[Closed] Cameron's speach.

didnt merkel give the same speach last year?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11559451

To be fair, Trevor Phillips (former head of the CRE) said pretty much the same about six years ago: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1055221.ece

of course Trevor cannot be racist, because he's brown, innit - while Cameron must be racist, cos he's an evil Tory...

when is his speech on how bad spelling is getting these days?

Quite possibly! 😳

Making a speEch ( :P) in the ancestral home of Nazism isn't the best idea really.

I find the idea of Cameron's peach rather disturbing.

z11 are u suggesting cameron is racist?

Hold the front page, Cameron in "tell'em what the want to hear" shocker.

tell who what they want to hear, this lot.....?
[img] [/img]
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-12372713

ps i was born in luton so this makes me sad

At a security conference in Munich, he argued the UK needed a stronger national identity to prevent people turning to all kinds of extremism.

Yeah, go Dave. Building an ever strengthening national identity seems like the ideal formula for combatting disenfranchisement,alienation and inevitable reaction to it.

Idiot.

Idiot.

While I don't disagree, I'm flabbergasted at the decision to make this speech. To whom is he pandering? It wasn't anything to do with the group of right wing nutter parties that the EuroTories have grouped up with in Brussels is it?

Actually, on checking, no, I don't think it is.

So, yeah, idiot!

of course Trevor cannot be racist, because he's brown, innit - while Cameron must be racist, cos he's an evil Tory...

That's one of the stupidest things you've said on here.

And that's [i]really[/i] saying something... 🙄

I'm more concerned with who has their hand up Cameron's arse, making his mouth work, than the words that come out of it.

Deadlydarcy asked

To whom is he pandering?

Our survey showed [url= http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23920320-britons-have-greater-fear-of-immigration-than-other-nations.do ]9 out of 10 Britons demand tougher border controls[/url]

but cameron never mentioned border controls in his speach?

😕

but cameron never mentioned border controls in his speach?

On the one hand, those on the hard right ignore this distinction between Islam and Islamist extremism and just say:
Islam and the West are in irreconcilable. This is a clash of civilisations.
So it follows: we should cut ourselves off from this religion - whether that's through the forced repatriation favoured by some fascists or the banning of new mosques as suggested in some parts of Europe.
These people fuel Islamaphobia. And I completely reject their argument......
Under the doctrine of state multiculturalism, we have encouraged different cultures to live separate lives, apart from each other and the mainstream.
We have failed to provide a vision of society to which they feel they want to belong.
We have even tolerated these segregated communities behaving in ways that run counter to our values.
So when a white person holds objectionable views - racism, for example - we rightly condemn them.
But when equally unacceptable views or practices have come from someone who isn't white, we've been too cautious, frankly even fearful, to stand up to them.
The failure of some to confront the horrors of forced marriage the practice where some young girls are bullied and sometimes taken abroad to marry someone they don't want to is a case in point.
This hands-off tolerance has only served to reinforce the sense that not enough is shared.

.....
Frankly, we need a lot less of the passive tolerance of recent years and much more active, muscular liberalism.
A passively tolerant society says to its citizens: as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone.
It stands neutral between different values. A genuinely liberal country does much more.
It believes in certain values and actively promotes them.
Freedom of speech. Freedom of worship. Democracy. The rule of law. Equal rights regardless of race, sex or sexuality.
It says to its citizens: this is what defines us as a society.
To belong here is to believe in these things.
Each of us in our own countries must be unambiguous and hard-nosed about this defence of our liberty.
There are practical things we can do as well.
That includes making sure immigrants speak the language of their new home.
And ensuring that people are educated in elements of a common culture and curriculum.

Think he is saying we have seperate communities in this country for some Muslims which is clearly true. Where I work we have effectively Muslim and non Muslim schools.
Secondly he is saying we should challenge some aspect of their system and encourage [force?] some to live more to our ways as in how the country generally live.

Not that radical though there will be little agreement about what these shared values should be.

I was listening to it this evening on R4. Sadiq Kahn is going to give himself an aneurysm if he keeps on like that...

Not that radical though there will be little agreement about what these shared values should be.

Nor what mechanism to use to "encourage [force?]" someone.

Think he is saying we have seperate communities in this country for some Muslims which is clearly true.

The exact same can be said for Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist etc communities. Xept they aren't 'sexy' enough for the media to get all excited about.

Where I work we have effectively Muslim and non Muslim schools.

