MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
Going to bite the bullet and get (probably) a Leaf, as my partner's commute is set to make it worthwhile. Really don't want to spend more than £10k, ideally a fair bit less, but from looking around it seems that's what you need to spend to get something not totally shagged. Looking at a 2014 model probably. £10k still seems like a daft amount of money for an 8 year old car.
Is there anything specific to look out for? I was planning to call ahead to get the seller/garage to fully charge it up, and then I guess there's a range indicator on the dash somewhere? Are there any other on-board battery health parameters to check?
Cheers,
There's a battery health indicator on the R side of the dash. If it's got less than 11 out of 12 bars i'd walk away and look at another. Other than that, drive it , test the brakes, does everything work? There's not much to go wrong.
The range estimator isn't a GOM (Guess o meter for nothing), so I'd largely ignore that.
Buying older EVs can be a bit fraught since they aren't as well thought out. Earlier old-model Leafs for example didn't have good battery cooling, so they aren't as well looked after and can degrade more quickly. That's not to say that they aren't ok, but they won't last as long as a current EV will.
At that price it's either Leaf or Zoe by the look of it, and of those I'd go for the latter although I don't know if the battery cooling situation was better. I think you can get one without a leased battery at that price.
My 2014 Leaf has a realistic range of 60 miles in the summer if driven normally. In the winter nearer 50. It’s done 60,000 miles and is on 11 bars but according to Leaf spy it’s about to lose another one any day now.
I bought it in 2016 with 4k on the clock from a Nissan main dealer for 11k not sure I would be spending 10k on it now….
You may have seen it already, but there's some videos on autotrader about this...
Would you not be better with a lease on a new Leaf?
£1500 downpayment and £260 a month. Over 4 years - the lease is £14k including servicing. Your old car would be £10k + £200 MOT, £600 Tyres and £800 servicing. So around £11.5k + and parts/repairs for brakes, etc.
Not much in it for a new car vs an old one. This all assumes that the leaf is worthless at 4 years, which it won't be, but then...it might be.
The main consideration to be aware of when buying an early leaf is… probably don’t. That could be a bit of a simplification but you need to be aware of the issue:
As mentioned already, that era of leaf has a known issue with battery cooling. Particularly pronounced when the car has been fast charged frequently. These cars tend to have quite degraded capacity. If you can live with that great.
The Zoe of the same era does not have this issue. My 16 plate 22kwh still delivers 90+ miles in summer.
There is a way to get a battery health report in the Zoe via the odb port - a cheap tool is available on eBay.
I’m not up to speed on latest used values, perhaps a lease as mentioned above is simpler?
Thanks for the replies. I am not getting a lease car - no way, absolutely not. I find it mad how many people are swanning about in cars costing (much) more than their annual salary - feels like a bubble which has to burst at some point.
We went with a lease when we looked at this because the difference in cost was not that great, but the difference in tech was huge. Our new one has a reliable 180 mile range, a heat pump for efficient winter heating, and I suspect a liquid cooled battery but I'm not quite sure. In any case the condition of the battery is of less interest to me since it's a lease. That said, leases are nowhere near as cheap now as when I got mine.
feels like a bubble which has to burst at some point.
Not really, the lease market feeds the used car market. And with EVs, demand for used will be high so lease prices will stay sensible.
In general leasing is a bad idea unless you really want a brand new car all the time and I would never do that; however the case of EVs is somewhat different. At this point in time well sorted EVs are quite new and still very expensive to buy, and the lease prices are much cheaper than the purchase price, and the lease company is taking the risk on resale. There is no way I would have an EV if it weren't on a lease. That said, it fit our situation at the time and worked well because we knew we'd likely end up down to one car after it. I probably won't lease another, although if I still need a second car at the end of the lease period I would be very tempted to buy my lease car or a similar one.
The fact you don't end up with an asset at the end of the lease a bit rubbish, but of course older used EVs aren't that much of an asset now depending on what you want.
