[Closed] Call for Scottish teachers to have more holidays

Trollish sort of article that - Why the Scottish term starts in August is probably a good question.

The public ear is not at the teachers' disposal on this issue, however. You'd find more people who think bankers deserve bigger bonuses than those who think teachers deserve longer holidays.

Why the Scottish term starts in August is probably a good question.

Tattie holidays innit.

More likely the fact that exam results are posted earlier. don't think even teachers want more holidays.

Bankrupt Scottish Government cutting school/teachers hours to save money

The education system generally in the UK is bankrupt! My daughter is a primary teacher and spent the first 2weeks of her "holidays" stripping and cleaning her classroom in prep for start of term. She has spent the last 2 weeks of the holidays preparing lesson plans. She regularly spends upwards of £20 on materials for class work(we have also subbed this!)
Having lived with a family of teachers for some time and spent a fair bit of time in schools when my kids were going through their education it certainly p*********s me off when people start having a go at them 😈

geoffj - Member
Why the Scottish term starts in August is probably a good question.
Tattie holidays innit.

As I always sat to those who complain a about teachers holidays and pay. Why not go and re train and get all our "perks"

Of course those who complain never do. Wonder why, lols.

Ignorance in respect to the education system in the uk is off the chart.

You guys just don't know what goes on.

Imagine the stink if the holidays were cut to two week sin the summer and kids were absolutely banned from leaving school outside this window. Prices of holidays would sky rocket.

Oh and watch the headlines I wouldn't be surprised if in a couple of weeks a new initiative is introduced in education. This gov seems to like to stir up anger about the public sector before sticking the knife in, with the mob's newly riled support.

Ignorance in respect to the education system in the uk is off the chart.

Oh teh ironing

"You guys just don't know what goes on."

it is true - i live with a teacher and its crazy how much outside of school work needs to be done - she does 8-1800 in school and then comes home and has tea then does more on top most nights and most of sunday afternoon or a very stressed evening on sunday. Admittedly it has been better now shes in her third year of teaching but still - the ammount of extracurricular things that need doing to make a school run and to maintain your job - it seems that showing up and teaching your classes then leaving afterwards is severely frowned upon.

*oh and im neither for nor against more holidays im just stating fact.

Rubbish, we don't want more holidays, and who are school leaders Scotland? Never heard of them myself. Geoffj; while you are posting on here are you aware that lots of goats are crossing your bridge?

I'll agree with trail rat, my other half has been teaching in an academy for 4 years, the amount of preparation she has to do each evening is astonishing!

She gets in at 6, has dinner then works till midnight preparing lessons and marking.

It said teachers in Scotland spend 855 hours a year in class

Add 20% to that for lesson prep etc., and you are looking at 30 weeks per year out of 52

Given the economic climate, job cuts and pay freezes in other public sector professions, it seems a little naive to publish and then promote a report of that ilk.

Ignorance in respect to the education system in the uk is off the chart.

Ignorance in some parts of the teaching profession also needs addressing.

Ignorance in respect to the education system in the [s]uk[/s] [b]world[/b] is off the chart

geoff - im wondering if that figures corrected that most positions advertised for working in schools over the last few years are NOT full time.

stevewhyte - Member
As I always sat to those who complain a about teachers holidays and pay. Why not go and re train and get all our "perks"

geoffj - Member

It said teachers in Scotland spend 855 hours a year in class

The full sentence without culling it to suit your personal agenda :

[b][i]It said teachers in Scotland spend 855 hours a year in class, compared to an international average of 704 hours in early secondary school.[/b][/i]

Fourth country from the left

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Ernie - I'm more interested in comparisons with other professions in the uk.

the 855 hrs is divided by usually 5 1hr slots = 34 weeks

I guess it depends on the subject but surely the lesson planning stuff gets drastically reduced in subsequent years? I know it did for my brother teaching English (he even re-used someone else's lessons plans for his first year). Sure there's marking to do but working 12+ hour days implies they're not very organised...

Ernie - I'm more interested in comparisons with other professions in the uk.

So you don't want to make logical comparisons which compare like for like then ?

Instead of comparing the Scottish teaching environment with other teaching environments, you want to compare it with other, completely unrelated, working environments ? Why ?