Are you talking about actual 'faith' schools, or just standard ones with a large number of pupils from Muslim families? Cos that's like, a little bit different.

There are far, far more 'Christian' schools in this country than Muslims ones. Yet no-one seems to bother too much about them.

[url= http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8415678.stm ]And this Jewish school actually discriminated on racial grounds.[/url]

Interesting that people don't seem to get as worked up over such things though, eh?

FWIW I don't think religion has a place in the education of children in what should be a fair and egalitarian, non-discriminatory environment. So I'd strip all 'faith' schools of such status, and ban such religious indoctrination in schools, but then I'm a tyrant. 🙂

True, but it's the mood of the country, unfortunately.

its a misleading headline in a right leaning paper

the survey asked if we should have better border controls and went on to say [i]the majority think most migrants are hard-working and fill jobs that might otherwise not be done.[/i]

even to say people [u]demand[/u] is rubbish no one demanded it they just answered a question a survey

It's a bit of an appeal to middle England in response to polling that suggests that Brits are concerned about immigration because so many of his other policies have not been popular (libraries, NHS, forests, jobs, bankers). I think the Big Society will be built around opposing these policies.

Deadlydarcy asked

To whom is he pandering?

Our survey showed 9 out of 10 Britons demand tougher border controls

Because all muslims in the UK come from outside of the UK don't they ? 🙄

Are you suggesting that Cameron is only pandering to people too mentally frail to work out the actualities of the situation ?

i did not mean they were Islamic schools I mean the two communities go to different schools, live in different areas, dont really socialise together fr play 5 a side/cricket together through choice. Yes other communities are seperated but they tend to not be producing home grown terrorsits.
There is an issue of integration that fuels the BNP and leads to many people feeling the need to join the EDL . A recent survey showed that we[UK population] were more worried about immigration than the Dutch or the Germans who have higher levels than we do.
We do need to address the issue on both sides.
I walk home via an area where I rarely see a white face and all the shops are Asian - jewellery, clothes, food etc. Personally I dont care and it does not worry/bother me in the slightest. I suspect a plea to liberal tolerance may not work to well with either the EDL or Islamicic extremisits ,zionist ones or any extremist actually.
Not sure about trying to impose cultural values either as I am not sure that the A & A approach to women [western tolernace???]is actually any more respectful than than Jihab approach. Seems little common ground between the two given each side thinks their way respects women more and I think neither does it very well.

What is a country defined as these days? In the past it was defined by your king, nationalism and and a common nation state such as English in England only came later. You could also have an empire which I suppose is a bit like multiculturalism but that kind of relies on a strong leader as the different groups all want to go in different ways.

These days the biggest outlet of nationalism is sport, great as it stops us killing each other but then do the edl really know what or how to define Englishness? The strange thing about these kind of groups is that they define themselves by what they are not not what they are except footy and waving an England flag around

I am all for the kind of things Dave is talking about and I do believe that many of these should be rammed downn everybody's throats. Equality of the sexes, division of the state and religion, religion is a private matter, the rule of law and freedom from corruption. The American right is a funny thing in these matters, the founding fathers where in the whole apathetic about religion and said that religion and the state should be separate. The bit about god in the oath of allegiance was actually added latter.

It would be nice to think Dave did really believe in those things but I get the feeling he believes more strongly in the free market a personal choice which kind of got us into this problem to start with.

Yes other communities are seperated but they tend to not be producing home grown terrorsits.

So, where do you think the anger and hatred within groups of disaffected young men comes from?

Right, so we've got gangs of (mainly) White football hooligans glassing each other in pubs in town centres of a Saturday night, gangs of (mainly) young Black men involved in knife and gun crime, etc. Far too many needless deaths as a result of tensions within both groups.

But

Do young White and Black men feel as alienated, demonised and under suspicion as young Asian/Muslim men, in the UK? The progressive and well-orchestrated demonisation and systematic discrediting of Islam, which has been prevalent in Western Society for the last two decades, has created a climate of fear, mistrust and hate. Is it any wonder then, why some angry, frustrated misguided young fools resort to such extreme measures to prove themselves as 'men'? Why is it that violence is far more prevalent within poorer communities?

20 years ago, Muslims were happily getting along in the UK, and no-one but a few Nazis were at all fussed about them.

So, tell me what's suddenly changed? Did Muslims, as a collective faith, suddenly decide to wage war on the West?

Or did something else happen, to trigger things off?