A key factor for us was the hugely increased range of a new lease EV vs a used purchase would allow us to do many more trips in it rather than the diesel, and therefore save a lot of cash on fuel.
All that said, the leases are now about 50% more than when I got mine, which also skews the calculation.
I understand your attitude to a lease, but if you remove the emotional (and aspirational) aspect of things and view it purely on economics. It's often a lot closer than you might imagine and removes the uncertainty of future value and unexpected repairs. Lets face it, buying outright, you're spending good money on a depreciating asset which costs more money to run. It runs counter to financial sense, but we all do it as we need transport and that costs money.
Your gonna have to do some research then, I gather you’re just starting and this is a good way to start.
You could take some of the heat off by going to a reputable used EV specialist.
I just looked up the place I used and they’ve unfortunately shut down. Shame because they were very useful, they provided the battery health reports for all the cars on their forecourt. Obviously not impartial advice but they understood what they were selling.
Used EV prices are utterly bonkers now. There's a used Ioniq EV Premium SE, one year old, with 6k miles which is identical to mine in age, mileage and spec, and it's the same price as mine was listed as having cost new, but mine had a £3k grant. And incredibly, some of these used cars are actually advertised within a few hundred quid of current new list price!
Not many moving parts. Just take it from 0-60 from a standing start and full tank of electricity and any issues will become obvious.
This will test the battery's capability to deliver high current, the inverter, and the motor at their maximum load. If the battery falls to zero after this you also know that there's a potential issue there.
Robert Llewelyn of Fully Charged had his old Leaf re-batteried and was very happy with it afterward.
I am not getting a lease car – no way, absolutely not. I find it mad how many people are swanning about in cars costing (much) more than their annual salary – feels like a bubble which has to burst at some point.
you are going to lose your mind when you find out about people renting houses that cost 10 or more times their salary.
I don't see how it is a bubble that can burst. You agree an amount to pay per month for a fixed term.
All the risk and capital (which seems to be two things you are worried about from your OP) is on the lease company. You may pay a fraction more for that priviledge.
Robert Llewelyn of Fully Charged had his old Leaf re-batteried and was very happy with it afterward.
And I bet that cost him a small fortune ?!
Most manufacturers dont warranty batteries past 8 years. Id just get ICE car or look at lease. There is absolutely nothing wrong with leasing. Do people just not get it or something?
I would only buy second hand if I have the cash in the bank or the gap between finance is big
£1500 downpayment and £260 a month. Over 4 years – the lease is £14k including servicing. Your old car would be £10k + £200 MOT, £600 Tyres and £800 servicing. So around £11.5k + and parts/repairs for brakes, etc.
Am I missing something or will a 12 year old Leaf not still have some resale value? Say £5k. Which makes the 4 year cost of a used Leaf less than half the lease of a new one.
On the other hand if it's only to drive a relatively short commute, then used might well make sense...
But, in five years when 160+mile cars are the low end, a by now 50 mile car with an ageing battery might not be worth much at all.
Am I missing something or will a 12 year old Leaf not still have some resale value? Say £5k.
a very fair question. EV cars wont follow the same depriciation curve that we all know from ICE cars.
Its too early days at the moment but in say 10 years time I wonder what the cheapest functioning, MOTed EV will cost you. No more £250 Corsas for 17 year olds I fear.
Even completely shagged batteries from an EV's point of view will have a sizable scrap value to be repurposed into batteries for other purposes.
No more £250 Corsas for 17 year olds I fear.
They'll exist but will have very low range. Road tripping in your battered old car won't be so easy!
Fully charged recell was 8.5k
Gave it 150% range
Was worth doing tbh if you got an old cheap leaf from down south.
Downsides are they are still salvage units . Time till a useful unit for your vehicle becomes available
You only need about 1,800 18650s for a 22kWh battery, get soldering!