I used to teach, I can tell you that it was by far and away the hardest, most demanding and draining job I have ever done. The planning etc I didn't find tough or that time consuming, it was the constant demands from the kids, the management etc that just made it so draining. I couldn't hack it and gave up, it made me a physical and emotional wreak. From 8 until 3.30 you did not get a minute to yourself, either setting up, morning tea 'duty' lunch duty's data input, assembly's etc etc. it's not just the time infront of the class, it's all the other things.

There were many things about the job that I loved, but I will never teach again. Unless you've done it I suggest you shut the hell up, it's a tough job.

I guess it depends on the subject but surely the lesson planning stuff gets drastically reduced in subsequent years? I know it did for my brother teaching English (he even re-used someone else's lessons plans for his first year). Sure there's marking to do but working 12+ hour days implies they're not very organised...

The expectation of what constitutes a 'good' lesson also changes every year so the goalposts keep moving.

Doesn't the report also highlight that Scottish teachers are amongst the very highest paid (8th in that league table IIRC)?

[quote=alexathome ]I used to teach, I can tell you that it was by far and away the hardest, most demanding and draining job I have ever done. The planning etc I didn't find tough or that time consuming, it was the constant demands from the kids, the management etc that just made it so draining. I couldn't hack it and gave up, it made me a physical and emotional wreak. From 8 until 3.30 you did not get a minute to yourself, either setting up, morning tea 'duty' lunch duty's data input, assembly's etc etc. it's not just the time infront of the class, it's all the other things.
There were many things about the job that I loved, but I will never teach again. Unless you've done it I suggest you shut the hell up, it's a tough job.
My wife reckons nursing is a lot tougher/more stressful. You might want to argue against that but

Unless you've done it I suggest you shut the hell up.

druidh - Member

Doesn't the report also highlight that Scottish teachers are amongst the very highest paid (8th in that league table IIRC)?

Which proves that Scottish teachers don't spend above the international average time teaching ? 😕

druidh - Member

My wife reckons nursing is a lot tougher/more stressful. You might want to argue against that but

Wow, read what he put again.

alexathome » I used to teach, I can tell you that it was by far and away the hardest, most demanding and draining job [b]I have ever done.[/b]

geoffj - Member
Ernie - I'm more interested in comparisons with other professions in the uk.

Posted 45 minutes ago # Report-Post

No you aren't.

EIS membership in Scotland; 60,000
School leaders Scotland; >300

Only one of the above has suggested we should have longer holidays.

Which in turn would suggest you are trolling.

[quote=Lifer ]druidh - Member
Wow, read what he put again.
And you might also want to read the last part of his post, the part where he says that you are only allowed to comment if you've ever been a teacher. That rather restricts opinion, don't you think?

My wife reckons nursing is a lot tougher/more stressful. You might want to argue against that but

There is no need for me too, I have never been a nurse, but I can imagine that it would be a lot tougher than teaching. Not only do you have to deal with drunk idiots and unthankful people, you have to deal with folk dying, plus you get worse pay and have to do shift work.

Like I said, I have never done it, but I would support any pay dispute that they had also, it's an incredibly tough job, I'd imagine and one that offers little in the way of reward.

That rather restricts opinion, don't you think?

Only whether it's tough or not. Can you pass judgement on whether doing something is tough without actually doing it ? I suppose you could offer your opinion, but it's unlikely to be particularly valid compared to someone who has had the experience. And that goes for most things in life.

[quote=ernie_lynch ]That rather restricts opinion, don't you think?
Only whether it's tough or not. Can you pass judgement on whether doing something is tough without actually doing it ? I suppose you could offer your opinion, but it's unlikely to be particularly valid compared to someone who has had the experience. And that goes for most things in life.
Indeed. And since we can assume that alexathome hasn't tried [i]every[/i] profession available, can we also say that he's not in a position to say how [i]relatively[/i] tough teaching is?

That's why I didn't waste that teaching was tougher, or less tough than (insert profession of choice). There is no need to be argumentative, I agreed with your wife! I daresay that a lot of jobs are 'tougher' but like you say I have no basis for comparison, however it was by far the toughest job that 'I' have done.

