So still no actual pro Brexit argument from mooman?
This is why the populists are winning..
Claiming to know why people voted a certain way is as daft using it to add weight to your own opinion.
Indeed. Given only a third of the population eligible to vote actually voted to leave, good luck trying to find a consensus that's proportionate enough - and reasonable enough - to matter.
The truth is, a single politically motivated "democratic" event has shafted the UK irreparably and focused precious few resources on a cause without need.
And if anyone is trying to find solace or closure for this non-sensical farce on this forum, well, it ain't going to happen. Embrace the madness to come!
@molgrips, I don't think it is "nonsense" - the idea that Britain is "very much a European country at the heart of Europe" sounds more like nonsense to me.
I mentioned both the reformation and the empire, which taken together meant Britain's historical development took place somewhat independently of Europe. Indeed there are protestant nations in Europe (but not many in the EU), whilst Germany was never reformed to the extent of Britain - around half of Germans are Catholic.
If the reformation hadn't happened then I'd argue Britain would have remained a European country, as it had been beforehand. But since the reformation and the empire, it established links with the rest of the world in a way unmatched by any other country. You mention how English was originally a Germanic language, well during the Empire, English then became a new language for millions of others in other countries, so these things mutate over time and after a while a new structure is developed.
As a result of this history, it is my understanding that Britain is better understood as a Commonwealth country, not a European one. Only a small number of British people would consider themselves European.
The fact he’s now having to look into Italian residency, changing his driving license and arranging health care he’s not so keen.
Well l live in mainland Europe (EU) and had to gain residence , change my licence ( it has the wrong address) and pay €80 per month healthcare anyway.
The free movement does what it says on the tin. To live and work is something different altogether. The fact that a Ukranian friend of mine managed to gain residency in exactly the same timeframe as me , an EU citizen says it all really.
Only a small number of British people would consider themselves European.
Percentage?
Percentage?
Which, if any, of the following words would you use to describe yourself?
British 58%
English 49%
European 15%
Scottish 7%
Regional term (eg northerner, southerner, Highlander) 7%
City/county specific term (eg Londoner, Yorkshireman, Glaswegian, Geordie, Mancunian, Scouser) 7%
Irish/Northern Irish 4%
Welsh 4%
Local area/town-specific term 3%
Taken from the Guardian ( yes really!)
Hey @andypaul, whereabouts in Europe are you, and how easy was it to get your job out of interest.
I used to go out with an Italian and spent a lot of time there, but it was very unlikely I'd ever be able to secure a job. Most jobs in Italy go to sons/family/family friends, but I only have experience of Italy and appreciate it could be more open in other countries.
, it is my understanding that Britain is better understood as a Commonwealth country, not a European one. Only a small number of British people would consider themselves European.
Well that's just silly, what % of Brits identify as citizens of the commonwealth ?
The idea of the commonwealth in the UK is just a legacy of empire, Brits desperately trying to cling on to the idea of exceptionalism
It's made even more laughable by your average ukipers attitude towards former countries of the empire, while the EU has been a convenient bogeyman for the rw press & populist politicians. They'll dislike Indians, Nigerians etc even more.
There's a huge difference between you and your Ukranian friend, Andypaul. You are there as a right for as long as you wish, and he is there for as long as the country decides. As long as you abide by the very low conditions for remaining in a country you can stay, in simple terms as long as you can sustain yourself on the same terms as a local.
Britain is the best example of this. Workers from the EU just have to have to show they can support themselves beyond 3 months residency, workers from elsewhere have to earn:
You’ll usually need to be paid at least £30,000 per year or the ‘appropriate rate’ for the job you’re offered - whichever is higher
This is why some EU workers are leaving, they realise that in the event of no deal they'll no longer comply with requirements and can be deported on whim. That and being disliked, or worse, insulted and intimidated.
You say you have "residency". That's not "nationality" and in the event of no deal your host country can do just what it likes with you, just like your Ukranian friend right now. Life on an ejector seat.
This is why some EU workers are leaving, they realise that in the event of no deal they’ll no longer comply with requirements and can be deported on whim. That and being disliked, or worse, insulted and intimidated.
Don't agree. There is a huge recruitment drive from much of Eastern Europe, in many cases they are willing to match salaries of many EU workers that have left the country. This combined with the falling pound and a much lower cost of living at their country of origin means that many of them are now returning.
Brexit or no Brexit those people were here for money and money alone.
When you actually ask real people why they left the UK it is because of the high cost of living and l hate to say it but its true but many do not like the multiculturalism in the UK, which doesn't happen in their home countries.
It is a shame that once again a handful of the STW Brexit thread regulars turn up and stifle any debate with their typical nonsensical ignorant recycled ‘facts’ ... its why they were left to fester in the STW Brexit thread by themselves.
The loss of EU nurses to the NHS is well known and documented. gone from a net inflow of around a thousand a year to a net outflow of hundreds per year.
It is a shame that once again a handful of the STW Brexit thread regulars turn up and stifle any debate with their typical nonsensical ignorant recycled ‘facts’ …
'Facts' you seem unable to counter with any of your own ?
Brexit or no Brexit those people were here for money and money alone.
Well lets have a poll of expats or ex-expats then, there are a lot on this forum. When I've worked in other countries money has never been my main motivation. In fact on my first move my salery was divided by 10.
Why did you move expats or immigrants?
Lifestyle, culture, climate, more relaxed working atmosphere, clients more likely to pay and less likely to go strategically bankrupt, better welfare state, good schools with less bullying, more chance of success without being born with a silver spoon in your gob, people not bothered about keeping up with the Joneses... .
