Let me state for the record - I am not religious, I have no faith, at all.
My question: why does the Muslim faith conflate the content of the Quran with the physical 'presence' of a single copy?
I don't THINK Christians would get so upset if you set fire to a copy of The Bible but Muslims take setting fire to a copy of The Quran as an act of religious hatred. Surely the copy that you burn is just that - a copy.
Burning it doesn't destroy the content (it's unlikely to be the very last copy) but just that copy.
Yet across the Muslim world Governments are summoning Ambassadors and expelling Senior Diplomats to demonstrate their anger because some ne'er do-well has set fire to a book.
I imagine if you were to burn a bible in the bible belt you may well get shot....
Its disrespectful, provoking and ultimately completely and utterly unnecessary
There are nut jobs and nasty people in all religions just waiting for an excuse to justify violence.
Free speech shouldn't override common sense and decency
In summary - bloody stupid idea
<p style="text-align: right;">Hobnobs?</p>
Muslims take setting fire to a copy of The Quran as an act of religious hatred.
If you were caught placing a pig's head on a Jewish grave you would likely be charged with a hate crime.
Muslims have as much right to be protected from hate crimes as anyone else. In my opinion.
Bible burning does bring the same reaction to a sector of Christianity, quite a few "christian" countries have blasphemy laws. See also the outrage flag burning brings out in "patriots".
IMO it is mainly just dead cat politics to distract from real problems.
However those who do burn the quaran are also playing the same game, it is about creating symbolic division and othering a group in society rather than drawing attention to the genuine problems.
Burning it doesn’t destroy the content
For Muslims, the Quran is the literal word of God, so that's what you're burning. It hasn't changed since 600AD (unlike the Bible) and is handed down generation to generation, since they believe that it was dictated to Mohammed by God, it's pretty offensive then to desecrate it.
I'm no fan of religion but burning Qurans/bibles is obviously going to be offensive and cause a reaction. And I can guess the kind of folk who do it...
Kind of like walking into a Rangers pub in Celtic kit and insulting them. Only going to go one way.
If someone was to travel to Utter Pradesh right now and burn a copy of the Hindu Vedas + kill a cow openly on the street you'd see yourself lynched. Different faith but same response.
Because to do so is blatant breach of Rule #1
I guess it's more a symbolic thing..
If someone burns a book or a flag or whatever, it dosen't matter.
I guess in history, the destruction of records was a thing, but good luck with that, we now have SSDs and cloud backups.
Ahh crap, I've just noticed the fallacy in that.
Let's go back to cave painting.
Kind of like walking into a Rangers pub in Celtic kit and insulting them. Only going to go one way.
Lolz
look at the reaction to O'Conner tearing up a picture of the pope or US reaction to flag burning
It really doesn't matter if the reaction to burning someones holy book is absurd. You know the reaction it will get and thats why these folk are doing it.
Free speech obviously has limits.
For Muslims, the Quran is the literal word of God, so that’s what you’re burning.
It's just fantasy though... I'd hapily burn a Quran and a Bible to get my BBQ going if it came to it.. I'd even place a union flag, and a wodden crucificx.
And a manchester united football shirt.
It’s just fantasy though… I’d happily burn a Quran and a Bible to get my BBQ going if it came to it..
would you let said interested parties know beforehand and where would you move to - remember Salman Rushdie and that was way milder than burning.
would you let said interested parties know beforehand and where would you move to – remember Salman Rushdie and that was way milder than burning.
I wouldn't make a show of it, if I need kindling, Fuel is fuel.
Totems innit? They come in all shapes, sizes, forms and guises and we attach a huge amount of meaning from them. Make sense the strong emotional reaction they draw when mistreated.
Some spanker US soldiers burned a bin bag full of Qur'an's (given to detainees) in 2012 and a shit storm ensued.
Rule one innit. But some people enjoy being dicks.
The motivation isn't genuine protest, it's simply to get a reaction so they can point at that and act the victim. And often it isn't even that, but something far murkier.
Even if they're not shilling for someone else's agenda, doing it from the relative safety of Stockholm is the equivalent of the 'Bus ****ers' scene in Inbetweeners. They're expecting it to be consequence-free.
Its not the act that is the issue, its the reaction that will enevitably follow caused by the burning. The religous over reacting isnt acceptable either but rule no one applies as the main reason for burning the book of stories is to deliberately provoke an unacceptable response.
Take the religious icon bit out of it and its about disrespecting a fellow human being
Doesnt matter if I believe in sacred worms, if you burn my book about sacred worms you clearly do not respect me. At least have a conversation with me about sacred worms, and try and understand my view on sacred worms.