Just thinking back to being personally responsable for classroom of spotty idiots let loose with dangerous machinery has given me shell shock, I'm off for a lie down. 😥

Have a wee Balvenie first 🙂

I'm not passing judgement but i've several freinds who are teachers and they talk about thier jobs a lot and guess what... some say its a nightmare (some have left the profession) and some love it and to be honest i get the impression a lot of it is to do withe the particular school. One of my friends has just moved schools and cannot believe the difference, she was very stressed and was infact very ill as a result (took her over a year to recover) and she seriously contemplated leaving, she moved school and is absolutely loving it and sees a good future. I must say she does put the hours in and is VERY organised which i suspect is part of her sucess. As I say i honestly think there is too much interference in the school especially by the school govorners who can in some cases cause huge problems and wield a lot of influence over school. this is of course my own experience and limited to what i've been told by people in education (and as a parent).

"You guys just don't know what goes on."

Yes we do and some of us are not happy about it.

[b]geoffj[/b]
It said teachers in Scotland spend 855 hours a year in class

So just less than 25 weeks per year based on a 35 hour week
Add 20% to that for lesson prep etc., and you are looking at 30 weeks per year out of 52

Can I have this teaching job, where it only takes 12 minutes to prepare a 1 hour lesson, please? Oh, and mark the work done within the lesson.

I am required to be in work for 200 days per year. In one week, I have 23.5 hours of contact time. That's 940 contact hours per year.

Using your 20%, that's 1128 hours per year - a 32 week year based on a 35 hour week.

In reality, it takes about an hour to prepare a one hour lesson. (I'm lucky in that I teach the same lesson to multiple classes. Primary teachers teach each lesson once and may be preparing two or three different activities for some lessons.)

Using my 100%, that's 1880 hours per year - a 54 week year based on a 35 hour week...

Teachers need more holiday?

No I don't think so. In fact I'd have to say they have a damm cheek!

In my local mountaineering club we have many club trips; abroad, to Scotland to the South Coast etc. I don't have the time to go on many of these as I only have so much leave (5 weeks in fact).

The teachers will insist that these are held in the schoold holidays (fair enough)and most of them go! So where is all this 'I spent the last two weeks of my summer holiday preparing for the new term/marking' etc.

Its all bull. They just need to learn to organise their time better like the rest of us and make do with what you have.

Teachers need more holiday?

No I don't think so. In fact I'd have to say they have a damm cheek!

One person (who, as far as I can tell, isn't a teacher) has looked at a report and made some daft announcement. I don't know of a single teacher who thinks they should have more holidays.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-19561018

More interested in this- I thought Black Adder lopped off his head?

Its not about whether they should or should not have the holiday that they do its more a response their insistance that their all hard done to, work to hard and in a stressful jobs.

That may be true, but no more so than the average Joe P.

Frodo - Member
Its not about whether they should or should not have the holiday that they do its more a response their insistance that their all hard done to, work to hard and in a stressful jobs.

That may be true, but no more so than the average Joe P.

Posted 8 minutes ago # Report-Post

Sorry; what does the above mean?

their insistance that their all hard done to

I think you should provide evidence to back up your claim. I can't see any evidence which suggests teachers are all claiming that they are hard done by, if that's what you're trying to say (your English grammar is fairly poor)

duckman - Member

I suspect it means a polite, suck it up or change your job as life is tough for others also. Could be wrong though.

(your English grammar is fairly poor)

Do you blame him or his teachers?

I'm not blaming anyone, my own English grammar is pisspoor, I simply made the comment to illustrate why I wasn't entirely sure what point he/she was trying to make.

I see what you mean, I suspected straight away he was not being supportive to teachers.

I suspect it means a polite, suck it up or change your job as life is tough for others also.

In a nut shell ...yes.

Yes my grammer is poor, a product of trying to do six things at the same time!

I suspected straight away he was not being supportive to teachers.

Yes I did too. I was however interested in his apparent suggestion that teachers are all claiming that they are hard done by. I wasn't entirely sure that was what he was saying due to his rather poor grammar. As you probably could have figured out if you had read my post more diligently.

Hmmm; who are these teachers who do little work and moan about how hard done by they are? It is just that,as a teacher myself,I don't know any. Strange that people with an axe to grind about teachers seem to know of plenty.

Can I have this teaching job, where it only takes 12 minutes to prepare a 1 hour lesson, please? Oh, and mark the work done within the lesson.

you didn't meet my old A level maths teacher, brilliant guy worked on the design of the Vulcan before teaching. Great teacher, if the results of the weekly test were down he used to blame himself for not getting the subject across

you also missed the bit about leaving 5 mins before the end of school to beat the rush and to get to the golf course 😀

Of the teachers I know ( one being my wife ), I wouldn't say they are looking for more holidays.

