TJ - you can't afford an Edinburgh Executive Home - and nor can many of the other people who for socio-politico-ecconomic reasons are located around big cities, and if they could the demand would soar pushing the prices up until the couldn't!
As a retiree with time on their hands and an interest in such things... ...how much would train fares be if you applied the CalMac RET pricing?
That is not a cost of using public transport. thats a cost of where you are living. clutching at straws comes to mind
No, it's not a direct cost, it's not clutching at straws either, it's the cost of entry.
You can't use public transport if it's not where you are. Moving where it is costs money, lots of money.
It'd get a lot cheaper if everyone would actually *could* realistically use it, did so. Or cycle/walk instead of driving, clearing space for more cycle infrastructure and reduction of road capacity for those who don't currently have the option of realistic public transport.
Actually, no, that's a lie, it wouldn't get cheaper, it'd collapse completely under the load.
There are that many unnecessary car journeys.
I could poly 🙂 I wouldn't want to live in one tho.
RET pricing?
Edinburgh retains a comprehensive state owned public transport system I think the only UK city other than london that does.
Until recently all busses in Cardiff were run by Cardiff bus (and almost all still are) and that's owned by the council. The trains are run by Transport for Wales which is owned by the Welsh govt. I think the new South Wales Metro will be owned by TfW as well.
because Edinburgh retains a comprehensive state owned public transport system I think the only UK city other than london that does.
Blackpool, Ipswich, Nottingham, Reading, and Warrington all own/run their own buses and in the case of Nottingham, the tram network too. Two in Scotland — Dumfries and Galloway and Lothian in Edinburgh. Two in Wales — Newport and Cardiff (and Transport for Wales run the trains and provide a lot of oversight nationally).
Nearly all of Northern Ireland's buses are operated by Translink, a Stormont government-owned transport company.
Liverpool run their train network, MerseyRail (which actually extends up to Southport and out to Birkenhead).
And Edinburgh's tram "system" remains a comprehensive guide in how not to build, run and manage a tram line...
If I lived in the Edinburgh suburbs the costs and timings would be the same BTW – and I could have a cheaply built “executive home” or semi because Edinburgh retains a comprehensive state owned public transport system I think the only UK city other than london that does.
Blackpool
Cardiff
Halton
Ipswich
Newport
Nottingham
Rossendale
Swindon
Warrington
Reading
[ Dammit, beaten to it by a so solid 21 seconds whilst I was googling Sheffield as I was sure there were two bus companies one of which was council run but it was Stagecoach. ]
In NI Translink operate both trains and buses --
"Translink is the brand name of the Northern Ireland Transport Holding Company (NITHCo), a public corporation in Northern Ireland which provides the public transport in the region"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Translink_(Northern_Ireland)
Ok
Last time we had this sort of conversatio I was told its only edinburgh and london.
some of those are towns 🙂
And Edinburgh’s tram “system” remains a comprehensive guide in how not to build, run and manage a tram line…
I was going to make a point about at what point does a council owned bus company become a "comprehensive state owned public transport system", then I remembered it was Edinburgh we were comparing it to 🤣
some of those are towns 🙂
The "Reading Built up area" as defined in the census (and covered by the bus company) is almost* as big as Edinburgh 😉
*320k Vs 440k people.
Last time we had this sort of conversatio I was told its only edinburgh and london
Something else we can all agree is unequivocally true: everything you read on the internet is a lie.
It costs about £50 to fill my car up, which gives me around 340 miles, and by the time I’ve done the 200 mile round trip, I’ve got about 280 miles left.
Huh? 200+280=340?
They actually changed the rules when i was commuting to Uni back in the 90s. You have to either get on, or get off the train at the stop the ticket starts/finishes at.
Well that's just bloody ridiculous.
I have to drive to the station, if i lived close enough to walk or realistically cycle my mortgage would be (more than) twice what i’m paying now. (house price would essentially triple, and then some)
If i wanted to live near a realistic and viable bus route you’re looking at a doubling of house price.
It doesn't have to be that way. I have a bus route into town (and therefore to the central train station), what, 20m from my doorstep. My mortgage is ~£500/month for a 5-bedroom house.
folks often don’t choose where they live,
Why not?
There’s a tram stop 2 mins from where I live that goes to Manchester city centre, I’d be daft not to, but I can still park my car more cheaply in a city centre CP for a couple of hours than it costs to get there and back on the tram.
The key point there being "for a couple of hours."
