[Closed] Calorie counting on UK menus from today

They don't like the 'nanny state' so I'm surprised they've gone this far. Though they did introduce the sugar tax which is arguably a more severe intervention.

why?

This is a country which called 999 when KFC ran out of chicken.

The random use of “calories” when they mean K calories is going to drive me up the wall.

Indeed. It's what people understand though.

We're heading for the demolition man society, where you can only get rat burgers and beer if you live in the sewers with the savages and salt/booze are illegal.

It allows ministers who should have people’s health in mind to say that they’ve “done something, and if it doesn’t work, well then that’s not their fault, is it?”

It allows them to make small gradual changes which are (a) likely to receive wide support across parties, (b) unlikely to be significantly unpopular with the electorate (c) likely to have high compliance (d) when they do fail are likely to have been seen to do so because they didn't go far enough.

It allows them to do similar again when it fails to work ad infinitum, and, in several decades or so to reach the significant changes you wanted whilst maintaining all those things.
This is the nature of a democracy.

If you try to make those major changes in one step it fails on at least one of the things above, at best achieves zero but at worst is counterproductive.
It's why we've not banned cars and fossil fuels despite the fact it would save huge numbers of lives.
Its why some of the first things Trump did, some of his biggest pledges were to get rid of Obama care and roll back on green policies.

I’m the PM of a inner city GP surgery, try to guess how many type 2 diabetics we see on a boring Thursday morning.

Fair enough.

Restaurants are not going to drastically change their menus any time soon, so why not start doing everything we can to educate people on calories in general, and everything we can to make those conversations about food and health part of everyday life?

We could begin with a relatively easy win like printing calorie info on restaurant menus, and then take it from there. By itself, it's not going to solve the problem, but even the process of doing it, and the PR it has generated, has sparked lots of conversation and awareness about it - including on this forum.

We've got to start somewhere, right?

I don't know @mattyfez, I'm not an expert, i just see the results of a environment that people are free to make themselves wildly unhealthy (that is going to cost all us increasingly more and more if left untackled) via the medium of food on a staggeringly routine day to day level.

We (as a nation) increasingly cannot cope with the level of illness that environment is causing. Arguably we're already there. It is unsustainable.

https://www.bmj.com/content/367/bmj.l5837

In this sample of 104 fast food restaurants in the southern US, calorie labeling was associated with a small decrease in mean calories per transaction after implementation, but this was followed by a gradual weekly increase that partially attenuated this association over the next year. These results imply that calorie labeling alone may not be enough to make sustainable reductions in calorie intake in fast food restaurants.

Is the most positive study I'm aware of: small and probably temporary decrease. People get used to things fast. The chance of this having impact on overall calorie consumption, let alone local population levels of obesity are pretty much zero, chance of negative impact on people whose mental health has a food aspect - not zero.

Me, I find it a minor but definite annoyance. Found myself in a Bistro Pierre the other day. Small chain of non-fast food, already got this on the menu. Steaks were okay.

It's the pointlessness of it - this is not an effective public health measure - whilst giving the appearance government wants do something. I would withhold their puddings in no uncertain terms.

i just see the results of a environment that people are free to make themselves wildly unhealthy (that is going to cost all us increasingly more and more if left untackled) via the medium of food on a staggeringly routine day to day level.

The only bit there which is relevant is the bit in bold. That's the bit you want to change.

The only bit there which is relevant is the bit in bold

the term is 'obesogenic environment' and theoretical freedom aside, in practice people tend to make the easiest choices. If you're on a low income in a fast food joint part of town the easiest choices are more likely to make you fat.

But their freedom to make themselves very poorly is going to affect your ability to access healthcare, and increasingly it will make larger and larger demands on it. Nothing happens in society in a vacuum.

But their freedom to make themselves very poorly is going to affect your ability to access healthcare, and increasingly it will make larger and larger demands on it. Nothing happens in society in a vacuum.

Will it? I thought pensions were a bigger part of public finance, anything that lowers life expectancy is probably a net saving.

That above article is quite interesting

I'm intrigued, I was just about to post the absolute opposite. It was just a bunch of numbers with absolutely no context.