From looking at (Renault "approved") Used Zoe prices again lately I do note a good £5k+ jump in up front cost if you don't want a leased battery, but then I start to wonder if leasing the battery is perhaps a good thing, the up front cost of the car is lower, obviously the battery lease is another ongoing agreement/cost but it's not crazy money (depending on model and mileage it should cost between £700 and £1300 a year).
But battery leasing at least partly addresses the major recurring issue with these older EVs, battery degradation. Importantly they'll replace/maintain the battery under the conditions of the lease if it's not holding juice won't they?
In theory an 8-10 year old Leaf or Zoe should be a pretty much mechanically sound car, apart from the (most likely) progressively shagged out old battery, and the cost of a new battery appears to be about the same as the whole car again, an ~8 year old Zoe can be had for around £8k with a leased battery, Renault apparently ask about the same again for an owned battery, which will of course start degrading immediately once fitted. you own it, great, but it's getting worse every day.
Renault will happily sell you the same vintage of (Approved used) Zoe with a battery included (which you don't necessarily know the provenance/history of) for ~£14-15k it seems, that difference in upfront cost is equivalent to several years worth of battery leasing...
I think I'd rather own the car and have options for leasing the battery (or maybe buying a new one in years to come if they become more affordable/reliable) than be stuck with owning a "Whole car" but have to either put up with dwindling range, or paying out double the money for a new battery in the next couple of years.
The only question is just how long can a Zoe (or any other EV) last if the battery is periodically maintained/replaced under lease? 20+ years?
I start to wonder if leasing the battery is perhaps a good thing
It could well be a good way of making a more viable long term prospect from these cars since the cost of the lease could be offset with fuel gains and/or savings against the lease/credit cost of something better, but weren't Renault trying to get rid of these leases?
The only question is just how long can a Zoe (or any other EV) last if the battery is periodically maintained/replaced under lease? 20+ years?
This probably belongs on the other thread, but I've been wondering this. There's a risk of failure of stuff like the inverter or charger etc, the usual driveshafts, shocks, springs and whatnot, but they are easy to fix. I think the killer would be that the interior would wear out and the random equipment that will eventually fail - the central locking, airbag warning lights, stereo, and eventually stuff like steering column switches and door handles etc. But probably just wear and tear on the interior and seat fabric and the like.
TBH, in durability testing we've found stuff tends to last longer in BEVs as things like the mechanical loading from vibration is far lower (no engine buzzing away under the bonnet, plus it's relatively easier to isolate an electric motor in the first place), plus the thermal cycling is less aggressive (for under bonnet and stuff close to the exhaust at least), less hot corrosive shit being splattered all over the bottom of the car, baking salty road grime onto the underside of the car isn't healthy in any measure. The hottest bit of an electric car is generally well under 100 degrees, a fuel car might hit 6/700 surface temp on the DPF/Cat and over 200 on most of the rest of the pipe going back from there. That heat has to go somewhere. And you've got a couple of hundred kilos of hot stuff. Electric motors cool down relatively quickly, and batteries don't get that hot (even though they are very heavy!)
The only flip side, it doesn't really get hot enough to dry stuff out.
And the loss of the heavy rattly noisy thing in the front makes the interior squeaks and rattles far more noticeable.
Did anyone mention rust.
The Obvious comparison for "typical mechanical wear and tear" would be a Clio I suppose (?), Those should last a couple of decades without too much fuss right...
TBH, in durability testing we’ve found stuff tends to last longer in BEVs as things like the mechanical loading from vibration is far lower (no engine buzzing away under the bonnet, plus it’s relatively easier to isolate an electric motor in the first place)
Ah yes good point.
Did anyone mention rust.
Seems to be less of a problem these days. Oh wait, you like Land Rovers don't you? 😆
irc
Am I missing something or will a 12 year old Leaf not still have some resale value? Say £5k. Which makes the 4 year cost of a used Leaf less than half the lease of a new one.