The is an interesting book about what happened to Islam, I for one can remember being a bit shocked and thinking it was terribly un-English when I was young and they started burning the salman rushdie book, in Europe religion was a personal matter, please ignore NI it is a bit of an anomaly, so these people in tv getting very aggressive was not what our culture was used to. Our religion was slowly dying and being ridiculed in the media and nobody cared, think life of Brian. Anyway our perception of Islam has also been shaped by the active few on the Muslim side like the Muslim parliament which reflects a very small section of society but is organised so the media and politicians use than as the authentic voice.

[url= http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/books/book_reviews/article6015501.ece ]torygraph review[/url]
[url= http://m.guardian.co.uk/books/2009/jan/11/salman-rushdie-satanic-verses?cat=books&type=article ]leftyain[/url]

[b]Elfinsafety[/b] the progressive and well-orchestrated demonisation and systematic discrediting of Islam, which has been prevalent in Western Society for the last two decades, has created a climate of fear, mistrust and hate. Is it any wonder then, why some angry, frustrated misguided young fools resort to such extreme measures to prove themselves as 'men'?

so you agree with there actions then

Elfinsafety - Member
So, where do you think the anger and hatred within groups of disaffected young men comes from?

Ulster?

Its kind of funny how a lot of friends from the mainland always ask me 'How come your lot don't get on with one another?'..........

20 years ago, Muslims were happily getting along in the UK, and no-one but a few Nazis were at all fussed about them.

We had the Ruskies to worry about as bogeymen then though, so Muslims were safe.

Western society is predominantly Christian like it or not ever since the Roman left.

where do you think the anger and hatred within groups of disaffected young men comes from?

So, tell me what's suddenly changed? Did Muslims, as a collective faith, suddenly decide to wage war on the West?

Does the west demonise Islam? Yes
Do aspects of islamic countries demonise the west ? Yes - see Iran for example
Is to wrong and unhelpful on both sides? YES

Or did something else happen, to trigger things off?

As you knwo I am not against direct action and think the ANC were justified in theri use of violence but I do not see these people as freedom fighters in any way. They can freely practice their religion here for example so are no one is actually waging war on their faith/religion though western foreign policy is ,clearly, of dubious morality. I am not sure Iran or Saudi Arabia's is actually much better tbh they just have far less power to weild.

The is an interesting book about what happened to Islam, I for one can remember being a bit shocked and thinking it was terribly un-English when I was young and they started burning the salman rushdie book, in Europe religion was a personal matter

Forget everything else, just teach that.

Our religion was slowly dying and being ridiculed in the media and nobody cared, think life of Brian.

See, it's comments like that the cause division and distrust. Who's religion exactly is ' [b]Our religion[/b]' and it must follow that where there's an 'us' there must be a them.

If multiculturalism has failed, it's because of the failure of people to recognise that Britain is a ' we' not a them and us.

trailmonkey - Member

"Our religion was slowly dying and being ridiculed in the media and nobody cared, think life of Brian."

See, it's comments like that the cause division and distrust. Who's religion exactly is ' Our religion' and it must follow that where there's an 'us' there must be a them.

If multiculturalism has failed, it's because of the failure of people to recognise that Britain is a ' we' not a them and us.

Your "religion" or the society you live in is dominated by Christianity. There is "them" and "us" since time begins and will be forever because we human maggots think that way.

Unfortunately, you might think that you are a "we" but others see that as opportunity to dominate. Yeah right ... "we" so long as the "we" is defined by me.

🙄

I agree but cultural clashes is a part of human culture presumably since tribal times.
Take female dress for example. Whilst I have no real probelm with people covering up or dressing like Jordan it is , after all , their choice. There does seem little common ground between a belief in dressing modestly and Jordan - plenty of others example exits every weekend on the streets of Britain.
Which cultural belief trumps which when we have a debate?

So describe 'us' except we all live in the same place or as I said before do we live in an empire where we all look after ourselves as long as we don't rock the boat or question those in power?

Your "religion" or the society you live in is dominated by Christianity. There is "them" and "us" since time begins and will be forever because we human maggots think that way.

But I have no religion, I was born and raised in England and I'm white anglo/irish, so where does that put me in the us/them/ours/theirs scheme of things.

If we have any pretensions to be a multicultural society then there is only room for we.

Trailmonkey I bet a lot of your morals etc have their origin in the enlightenment. Not everybody would believe in those key beliefs. Sorry if I am wrong.

you are wrong because you mistakenly thought that i have any morals at all.