I think the key thing is that I haven't got a scooby what a kcalorie actually is and how many of them I need.

You are probably better informed and so could make conclusions.

I have a vague recollection of someone mentioning 8,000 kc in a day, but have a sneaky suspicion that was in response to my WHW picnic post, so not a normal daily target:-)

But their freedom to make themselves very poorly is going to affect your ability to access healthcare, and increasingly it will make larger and larger demands on it. Nothing happens in society in a vacuum.

Of course, but my freedom and my life is no more or less important than theirs.

I've fallen off my bike and broken bones, and ruptured my spleen, being on my bike was a choice and put requirements on the health system. Should I be allowed to make that choice?

My ability to access healthcare (and multitudes of other things) could be vastly improved by for example, ceasing to prescribe life extending (as distinct from curative) medications. Should we do that?

I have a vague recollection of someone mentioning 8,000 kc in a day, but have a sneaky suspicion that was in response to my WHW picnic post, so not a normal daily target:-)

Hahaha, for a rugby player maybe 😉

But for example if you aiming for a more normal 2500kcal or 3000kcal per day, and your lunch weighs in at 1500, or 2000, not uncommon, then add a beer or a coke... it's not hard to think twice and give me a nudge get the pasta rather than the all day breakfast.

anything that lowers life expectancy is probably a net saving.

quite aside from being a teensy bit cynical, they do take up quite a bit of care while they're still alive.

These results imply that calorie labeling alone may not be enough to make sustainable reductions in calorie intake in fast food restaurants.

Too many posts to read, but I worked in a McD's 20 years ago and calories were on the menu then! Even the Wetherspoons menus have had this info for donkeys years.

I did a calorie restricted diet many years ago and found the info helped me make more informed choices.

With knowledge of close others with eating disorders, I maintain that food should not be reduced to numbers or anything that negatively impacts on mental health.

I disagree, this argument conflates the issues here, those people have mental health issues for which adding or removing info on a menu wont make much difference!

Should I be allowed to make that choice?

Probably. the benefits to your health of cycling probably outweigh the demands placed on healthcare service by your accident. Plus although it may seem quite expensive, the cost of putting you back together again to continue with your otherwise healthy activity aren't that much in the scheme of things, and certainly less than the ongoing care involved in managing a disease like type 2 diabetes.

This will be very helpful for those who are already monitoring their calorie intake. Previously eating out was often largely guess work in that respect. But if you're not already doing that, then I can't see it making much difference.

Might be useful when folk are ordering a skinny choca mokka with syrup and marshmallows.
Some of the stuff that pretends to be coffee is a whole meal+.

"As the only festive drink on all coffee shop Christmas menus to break the 600 calorie mark, a large sized cup comes in at 660 calories – more than a quarter of your recommended daily allowance (RDA), just in a drink. The sugar content is also shockingly high: at 78.9g of sugar a cup, that’s nearly your whole 90g RDA in one go, equivalent to 3.3 Mars bars."

quite aside form being a teensy bit cynical, they do take up quite a bit of care while they’re still alive.

Just a "teensy bit"? 🙂

What would you actually have the government do then Nick?

Bear in mind that poor diet and obesity are closely linked to income.
Directly targeting the food people eat with taxation is likely to result in poorer diets not better because they don't have the money to make better choices.
Education isn't likely to work because knowing you're being forced to eat rubbish isn't going to make you more likely to choose not to eat. See also better labeling etc.

As much as we might like to think people eating crap do so out of choice, most don't, it's out of necessity. Obesity isn't a result of a McDonalds on every street corner it's a result of a "chicken pie" being cheaper in aldi than enough chicken to make one.

Actually here is a bit of fun* for you. Go to tescos Website and put a healthy basket together for a family of four for under £5 for the day. Now ditch the healthy requirement and see if you can manage it. (it's much easier for a day than a week because one day of eggs, beans and rice doesn't seem that bad, 7 days of that, not so much)

Now bear in mind that low income families are much more likely to have to shop in an expensive shop such as the corner co-op or spa because large, cheap supermarkets are not where they live.