I think the last time I went from the park & ride at Whitefield into the city centre it was £5.80 round trip on the Metro. For the price of two Northern pints I don't have to battle my way through the city and if I'm there longer than two hours I'm quids in over paying for parking in one of the scabbier areas of the Northern Quarter.
it was £5.80 round trip on the Metro. For the price of two Northern pints
thats one pint round here,
no one is really expressing anything other than how cripplingly expensive it is to use. You’re the outlier here
God, I hate it when my posts make me an outlier with TJ 😳 But my commute is possibly a fairly isolated sample of one.
Integrated public transport should be considered a public service rather than a business.
thats one pint round here,
Well, if you will live in a nominally posh city...
Integrated public transport should be considered a public service rather than a business.
I'm entirely agnostic about how it funds itself. Being idealistic about these sorts of things mostly doesn't survive first contact with reality which ever model; private or public. If someone is prepared to run services that are frequent, cheap, go place that people need/want to go, and can make a profit, then cool. I suspect the most successful would be a public/private mix.
It doesn’t have to be that way. I have a bus route into town (and therefore to the central train station), what, 20m from my doorstep.
Have to be? No.
There's a bus stop at the end of my garden path.
It gets about six buses a day iirc. None before 9.00, none back from town after 17.00.
The key point there being “for a couple of hours.”
This is Manchester we're taking about, I try to be in and out as fast as I can
This is Manchester we’re taking about, I try to be in and out as fast as I can
Very wise.
Although it does make public transport even more proportionally expensive; buying a £10 return on the train feels OK if you're spending all day in town but feels far worse if you're only there for 2hrs.
£10 return on the train feels OK if you’re spending all day in town
Nothing could ever feel OK about spending all day in Manchester
There’s a bus stop at the end of my garden path.
It gets about six buses a day iirc. None before 9.00, none back from town after 17.00.
Catch 22, innit. If more people used them, there would be more frequent services. If there were better services, more people would use them.
This is Manchester we’re taking about, I try to be in and out as fast as I can
Harsh. 😂
I don't particularly like cities. But as cities go, Manchester is alright.
Harsh. 😂
I don’t particularly like cities. But as cities go, Manchester is alright.
The main road out of Manchester leads to Hull for crying out loud. How bad does a place have to be that Hull is a good place to be heading?
Catch 22, innit. If more people used them, there would be more frequent services. If there were better services, more people would use them.
You say that. Back when I lived in town I used to get the 8.00 bus to the business park on occasion. They removed the service from the timetable because it was too busy so often had complaints about lack of seats or people not being allowed to board.
You say that. Back when I lived in town I used to get the 8.00 bus to the business park on occasion. They removed the service from the timetable because it was too busy so often had complaints about lack of seats or people not being allowed to board.
You get a related issue with private bus operators.
Manchester for example has over a dozen separate operators all running their own for-profit services. They're not under the control of the council or any authority, the bus company chooses where to run. So they're all after the same profitable corridors while ignoring the routes where they would get limited custom.
London (for example) can easily run buses to neglected out of the way places because the loss is offset by the profit from more mainline routes. That doesn't happen with private operators, they all need their services to turn a profit.
So you end up with 3 separate companies running services along one road, all chasing the same clientele, all with different tickets and pricing strategies while 2 streets away, there hasn't been a bus service for years.
Classic one was Company A running a bus at 15 past the hour so Company B, on the same route, changed their timing to 10 past the hour, to pick up all the people who'd arrived a few minutes early for the rival 15 past service.
Company A responded by going to 5 past the hour, Company B changed to on the hour.
The passengers didn't really care - a bus turned up, they got on it, it took them to town. What they did care about was the time moving by 5 minutes every few weeks as the rival companies vied for each other's business. The idea of running buses every half hour is the obvious solution but there wasn't enough patronage to support that which brings us back to the "it's not profitable" argument.
I mean, if you offered 2 buses an hour. you'd probably get more people using them but they're not willing to take the chance and build the patronage over a year or so, they want instant results.
The main road out of Manchester leads to Hull for crying out loud.
There are many roads in and out of Manchester, it's difficult to say what the 'main' one might be. My 'main road' out is the M66 which leads to Accrington; on balance I think I'd rather be in Hull.
How bad does a place have to be that Hull is a good place to be heading?
Maybe everyone is leaving Hull to go to Manchester?
Maybe everyone is leaving Hull to go to Manchester?
Having spent a few years in hull whilst a student I can categorically state very few of the locals can think of or find a way out.