But the world unfortunately doesn't appear to be built around respect for other people. (especially sacred worms)
Its disrespectful, provoking and ultimately completely and utterly unnecessary
Agree very strongly with the with the first two, not with the last.
Free speech shouldn’t override common sense and decency
The keepers of the keys of orthodoxy repressed free speech for the best part of 2000 years, subjugating a continent, ensuring women were kept in their place (and responsible for the despicable concept of 'original sin') and enforcing their will through the use of genuine horrors against people who exercised speech that very clearly wasn't free.
So if you burn a bible, or a Quran, you're exercising your freedom of expression to belittle the belief systems that these disgusting texts represent. Or maybe you're just being a provocative dick. Whatever the reason - it doesn't matter - because freedoms that aren't exercised become taboos again. And if criticising and ridiculing religion (specifically ridicule, because it's the most effective form of criticism) becomes taboo then we could very easily go backwards towards the horrors of the past. And, frankly, the horrors of the present and the continued atrocities which these pre-medieval religious doctines prove such fertile ground for fermenting.
So, should you so desire, burn your book - be it Quran or Bible - and if a religious person's response to that is to try to actually kill you (or stab your eyes out) after you do that - which doesn't harm them but simply says "I don't like what you believe" - then that shows what they are, more than what you are.
At least have a conversation with me about sacred worms, and try and understand my view on sacred worms.
You're entitled to your views, you have no right to expect others to respect them when they are clearly wrong and objectionable. That way lies anti vaxxers and 5G conspiracies.
The point of the action here is simply to elicit an 'unreasonably angry' response, in order to gather more support for a wider anti-Muslim agenda. Or some other nefarious purpose, as highlighted above.
It's being dressed up as simple freedom of expression, or an attack on the concept of religion, when the actual motivation is about fostering division, discrimination and the othering of a wider community that is uninvolved in the angry response. It is a recruitment tool for hate.
The point of the action here is simply to elicit an ‘unreasonably angry’ response, in order to gather more support for a wider anti-Muslim agenda. Or some other nefarious purpose, as highlighted above.
It's an easy win if you're that way inclined.
Unless you've been living under a rock for the past 100 years, you know exactly what's going to happen if you burn that book.
It's a display of shithousery that is underlined and in bold.
It’s just fantasy though
Its just fantasy to you (and me). That does not mean other people do not believe it. Some people believe in heaven, I don't but I'm not going to be a dick about it. I guess the difference is between something physical like a city (Jerusalem) or book (Quran) and a belief. You can do physical things to objects like burn them, you can't to beliefs.
To make it easy for you - here's a copy of the video that gets right to the religious point.
You’re entitled to your views, you have no right to expect others to respect them when they are clearly wrong and objectionable. That way lies anti vaxxers and 5G conspiracies.
Maybe my wording is incorrect. It is wrong to say 'I am right, they are wrong, burn the book' without having a conversation to try and understand their position and reach a understanding/compromise on both sides. Burning the book doesnt help the situation, just states you have no wish to understand or try to engage
That is not to say beliefs should not be challenge and questioned. I'm prepared to accept some people have lets call it 'faith'. I don't and I want to be able to freely challenge them and sometimes mock them in the same way they can challenge and mock me for my lack of faith.
However what really gets me is when people feel the need to kill and harm others because they don't share the same faith. Even more confusing for me is a number of these groups actually have the same faith with slight variations. I try to understand but it gets to the point where I think people just want to argue (bit like on here!)
🙂
It is a recruitment tool for hate
Islam is a recruitment tool for hate. Along with the other religions, but right now it's the best funded.
Anyone going to interact with Hitchins? Or are they more interested in repeating their own opinion to themselves?
Yes, its' a dick move to burn a book. But it's the right dick move.
Maybe I need to pitch it more Team America World Police? I don't agree with it 100% (watch Hitchens for intelligence) - but you know, it's funny at least.
Islam is a recruitment tool for hate. Along with the other religions, but right now it’s the best funded.
Are you making the case that the best, most proactive, way to combat that is by deliberately antagonising people?
Are you making the case that the best, most proactive, way to combat that is by deliberately antagonising people?
No, I explicitly said the best, most proactive way to combat that is by ridiculing people. But it's certainly part of the toolbox.
Did you watch Hitchens?
Want to articulate any objections to what he said? He's said everything I think about it, better than I can. If you really want to engage with the argument, he's probably the best starting point I can think of.
Christopher Hitchens presents some pretty compelling arguments against organised religion. And no-one should receive death threats for making them.