Apart from reading the rest of my post - no, I suppose not.
My mate is still running around in a Peugeot 106 EV however old they are. He has replaced the original battery pack with a 23kWh lithium pack. He's something of an expert in industrial electronics and fitted lots of little controllers to groups of batteries. He uses the original charger. His next mod it to fit a Type 2 socket.
Edit: It's 1995ish
Seems to be less of a problem these days. Oh wait, you like Land Rovers don’t you? 😆
Not where I live. Doesn't seem to care what you drive. Body work often looks ok but underneath they are rotten as a peach.
molgrips
Did anyone mention rust.
Seems to be less of a problem these days
It does depend where you live and what you drive. A friend who lives in Devon had to have the entire front subframe of his 2009 estate car replaced in 2016. It was rotten.
What car was that, because I live by the sea in Norway and it's not really a big problem unless you have a penchant for French cars or Land Rovers. Or German luxury cars...
I do however own a Leaf similar to what the OP is considering. It's still on 11 bars, and whether the range is adequate depends on what you plan on doing every day, but if you daily commute is only 40 or 50miles all in you can be good, and just charge at home. I've got 135000 kms on mine.
It doesn't have rust, and is cheap as chips to run, and doesn't break down like an ICE engine does. I don't live in a hot country so overheating, the way to really trash batteries isn't a big deal. The UK isn't hot wither in this context.
I think if the range isn't a problem it's a super little commuter car, and better than a lot of ICE alternatives. If I could get a bigger battery retrofitted locally I would - it might cost some 1000's of pounds, but there's nothing wrong really with the rest of the car.
I wouldn't pay 10K for it tho' locally they're a bit cheaper than that, and used cars have always been pricey in Norway compared to the UK
Did anyone mention rust.
Yes, actually. It's what hot corrosive shit makes happen faster. And thermal cycling tends to kill paint coatings as well. So in theory (and in testing) it's better.
But, yes, of course they'll go rusty. Eventually.
Hot corrosive shit. Next to the sills - the inner arches - the rear spring mounts and seatbelt mounts.
Not limited to french /German and land rovers either. Mazda /ford /nissan/fiat /Toyota/vauxhall are all doing a fairly good job of exhibiting it in North East Scotland between 10 and 15 years old.
Volvo and saabs body work seems pretty good at lasting - always surprised at the number of saabs I still see on the road.
The Zoé has a 12-year anti-corrosion garantie IIRC. French cars are made out of galvanised steel. The oldest are 10 now and I've yet to see a rust on one.
Aren't most galvanised anyway? I dropped a blob of sealant on the boot of the Passat and didn't notice - it peeled away a small patch of paint leaving raw un-marked metal. It didn't go rusty at all.
AIUI galvanisation can be overcome given corrosive enough conditions.
I looked at cheap bottom end Leafs pre Covid and certainly before the recent fuel price hikes. You could get them for just over £4k. Mechanically they seem good with only upper strut mounts being an issue from water ingress.
It was better to find one without the optional rapid charger due to the thermal degradation issues mentioned above.
A missing satnav disc was also something to look out for as well.
The main issue was finding one local as the reduced range meant getting it home after purchase could be an issue.
In the current climate I wouldn't bother - prices for older leafs are up and they don't make sense when you get Toyota Aygo's or their equivalents far cheaper.
they don’t make sense when you get Toyota Aygo’s or their equivalents far cheaper.
Prices on then are flying up too. I looked at EVs and took my bet on an Aygo/c1/108 - same vehicle. 65mpg , no tax and 120 quid to insure. But seeing c1s sell for 2grand at 80-100k miles on an 06 plate. It's mental. I turned one down with 60k at 500 quid 8 years ago !
Get a car 1/4 the age 1/8th the miles and considerably better speced than a decent looking leaf. Plenty gen 1s kicking about with utterly dreadful ranges (35miles) ...... Anything you would have wanted was holding its money.