*it won't be fun, it'll be thoroughly depressing.

the benefits to your health of cycling probably outweigh the demands placed on healthcare service by your accident.

Eating junk food makes people happy (or they wouldn't do it). Do the benefits to their mental health of a cheeky Big Mac not then outweigh the demands placed on healthcare service by their weight?

You're cherry-picking. (Which at least is probably quite low-cal.)

Just a “teensy bit”?

perhaps. 🙂

What would you actually have them do then Nick?

See my OP. Address food poverty, education about healthy food choices, easier access to activities. We've pretty much educated people on the dangers of fags after all. (I know we've not stopped it, but i doubt many don't understand the health risks)  It's a long slog, but addressing the availability, the cost, the ingredients, and how it's advertised would top of my list if i had a magic wand.

Obesity isn’t a result of a McDonalds on every street corner it’s a result of a “chicken pie” being cheaper in aldi than enough chicken to make one.

There's a broader issue here too. It's not just cheaper, it's easier. And it's not just easier, it's faster. How many [warning: rash generalisation incoming] poorer families do we think would turn out a chicken pie if given fresh chicken and ingredients for pastry?

Do we teach people how to cook? Back when I was at high school the extent of my cookery lessons was over six weeks where we learned whether it was faster to boil water in a kettle or the oven, and how to make chocolate rice krispies. Life skills, I'm sure.

It's another tax on the poor for sure, but we've created a society where those who most need to have neither the ability not the willingness to cook.

Eating junk food makes people happy (or they wouldn’t do it)

yes, as i said on page one, there's three areas that broadly speaking are why folks over-indulge.

Availability

Association (good and bad)

Accountability (to oneself or others)

We have to devise programs that are free to all, about why they feel the need to eat a bag of donuts, why that makes them happy (or sad or self loathing) and how to break the association.

We’ve pretty much educated people on the dangers of fags after all. (I know we’ve not stopped it, but i doubt many don’t understand the health risks) It’s a long slog, but addressing the availability, the cost, the ingredients, and how it’s advertised would top of my list if i had a magic wand

But fags is by comparison very easy. You don't need fags to live. You can't give up food.

 You can’t give up food.

Although weirdly; the food that's cheap, easily available, and yummy will mostly give you a disease that's going to make you wish you could...

this seems to be another move for the government to shift the responsibility of fixing social problems on to individuals rather than actually doing something about it.

about why they feel the need to eat a bag of donuts, and how to break the association.

So I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess you've never been broke?

I've been there, where food shopping went on CC because there was no money. I'll tell you exactly why I felt the need to eat a bag of donuts, because they were 60p and I needed to eat. I'd frankly have eaten a turd at that point if I thought it was a better option than not.

But fags is by comparison very easy. You don’t need fags to live.

Also: most people gave up fags with the aid of vaping. You get basically the same thing without the bad bits that kill you

Unfortunately theres no calorie free version of a pie. You have to have something else completely different instead and sadly pies are ace and salads are rubbish!

We need the vape equivalent of a sausage roll. Why aren't the government developing them then, eh? WHY?!!

quite aside from being a teensy bit cynical, they do take up quite a bit of care while they’re still alive.

The 'Should I go to my GP' thread today would suggest that it's not as much care as it could be. 😀

We’ve pretty much educated people on the dangers of fags after all. (I know we’ve not stopped it, but i doubt many don’t understand the health risks)

And yet, people still smoke. So education didn't work. And demonstrably also:

addressing... the cost

didn't work.

the ingredients...

didn't work.

and how it’s advertised...

didn't work.

A pack of fags is, what, ten quid? We banned advertising forever ago. We banned smoking pretty much everywhere. The packaging is essentially a warning going [THIS SHIT WILL LITERALLY KILL YOU TO DEATH!] and a photo of a diseased lung. And if I were to go down to ASDA right now I guarantee there will be someone at the concessions counter buying 100 Lambert and twenty quid's worth of scratchcards.

I don't know what the solution is, but if we can't manage to get people looking at cigarettes and going "**** that, are you mad?" then we've got zero chance of dragging anyone away from their lardburger and chips.