I mean, if you offered 2 buses an hour. you’d probably get more people using them
would you wait 1/2 hour before using your car? The major obstacle for public transport use is frequency. I want to be able to decide to go and do something, pick up my house keys, wallet and coat, close the door, stroll to the bus stop and wait 30 secs to a minute before the bus I want shows up, and if I missed that one, another one will come along within 5 mins, otherwise, I'm using my car.
The major obstacle for public transport use is frequency. I
It's not.
It's the public.
They're awful.
... which is why it works so well in (say) London and so badly everywhere else.
The next bus is in 55 minutes? Sod it, It'll be quicker to walk.
RET pricing?
Road Equivalent Tariff - the concept used for ferry pricing (on Calmac by Scot Gov). I thought you'd be geeky enough to know how it works and translate it to a rail fare for me: https://www.transport.gov.scot/public-transport/ferries/road-equivalent-tariff/
It was quite hard to find, but I eventually found this (which may be a couple of years out of date): https://www.gov.scot/publications/foi-19-01137/ - £2 + £0.13 per mile - I think most people would say that was a good deal for a train fare? So there perhaps should be a question - why do we subsidise islanders to that level but not the rest of us?
why do we subsidise islanders to that level but not the rest of us?
Wasn't the whole calmac purchasing fiasco just a money skimming scam?
Without the subsidy out would be difficult to drum up enough demand to need another ferry then you'd never get to have a preferred supplier and so on.
Poly - we do subsidise trains and also car drivers - and car drivers get the biggest subsidy by far
would you wait 1/2 hour before using your car?
No, i'd plan around catching the bus.
Unfortunately, where i am i have a bus every two hours into town and every two hours to the next village, which has nothing of any note in it, except a bus station to catch an onwards bus.
And due to travel times etc and poor scheduling in the evening, if i want to go shopping i either have 1 hour or 3, there's nothing to keep me in town for 3 hours.
If i want to go drinking, the funky evening timetable means i either start drinking at 2030 and catch a bus home at 2110, or 0150. So yeah. It's not good. Worst thing is we used to have a 8 buses an hour, 4 going each way. They got cancelled.
My ‘main road’ out is the M66 which leads to Accrington; on balance I think I’d rather be in Hull.
Accrington or Hull (or stay in Manchester)? It's a close run thing, but i think I'd rather be dead...
It doesn’t have to be that way. I have a bus route into town (and therefore to the central train station), what, 20m from my doorstep. My mortgage is ~£500/month for a 5-bedroom house.
Unfortunately, for much of the country, and much of many countries, that's exactly the way it is. My place is about 200k, to get a similar sized place in the city limits is basically twice that (i've just checked). But that's still a 45 minute walk and miles from a regular bus service. Meh.
would you wait 1/2 hour before using your car? The major obstacle for public transport use is frequency. I want to be able to decide to go and do something, pick up my house keys, wallet and coat, close the door, stroll to the bus stop and wait 30 secs to a minute before the bus I want shows up, and if I missed that one, another one will come along within 5 mins, otherwise, I’m using my car.
You can train (pun intended) your way out of that mindset though.
Chill out, leave for work a few minutes earlier, take a book (or your laptop), look around at the scenery/architecture/people. There's the whole cliché of "mindfulness" and just enjoying what your're doing/where you are for the sake of it, but the reason it's become popular is it's the antithesis of the modern "must be everywhere and must be there 5 minutes ago" mentality, which ultimately is what drives people to consider cars to be the only option, leading to traffic jams, stress and road rage.
When I broke my arm (three times in 2 years) I had to get the bus to work, it's 90min+ by the time I'd walked to the bus stop a few minutes early, to do something I can cycle in 40min or drive in 20. The world didn't end.
Bit of an extreme example, not many people are going to do that long term, but in reality all that it incurred was I listened to an hour extra of podcasts in the morning and watched an hours less TV in the evening.
You can train (pun intended) your way out of that mindset though.
sort of, I can happily choose to cycle in, it just needs a bit of planning, But I don't need to plan to go into town, I can decide, shrug on my coat, walk to the tram, and one will along directly. That's is why it's popular and convenient. If I had to look up the time table, check the weather, all that faff, I wouldn't. Here's the other thing though, If I need to go to B&Q, there's no buses that go there, and the tram stop that does is still a 1/2 hour walk away, and is a 7 stop one-change tram ride.
It's really not my mindset that's the issue, its the fact that we live in a society that's modelled almost entirely on using a car.
Accrington or Hull (or stay in Manchester)? It’s a close run thing, but i think I’d rather be dead…
...