Could you find me a better specced car 1/4 the age with 1/8 of the miles of this 25000 mile £12500 1916 30kWh Leaf that will also cost less to own and run over say 30000 miles and three years?
Did you link to the right car ? Doesn't seem much if a bargain. Seems to be about 45000 miles of fuel more than an equivalently aged and milaged petrol Aygoesque vehicle.
Hell could buy a new one with 0 miles and 0 years old for that kind of money not that I would condone that mind you . News a great way to dispose of money
It's just the worst possible time to buy a 'cheap' EV. Hydrocarbon fuel prices are pushing people to EV but there isn't the maturity of market like there is for ICE stuff.
The KIA soul is a good alternative to the Leaf but prices are up a few £k from last year.
I'd buy older diesel for a few years until things settle down - anything with a VW PD, PSA group 2.0Hdi or a Yaris hybrid or Aygo depending on ULEZ
I've linked the right car but you haven't played the game and linked an ICE 1/4 of the age, 1/8th of the mileage and better specced at the same price, Trailrat.
Once again you're trying to put people off looking at EVs by dissing them with no facts to back up your dissing. So I'm asking you to back up your claims.
You haven't read my original post and have cherry picked parts of it to make your point.
Make sure the PTC heater is still working. They are very expensive to get someone else to fix and a pig of a job to do yourself. This is a purely electric heater to preheat the cabin before the heat pump takes over. You can see on the power meter if it's working as it should draw 4-5 kw with the heater on from cold.
A leaf and an Argo are not similar vehicles. So you’re not even starting from a fair comparison. An Auris would be a fair size comparison and a quick search shows that a 2016 Auris with less than 30000miles is about £11k in base spec…
Make sure you check that the clutch works.
Once again you’re trying to put people off looking at EVs by dissing them with no facts to back up your dissing.
Well, I'm very pro-EV but I still think old Leafs may not be that good of a deal. I would say only get one if you have a short commute and you can afford to care about your carbon footprint.
A leaf and an Argo are not similar vehicles. So you’re not even starting from a fair comparison.
Isn't that because electric cars are often necessarily bigger to fit the battery in? If you don't *need* a bigger car, and the main reason for an electric car is cheaper running costs, small 1 litre cars might be cheaper.
We bought an 2009 IQ about 6 years ago. It's been incredibly cheap to run. Cost 2.5k. It only weighs 800kg so there's just very little wear on everything. Tyres last agggess for instance, and they only cost 40 quid. All it's needed are oil changes, brakes and tyres.
Unfortunately now it's getting on a bit. 3rd gear syncro gone, clutch really needs doing. Tempted to get it fixed anyway what with 2nd hand prices.
It’s been incredibly cheap to run.
Unfortunately now it’s getting on a bit. 3rd gear syncro gone, clutch really needs doing.
Cheap because you've not actually maintained it?
Isn’t that because electric cars are often necessarily bigger to fit the battery in? If you don’t *need* a bigger car,
No. An EUp is about the same size as an Argo. It’s electric. What I’m saying is that a family hatch will be a different market to a super mini. So compare an equivalent car.
Electric cars aren’t bigger unless designed that way. Look at the Model 3.
If you don’t *need* a bigger car,
Is the key part of your quote there.
Op posted looking at an ev for his wife to commute to work. No mention of any other use.
Easy to see why they defaulted to a leaf because the gwizz was shit and the e-up is still mega bucks if you can find one. The leafs the original usable EV.
Doesn't make it current good value for a single occupancy commuter due to the inflated prices though - I'd have bought one if it did. I wanted to buy an EV I really did but the maths is still well out of whack even when the fuel cost is minimal in the ev.
Fwiw you can get a family of three and their gear in a 5 door Aygo without any tears. I wouldn't like to go on a driving holiday to the south of France in one mind.... But then I wouldn't want to do that in a leaf either.