😉

Then why do you care if there is a them or us?

Having studied American history more than I have British history, I am going to have to use language more associated with studies of their society, but I think it also applies here, and maybe is what Cameron is getting at.

One of the fundamental ideologies that people hoped would characterise American society whas the notion that America, as a whole, was a "melting pot" i.e. where people of different cultures and beliefs were all assimilated into one national identity.

This identity was not to be based on the idea that everyone had to believe the same things and live the same way, but was based on the idea that everyone had the freedom to believe and practice whatever they wanted to.

It was the fact that everyone was united behind the principle of freedom of expression and the freedom to live your way, and that your culture could contribute equally to society as a whole, that gave the nation it's identity.

To use a cliched analogy: It's a bit like totally different instruments coming together to form beautiful music.

However, what many think has happened it that what we have ended up with is not so much a "melting pot", but more of a "salad bowl", where different cultures mix alongside one another, but don't really blend into a cohesive society; resulting in a society that is characterised by social tension. You have each culture vying with on another to be one the one that "contributes" the most to the make-up of the country.

Perhaps that is what Cameron is referring to, or something like that. I have to admit that I haven't heard the whole speech so I have probably missed something.

#trailmonkey - Member

"Your "religion" or the society you live in is dominated by Christianity. There is "them" and "us" since time begins and will be forever because we human maggots think that way."

But I have no religion, I was born and raised in England and I'm white anglo/irish, so where does that put me in the us/them/ours/theirs scheme of things.

If we have any pretensions to be a multicultural society then there is only room for we.

It does not matter if you have a religion or not or if you are purple, green or pink in colour as you are in a Christian dominated society, so your way of life is influenced by them.

It put you in your position i.e. feel there must be a "we" if a society needs to progress because you insist on identifying yourself as "them".
🙄

chewkw - Member

"It does not matter if you have a religion or not or if you are purple, green or pink in colour as you are in a Christian dominated society, so your way of life is influenced by them."

Are we really? The largest single group in the UK is the atheists.

yup christianity left the building a long time ago

Northwind - Member

chewkw - Member

"It does not matter if you have a religion or not or if you are purple, green or pink in colour as you are in a Christian dominated society, so your way of life is influenced by them."

Are we really? The largest single group in the UK is the atheists.

But I bet long time ago that might not be the case.

kimbers - Member

yup christianity left the building a long time ago

But the siblings live on without knowing ...

🙄

It seems like you think they have a point and that they were provoked into this ?Perhaps they even have some validity to attack the powers and structures that make the decisions. Blowing up buses,whatever the provocation or reasons,seens excessive.

I think you misinterpret my words.

In the last 10 years, Muslim communities in the UK have been under intense scrutiny, and felt increasingly alienated and hated. People have had their doors kicked in in the middle of the night, their children and families terrorised, bin dragged away to be interrogated, had their personal lives splashed all over the media, had to endure character assassination and downright lies told about them in the media, stopped and searched for no reason other than they happen to be brown, or followers of a particular religion. Mosques and community centres have bin raided, workers arrested and interrogated, computers and books confiscated, etc etc. Basically, an entire section of society treated as 'Terror' suspects. Granted, some individuals have rightly bin brought before Justice, and possibly lives saved, but the impact of such actions by the State, towards mainly British Citizens, has created a climate of fear and mistrust which is very largely unjustified and detrimental to harmonious relations. Irish people will tell you of very similar things happening during The Troubles. Some folk to this day still have a distrust of the Irish as an entire group, in the same way many in Britain have a distrust of Muslims, Asians, and even Brown people in general. I've bin abused in pubs and places by ignorant tossers who think it's funny to call me a 'terrorist', Osama Bin Laden, etc etc. simply because of my appearance. Yeah, hilarious.

I see a lot more of the good in Muslim communities than some folk on here. I am no advocate or follower of Islam, and don't believe it to be the right path for myself, but can recognise and appreciate the positive and peaceful nature of a religion which does after all stand for peace and fairness. As do most religions.

Murdering innocent people is not part of Islam. This is something I think too many people fail to realise. Those who seek to kill and maim, to further their own 'cause', are no more 'Muslim' than the EDL or BNP, or those who bomb abortion clinics and target their workers are 'Christian'.

But while a culture of persecution exists, you will get angry nutters who will use it as an excuse to attack that which they claim is their enemy.