A lot of teachers comments seem to be similar to other professions in that the expectations on them are being increased ( or significantly changed ) without the resource being provided to meet those expectations. thats true of many jobs nowadays.

My wife puts in a lot of hours outwith her time at school, and she is a well organised person in general. Those hours add up to well more than the shortfall of a 9 till half 3 school opening hours period compared to an stereotype 9 till 5 office role. Any assumption that teachers have an easy time of it is in my opinion mis-placed.

But, as ever, its a role similar to the Police and other professions where doesn't really matter how you try to defend it, folk can't see past assumptions.

[quote=fisha ]compared to an stereotype 9 till 5 office role.
Another stereotype which received a fair beating on this forum last week.

whys that then colin ? i read the thread and i just saw people conforming to whats expected of them by the buckling of their peers

i do 8-4.30 anything outside that (and i do do a fair bit of outside hours work - not overtime but out of the country or offshore work) they pay me for or/and i get time in leiu.

why would you do anything else ? which in essence is what teachers / nurses / firemen etc are all being asked to do - work more hours for the same pay and the bottom line is this habit is doing folk out of jobs ..... but thats not the governments fault oh no !

i guess the short of it is the public sector in this country is ****ed- you really have to have a love your job to keep at it - i know thats the only reason mrs tr is still a teacher

[quote=trail_rat ]whys that then colin ? i read the thread and i just saw people conforming to whats expected of them by the buckling of their peers My point is that very few were saying they only worked 9-5, so as a stereotype, it's incorrect.

Whether folk [i]should[/i] work outwith those hours is a different argument.

you really have to have a love your job to keep at it - i know thats the only reason mrs tr is still a teacher

Myself and mrs clink are both teachers. We both hate it. If we could easily get other jobs and still pay the mortgage/bills etc we would.

I dont know any teachers who would seriously suggest they need more holidays ut having said that you can get more in the private sector if you want them. Ironic that really.

as a teacher myself, I would just like the goal posts of what the kids need to do to pass to stop moving. Science curriculum seems to be changed all the bloody time. Pay isnt too bad, but we'd all like more obviously. Pensions changes were a bloody disgrace given such a recent review. I'd also like to be not told I'm shit by Gove all the time and'd like the goal posts of what makes a good teacher to stop moving too. In short I'd like the politicians to stop interferring before any previou changes have had an effect.

I'd also like to be not told I'm shit by Gove all the time and'd like the goal posts of what makes a good teacher to stop moving too.

I agree. I don't want more holidays. I fact I would readily give up a couple of weeks to get my Sundays back during term time.

In fact I would readily give up a couple of weeks to get my Sundays back during term time.

Snap.

Last weekend was probably the last 2 day weekend I'll have until May.

In general, just because you went to school, it doesn't mean you are an expert on education. Unfortunatley, most people have a perception of teaching, and education more widely, as the act of standing in front of people regurgitating facts and recieved wisdom about this or that subject. Good teachers, lecturers, trainers and others (including sports coaches) excercise far more judgement than this and work hard to ensure that the approaches and techniques they use are effective for their particular learners. This takes time and preparation, as does organising interesting lessons, trips, activities, resources, and so on...

As somebody who works in Scottish education, with a wife who is a Depute Head Teacher too, I would suggest that most peoples understanding of what it really takes to deliver an effective education system is vastly out of alignment with reality. If you want kids to do well you need good teachers, with professionalism and the ability to make judgements about the best approaches to use. This requires the time to plan learning and develop their practice.

On the holidays front, my wife spends at least half of her holidays in school, she works from 8am -6pm everyday (always) and often works at weekends. This is expected and necessary to do her job. She has also said she would trade holiday entitlement for more flexibilty in when she takes her leave. She worked for 2 years on a Government secondment with far less holiday and said she would prefer this any day.

The bottom line is that teacher's contracts, and reports in the media, rarely reflect the reality of working in the profession. I think this is unfair to teachers and gives the impression they have it easy. They certainly don't.

As an aside, the Scottish education system is very different both historically, and currently, to the English system. Just to let you know that.