Sadly, these kind of arguments are often used as the acceptable face of far more unsavoury agendas. Sure, islamophobia is not literally an ethnic thing, but, in the real world, and certainly where I live, it is aimed exclusively at specific south Asian communities, and many of those who respond to islamophobic rallying calls are not following the nuances of Oxford Union debates or carefully considering distinctions between race and religion.
We need to separate the real-world motives of some of those who burn the Qu'ran, or those who weaponise the inevitable reaction.
Sadly, these kind of arguments are often used as the acceptable face of far more unsavoury agendas
And these kind of arguments are used as justification to control speech, enact laws, and bring about exactly the type of world that Hitchens is raging against.
They're weak, and they're always founded on "other people are bad and can 'abuse' free speech, mmkay - so we need to control it".
Get. In. The. Ground.
most proactive way to combat that is by ridiculing people.
I used to think like that; then my views matured a bit.
I think you'll find the most proactive way to make yourself feel better (even a bit superior) is by ridiculing people. But no one in history changed their heart held beliefs (normally based on a generational family connection, so lots of emotional entanglement) because they got ridiculed. That normally happens when they are listened to in a non judgy way and get to observe a life being well lived by someone they respect with a different perspective, modelling that a good life without religion is possible. The ridiculer just helps validate for them that everyone outside their 'gang' are knobs.
Get. In. The. Ground
This seems like a disproportionately angry response to a perfectly civilised discussion. You OK?
Tony Blair V's Christopher Hitchens..
It's an old one but a good one.
Get. In. The. Ground.
Enforce your view against the perils of religious constraint by acting in precisely the same way that the ultra religious would. Seems legit.
In the meantime the rest of us will get on with our neighbours by not breaking rule#1
Some folk like to offend, and some folk like to be offended.
Rasmus Paludan did a book burning in the town I live in. I actually drove past while they were doing it.
It was only here because his permit for Göteborg was withdrawn at the last minute. Hundreds of people on both sides gathering etc etc.
Because they didn't have enough time to advertise or gather their fans, no one showed up. It was Rasmus, half a dozen lackeys/security, 20-30 locals (of all colours/faiths/political alignments), mostly just heckling and jeering. About half a dozen police and a reporter from the local paper.
That was it, done in 20 minutes.
Complete damp squib. Barely even made the national news. There was more coverage of the withdrawn permit being an infringement of the right to free speech than there was of the "protest" in town.
Though, as is the norm, I'm pretty sure that certain sections of the press reported it as a mass riot where the savages attacked the honest upstanding defender of our rights to break rule 1.
It happens. A lot.
Some folk like to offend, and some folk like to be offended.
/end thread
Did you watch Hitchens
Watching vids while at work is tricky, so no.
I'm not in favour of religion in general, but equally;
- I don't believe ridiculing people is a good way to get them to rethink what they do, it will entrench them if anything
- I don't believe that burning a symbol that someone treasures is a form of ridicule
- I also don't believe that people upset at the burning of a symbol should react in the way that the often do, but deliberately provoking that reaction doesn't seem the best way to prevent it
To me its no different to burning any other story book, be it the bible, Lord of the Ring or Harry Potter.
To me its no different to burning any other story book, be it the bible, Lord of the Ring or Harry Potter.
Really? You know here in the heathen STW world you're amongst friends - you don't need to prove your atheist leanings. But really don't see any difference between burning Potter and the Quran?
How often do you think you might feel the urge for burn a book about the lightning foreheaded little dude? I mean, recycling centres are available......
I think we both appreciate that burning books in public places is about getting a rise out of others, rather than clearing the shelves. Any Tolkien and Rowling fans don't get quite so wound up so it does not happen too often.
I'm not a religious person but respect people who are, but I do struggle to comprehend the reverence religions have to a book, buildings or icons etc.
I had this conversation with a Muslim colleague about this, our discussion revolved around iconology and how a loosely copied and modified book holds such reverence. Beliefs in my mind are in you heart and mind, if that's the case why get so upset with a burning of a book that will have almost certainly have been misinterpreted, miss translated and mass printed. I put it too him that way and he agreed with me, to a certain extent!
It's an issue that many people have a shit life and need something to believe in, which opens them up radicalisation. Doesn't matter what you believe in, someone will be manipulating it somehow.
if that’s the case why get so upset with a burning of a book
Can we also remind ourselves that as well as taking offense at books being burned, the sorts of folks who want to burn books are often 1. v keen on burning other books, not always religious, that wait for it...offend them and 2. have always turned out to be tolerant, free thinking and welcoming themselves. [/sarcasm]
