car. Everyone pays the same. It does not cover damage to 3rd party property though, so they have to be careful not to ding Mercs & BMWs.
Times when I have had the most money and the most nice things have not been when I have been the happiest
+1.
I never had a problem with smell (textile rather than leather jacket probably helped) loseing feeling in my extremities was more of a concern! I used to arrive at school and have to borrow some warm alcohol from the science labs to defrost the locks and get the key out of the ignition!
You never had the problem 😉
The PITA is for people like me with odd shaped heads who can try on every helmet in the Geroge White sale, pick the best fitting regardless of cost then have to bin it 3 hours later as it's still not big enough/the right shape! The helmet buying itself is an expensive* hobby!
I take it you've looked at the AGV Tech Ti hats?
Bell may also still do custom fits, I've still got 2 I bought 8 or 9 years ago, they weren't that much more expensive
bazzer - MemberNo way in hell I'd be giving my son a motorbike at 17. I saw what happened to a good proportion of my mates who had them at that age...
Then should you trust him with a car ?
It's a fair point but again, based on my own experience, those same people who drove their motorbikes like nutters didn't drive cars in the same way. I reckon motorbikes encourage that behaviour (amongst teens at least) since even crap ones are very quick in comparison to crap cars.
It's a fair point but again, based on my own experience, those same people who drove their motorbikes like nutters didn't drive cars in the same way. I reckon motorbikes encourage that behaviour (amongst teens at least) since even crap ones are very quick in comparison to crap cars.
Also to be fair there is a bigger margin for error in a car. I have slid into a verge as a young driver in a car and drove away from it. So sometimes the consequences can be less, same accident on bike I would have at least been bruised.
To be honest apart from the first 15ft from the lights a learner legal 125 is pretty slow. I know as I rode my mates the other day. I remembered them being much faster 🙂
I ride with a completely different mindset now to when I was 17. I am not immortal any more 🙂
he is a student ... They are clearly given everything they own and therefore have no concept of value or responsibility
Not all of them. Some buy their own things. Perhaps that's a route to take?
First: make him ring round insurers himself 😉
Second: make him get a job and save up for a car
he is a student ... They are clearly given everything they own and therefore have no concept of value or responsibilityNot all of them. Some buy their own things. Perhaps that's a route to take?
First: make him ring round insurers himself
Second: make him get a job and save up for a car
MikeT - I was referring to the Insurance company mindset, not my own.
Get him a part time Job so he can state an occupation on the insurance form (admin is a pretty good bet) and start paying toward the insurance too? Even 4 hours a week counts as a job...
The IAM has recently introduced a scheme where you can go for an assessment as a potential pre-cursor to taking the advanced test.
Cost is just £40 refundable against the cost of the 'Skill for Life' course (which includes the book and as many on road sessions as he'd need, plus the test for an incredible £99.
http://www.iam.org.uk/momentum.html