We need the vape equivalent of a sausage roll. Why aren’t the government developing them then, eh? WHY?!!

Open goal there, Binners. 😁

So I’m going to go out on a limb here and guess you’ve never been broke?

On the contrary I've been very very poor during my life. Granted I rented a flat and ran a car, but often had to choose between heat and food. Cold showers, weeks of beans etc etc. And yeah I understand the point your making, and yep donuts seemed like manna and was dirt cheap and I often went to MaccyD just to sit and eat chips (I'm veggie) and be warm for a bit

It isn't easy I understand that, I would have more respect for a government that said they had decided to engage with food charities, or not dropped the £20.00 extra, or chosen not to penalise larger families through child benefits. This...This is just cynical, there's enough information out there to show it has limited to no impact, and yet here we are doing none of things govt know work, and doing the thing that we know doesn't.

And yet, people still smoke. So education didn’t work. And demonstrably also:

fewer people smoke than did 20 years ago. (removed that, it was a wee bit aggressive, sorry)

here’s three areas that broadly speaking are why folks over-indulge.

Availability

Because the success of prohibition is well documented.

Oh, hey, maybe we'll see a Brexit Benefit after all, when there's no goddamn food left.

Association (good and bad)

Is this not mostly physiology? We like food which tastes good. Sugar gives us an endorphin rush. We are, I think, evolutionally predisposed to fatty foods for survival? And so forth.

(When it boils down to it, this is the only valid argument that omnivores have against the idea of eating less meat - they simply just like it.)

Accountability (to oneself or others)

How do you make someone care? This is perhaps the crux here. They have to want to do things differently.

(removed that, it was a wee bit aggressive, sorry)

I don't know what you wrote but, don't worry about it. All friends here.

The random use of “calories” when they mean K calories is going to drive me up the wall.

Totally agree with this. I think the main reason I don't have a clue what the RDA calorie energy intake is because my brain automatically shuts down or ignores any input where kcalories and calories are freely interchanged.

I'm not convinced this is the reason for the lard endemic across the UK though...

I don’t know what you wrote but, don’t worry about it. All friends here.

I wrote "FACT" like some **** "pwning" some-one on a message board..idiot

Has anyone else here sat down in a place that has calorie counts after a long day's riding and thought "I'll have that one, it's got the most calories, that sounds ideal?"

Fact- Federation Against Calorie Tabulation?
😉

brain automatically shuts down or ignores any input where kcalories and calories are freely interchanged.

Easy isn't it, kcal is correct as a written unit, calories as anything else. No one uses actual cal outside a lab because they're small to the point of irrelevance.

I assume you don't have the same issue with kilo despite it not being clear if it's kilometres kilograms kilojoules etc?

I’ll have that one, it’s got the most calories, that sounds ideal?

I recall thinking "supersize vanilla shake is [whatever the hell], ohhhh I can afford two"

I like it - calorie and nutrition information do make me re-consider what I'm buying/eating.

I think it needs to be addresses from school age on. I have always thought it daft that you can do maths and biology at school, but often will never learn about calculating taxes, mortgages etc, or what a nutrition label means.

As the father of a 12 year old Type 1 diabetic daughter, we have to give her insulin for every gram of carbohydrate she has, so i welcome actual nutritional information, not just calories.

The sad thing is, McDonalds, is by far the best about actually providing this info. If we go to a proper restaurant, then we are simply guessing the carbs on her plate from experience.

The worst we have found the worst things are "strawberry fruit cooler" or the like at Starbucks / Costa, you eat a burger and you know that it is not healthy, but a small fruit drink, which my daughter wants, can be 30-40g of sugar.

On top of that I am a diet-controlled Type 2 diabetic, following illness, not bad diet, i used to be on a few T2 diabetic FB pages, and if you think putting nutrtional info on a packet is understood by everyone, it is scary just how ignorant people can be, and that a large proportion of the country has no idea the difference between healthy fats and saturated, or processed sugars and low GI carbs etc. Every second post on there is people wanting to put on special "shake and soup diets" or have injections or surgery to stop them eating, as they really don't have the control or ability to read labels and make wise choices.