The largest single group in the UK is the atheists

Not too sure about that. [url= http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=954 ]A quick Google reveals a large Christian majority[/url]. And I'd reckon there's quite a number of agnostics, as distinct from atheists.

but the siblings live on without knowing?

Depends who you ask and how you ask. British Social Attitudes Survey said almost 50% of people have no religion. The Census figures say 70% of the UK is christian, though that's way out of line with most other surveys- other surveys consistently find around 40% of the population say there is no god.

However when you start to ask about practicing your religion- do you pray? Do you go to church? Do you observe all the central tenets? That's when the argument that this is a christian country goes completely tits up. Less than 1 in 10 of the population can be identified as practicing christians. Everything else is a vote for meh.

chewkw - Member

"But I bet long time ago that might not be the case."

Of course. So what? A long time ago the dinosaurs were the majority but I don't think I want to live my life by their rules.

Elfinsafety,

The others demand less in recognition from the society and impose less on them too. Simply they do not challenge the society they live in unlike Islam that try to dominate or to change others. They do. Fact.

kimbers - Member

but the siblings live on without knowing?

I mean children from Christian parents or ancestors ...

chewkw - Member

"The others demand less in recognition from the society and impose less on them too. Simply they do not challenge the society they live in unlike Islam that try to dominate or to change others."

Ah yes- the other night you said something along these lines about sharia law and how uk law should be absolute, but didn't answer me when I asked how you feel about the beth din. Any chance of an answer now?

Northwind - Member

"But I bet long time ago that might not be the case."

Of course. So what? A long time ago the dinosaurs were the majority but I don't think I want to live my life by their rules.

You don't have to live by their rules but when you try to change that you will also impose your views on others who are weaker than you, so what do you do then?

🙄

I don't even know what that's supposed to mean. I [i]should[/i] live by the dinosaur code?

Northwind - Member

Ah yes- the other night you said something along these lines about sharia law and how uk law should be absolute, but didn't answer me when I asked how you feel about the beth din. Any chance of an answer now?

Nope. I am not referring to sharia law but if sharia law is imposed on the people you are seeing the beginning of an end a way of life.

Nope. You can't compare to beth din either because they impose their views on themselves and do not cause trouble to others here (this country).

Northwind - Member

I don't even know what that's supposed to mean. I should live by the dinosaur code?

Nope. You don't have to but also do not impose.

🙄

Basically, an entire section of society treated as 'Terror' suspects

Those who seek to kill and maim, to further their own 'cause', are no more 'Muslim' than the EDL or BNP, or those who bomb abortion clinics and target their workers are 'Christian'

elfinsafety - that's hilarious

I've just replaced the words 'Muslim community' with 'Irish community' and it all reads the same 'cept 10 years later.

Stop complaining its someone else's turn..........

chewkw - Member
"Nope. I am not referring to sharia law but if sharia law is imposed on the people you are seeing the beginning of an end a way of life."

So it's just as well that there's absolutely no chance of that happening really.

We do not routinely raid mosques - just the ones that preach a certain brand of Islam.

Bollocks. Come down here, and I'll introduce to to Imams and staff at mosques what have been raided round here. Do you think every raid and search makes the papers? There's loads going on that hardly anyone gets to know about. Do you have any idea about the number of raids and searches, compared to the actual number of convictions? Incredibly disproportionate.

I am sure the EDL and the BNP also feel they are demonised by the state/media and unfairly targetted as well and have been raided and stopped on the streets etc. Are we unfairly targetting white working class short haired tatooed fat balding low intelligence males now as well? Is it just because of the way they look?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Copeland

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8462205.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lancashire/6923933.stm

Funny; I don't see everyone demonising White British people as an entire group, because a tiny minority are dangerous lunatics...

Whilst I dont disagree with you I think you will find that the suicide bombers are indeed devout Muslims and are following their faith in doing these acts as indeed are the Christians.

They're deluded nutters using religion as something to hide behind. Islam expressly forbids the killing of innocent people, especially women, children and the frail and elderly. So, these scum are not acting in the name of Islam, whatever they may claim.

I notice the gay policemen and their surrogate "son" are keeping quiet about this.

i really dont think anyone in the uk is persecuted 'properly'. it wouldnt be politcally correct.

I don't see everyone demonising White British people as an entire group, because a tiny minority are dangerous lunatics...

So, these scum are not acting in the name of Islam

[b]salam alaikum[/b]