...and as with all the other public sector targets so carefully beaten on by a Tory Government in an attempt to soften them up and therefore reduce costs by reducing wages and pensions, in the long term it becomes self defeating for us as a country because the bright ones, the clever ones, the inspired ones, the valuable ones get pissed off and either don't become teachers or do and then leave.

Well done Tory people, well done. Just as the dirty shadow of Thatcher extended into the future, so Cameron will have his legacy.

Short term, morally bankrupt, self serving politicians, I've shit 'em.

the irony of all this is that not 1 post has mentioned the children, our future, and what this could mean to them.

I personally think children have too much time off school, whether holidays, in service days etc. This surely must harm their education.

On this basis the 'governors' need to subscribe to an ideal of what children have to learn whilst in education and under what time frame. If this means at school 40 weeks a year then so be it. We need to be teaching them about life and ideas of what work life constitutes. The teachers then take hoildays in conjunction with this schedule.

The teachers i know, and i know alot do work hard, and put in the hours and are paid accordingly. I also understand that with alot of time off this means they spend alot of money ( if your not earning your spending philosophy). Like any job you sign up to an ideal, a portrait of work in that role. Things you will know for certain, i.e. your holiday entitlement, your pay, your benefits, the expectations, the uniform, the hours etc, some things you only learn through doing the job i.e. the real hours needed to do the job, the real expectations.

Unfortunately there is many roles similiar to teachers just now, some easier, some tougher with expectations of : hard work alone will not be enough to succeed. Teachers have a voice which is nationally heard nearly every year, alot of jobs are not. Its quite simple though, the UK is in a dire place just now economically and for the time being if you dont like it then leave your job, find another one and be happy.No one is forcing you to do the job of your choice. Sometimes it is shit, but we have to pull up our waders and get through it

I personally think children have too much time off school, whether holidays, in service days etc. This surely must harm their education.

Seriously? You ever hear of the concept of 'less is more'?

No one is forcing you to do the job of your choice. Sometimes it is shit, but we have to pull up our waders and get through it

[i]and for the time being if you dont like it then leave your job, find another one and be happy[/i]

Hurrah.

so the issue of educating the next generation is left to those left behind, those who can't get another job, those who don't have the get up and go, the enthusiasm to do something else. Then, in 6-10-15 years time, when we are being run rings around by nations who actually value education, we can moan and whinge and blame the teachers again.

Brilliant work, do keep it up. Along with all the others who know the cost of everything and haven't got the basic intelligence to work out the value of anything. We are actually doomed as any kind of economic power, largely because of attitudes like this.

This may sound like a naive question, but if there's a common curriculum, why not a common lesson plan? From an outsiders perspective it seems a massive waste of time if every night thousands of teachers are creating individual lesson plans to teach the same stuff.

From an outsiders perspective it seems a massive waste of time if every night thousands of teachers are creating individual lesson plans to teach the same stuff.

Ian Munro every child and every class is different. I currently have three year 7 groups who are all very different with very different needs. I also teach 3 different courses to four different year 11 groups. Its all science but not all the same.

Roggidir or whatever your name is. Why should kids have to learn about work life?

I personally think children have too much time off school, whether holidays, in service days etc. This surely must harm their education.

My kids (aged 7 and 9) are knackered by the end of a term; [i]they[/i] need the time off. At work, my students (16-19) are also knackered by the end of a term; [i]they[/i] need the time off.

Plus, kids should be able to be kids. They're not production units, they're children.

This may sound like a naive question, but if there's a common curriculum, why not a common lesson plan? From an outsiders perspective it seems a massive waste of time if every night thousands of teachers are creating individual lesson plans to teach the same stuff.

There's a common curriculum (though, actually, that's going), but we don't have common children.

Even in my nice, high-achieving sixth form college where we select based on attainment at GCSE, the classes and year groups differ from year to year and from class to class. I use broadly the same materials each year with each class, but they're adjusted and modified to take account of individual needs. Schools do buy in resources and materials, but you can't just throw them at the class.

Personally, I think Gove is trying to degrade the profession to enough of a degree that we end up buying in approved resources from publishing companies and delivering those. There's no money to be made from professionals creating and sharing their own individualised resources.

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I just don't know how I am going to cope, it's 5 weeks till my next 2 week holiday. 😆