My place is about 200k, to get a similar sized place in the city limits is basically twice that (i’ve just checked).
So you pay your money and you make your choice.
Your 200k property is more than I paid for this place and I have all the amenities I could want (bar a bloody train station) on my doorstep. Granted, I'm sure there are more up-market areas than East Lancashire, but I'll take it over paying half a million quid for half the house I have just to be in the 'city limits' wherever that is.
It genuinely staggers me that people would choose to do that, I thought that one of the side-effects from covid / lockdown was that folk would realise they could live somewhere with trees for less money than a rabbit hutch in London.
folk would realise they could live somewhere with trees for less money than a rabbit hutch in London.
Though for many many folks, the ones who realised that were the ones who could afford the rabbit hutch and a place with trees.
Turns out that most people on lower wages needed to live within striking distance of work because they actually have to go to work to put things together, in boxes, on supermarket shelves etc.
They also tend to be the ones who absolutely can't afford a rabbit hutch anywhere near a train station or a decent bus service.
The major obstacle for public transport use is frequency
Yes and no, the main obstacle is reliability although the two are quite closely connected.
Suppose you have 5 buses/trains an hour scheduled - that's frequent enough to the point where you can just turn up at the stop and expect to get a service within 12 minutes at most. But if you cancel a random 2 every hour and only supply 3 services, it's still (relatively) frequent but the unreliability means people won't trust it.
This is the issue that Avanti, TransPennine etc ran into with their "cancellations at 1 minute to midnight the previous day" trick (so the cancellations don't show up on the following days statistics). Yes there are multiple trains between Manchester and Leeds but up to half of them will be cancelled with zero notice. The remaining services are still frequent but they're unreliable.
There are weighted calculations for "generalised cost" which, confusingly, is not just the actual cost in terms of money spent on the trip but includes factors like waiting time, transfer time and so on.
Waiting is perceived quite negatively - a minute spent waiting is generally given a weight of twice that of a minute spent on board. If you've had to wait for longer than advertised or expected due to cancellations, late running etc, that's given an even higher weight because the stress and uncertainty caused to the passenger is considerably higher.
It genuinely staggers me that people would choose to do that, I thought that one of the side-effects from covid / lockdown was that folk would realise they could live somewhere with trees for less money than a rabbit hutch in London.
Errr, i already live in the middle of a forest. In a fairly wealthy part of a (foreign) country, with loads of relatively well paying jobs locally.
That's why i have no urge to move.
FWIW, similar houses in similar areas in the UK go for a lot more than what i'm paying here. There's a place in the village i was looking at moving to when we eventually emigrated, size, layout and location is comparable to what i'm in here, £850k, that's one reason (of many) why i'm 1000 miles from the UK and not coming back!
that’s one reason (of many) why i’m 1000 miles from the UK and not coming back!
It's mainly the accent though isn't it?
Only in East Lancs 😉
Rail tickets in the UK should have just 3 variables:
Location
Distance
Time of day
See disagree with two of those. Distance should be the only thing which dictates the price.
See disagree with two of those. Distance should be the only thing which dictates the price
Then your demand management is up the creek and you end up with wildly oversubscribed peak services which takes you straight back to "this is unpleasant, I'd rather drive".
You can use the higher rates that business travellers in peak time are willing/able to pay to subsidise the less busy parts of the day.
When BA did some research into prices for Concorde, they found that most flyers (who were almost all business/celebrity types) greatly overestimated the cost of the air fare. They didn't know the actual cost cos they all had PAs etc booking it for them.
So BA simply raised the ticket price to what the travellers thought it was.
Actually became a reasonably profitable service.
Turns out that most people on lower wages needed to live within striking distance of work because they actually have to go to work to put things together, in boxes, on supermarket shelves etc.
Whilst I take your point, other work is available. If your career is putting things on supermarket shelves there are two here (Lidl and Tesco) which are quicker to walk to from my house than drive to.
It you have to work in The City then you can probably afford something nice as you say. But if not, why not go put things in boxes somewhere where the cost of living isn't stupid? That's not necessity, it's a lifestyle choice.
Only in East Lancs 😉
Hey!
Errr, i already live in the middle of a forest. In a fairly wealthy part of a (foreign) country, with loads of relatively well paying jobs locally.
That’s why i have no urge to move.
FWIW, similar houses in similar areas in the UK go for a lot more than what i’m paying here.
Sounds ace. What's stopping everyone else from doing similar?
Where's "here" out of interest?