When you actually ask real people why they left the UK it is because of the high cost of living and l hate to say it but its true but many do not like the multiculturalism in the UK, which doesn’t happen in their home countries.
Funnily enough all the ones I know are scientists who specifically say Brexit was a reason they left, and they are choosing to return to countries where it's harder to set up labs and there is less funding, including France, Portugal and others where it's easier like Germany and quite a few to Holland.
And the incessant casual xenophobia pumped out by Johnson & co is cited rather than multiculturalism ...
The ones that are staying are genuinely frustrated & worried about what Brexit means for the lives they've made here.
It is a shame that once again a handful of the STW Brexit thread regulars turn up and stifle any debate with their typical nonsensical ignorant recycled ‘facts’
Can you give an example of a nonsensical fact presented on this thread?
Well lets have a poll of expats or ex-expats then, there are a lot on this forum. When I’ve worked in other countries money has never been my main motivation. In fact on my first move my salery was divided by 10
Ok sure, but that's the opposite reason that a majority of the migrants from Eastern and Central Europe moved here from 2004. Their Salaries were multiplied by 5 or 6 and our currency was 50% higher than the Euro. Like l said it's economic.
Funnily enough all the ones I know are scientists who specifically say Brexit was a reason they left, and they are choosing to return to countries where it’s harder to set up labs and there is less funding, including France, Portugal and others like Germany and quite a few to Holland
But hang on, according to the retainers the labs will now cease to exist in the UK when the EU funding gets cut?
I'm going to say it, many Europeans blame Brexit for leaving the country but l find this very hard to believe as a standalone argument. And its actually annoying when they say they are not welcome in the UK as , if the same level of immigration was to happen in their home countries they would be kicking off big time.
Interestingly this is now happening, as immigration from Russia, Ukraine and some parts of Asia are increasing in Eastern Europe. And those people are willing to work for much less.
And so it begins....
The loss of EU nurses to the NHS is well known and documented. gone from a net inflow of around a thousand a year to a net outflow of hundreds per year.
It's a crying shame losing the EU nurses. They are very well-trained, are excellent workers and some have become good friends.
Two years ago EU (mainly Spanish and Portuguese) nurses made up about 40% of the nursing staff on my ITU. Just this year alone 24 of them have left us and the UK. 24 experienced Critical Care nurses.
The trust I work for are and have been recruiting a large number of nurses from Southern India to replace the EU nurses, and whilst they are also excellent nurses many don't have ITU experience and as such it'll take approximately 18 months to get competencies signed off for majority of them.
In the last year the pressure has increased upon the remaining experienced nurses, due to having to support so many inexperienced nurses,and as a result some of those have either left or have reduced their hours considerably.
It's a mess and only a complete sadist could be happy with Brexit, given the very real effect its having on patient safety.
But since the reformation and the empire, it established links with the rest of the world in a way unmatched by any other country.
But many other European countries had empires - it was the thing to do in those days, all the major powers were at it. The British Empire was a thing for what, 200 years, and only dominant for maybe 100. 50 years later it's receded almost to invisibility. We've been a part of Europe for far far longer than that. I believe the effect of other European interactions are still written all over our countries and the rest of Europe.
If the reformation hadn’t happened then I’d argue Britain would have remained a European country
Careful here - the separation of the CoE from Rome isn't quite the same thing as the Reformation in general.
But hang on, according to the retainers the labs will now cease to exist in the UK when the EU funding gets cut?
Have they said that, where?
EU provides about 20% of UK grants, but it's less in cancer where I work, physics , astro, will be hit harder also things like archaeology. But the effects to retaining & recruiting staff have been big, it's some of the very best who've gone back.
I’m going to say it, many Europeans blame Brexit for leaving the country but l find this very hard to believe as a standalone argument. And its actually annoying when they say they are not welcome in the UK as , if the same level of immigration was to happen in their home countries they would be kicking off big time.
Perhaps you should actually speak to some then, do you think the constant vilification of the EU & European politicians in our press & by our politicians (Johnson, fargae etc have made careers out of it!). Has no effect?
These scientists have lived , contributed & paid taxes here for years, many were very frustrated that they were denied a vote in the ref itself.
I'm sure EU workers across sectors feel exactly the same.
And France & spain, Netherlands, have similar immigrant amounts to us, Germany & ireland, considerably more
It’s a mess and only a complete sadist could be happy with Brexit, given the very real effect its having on patient safety.
Only if you blot out those engaging in the mental gymnastics of cognitive dissonance or utter shut-down la la la can't hear etc. Also, many just literally couldn't give a rat's arse as long as they are 'getting their Brexit. All the death and destruction and loss will be met with the 'Dunkirk spirit' and Viz Comic-grade tabloidism with on-rotation calls to 'weather it out'. Along with the further blaming of the EU, of course. It's more like ironic masochism.
Anyway, got to break some eggs (NHS) to sell off the omelette.
Perhaps you should actually speak to some then, do you think the constant vilification of the EU & European politicians in our press & by our politicians (Johnson, fargae etc have made careers out of it!). Has no effect?
I speak to them and l live with them, Money is the main reason and funnily enough many of them like Farage and agree with what he stands for.
I speak to them and l live with them, Money is the main reason and funnily enough many of them like Farage and agree with what he stands for.
So you just hang out with the racist ones ?😉
I would agree that a large majority of Eastern Europeans came to the UK around 2006/2007 were drawn because of financial reasons.
Working on site around that time in London and Essex myself and other chippies and tradesman were looking at around £230-£260 day rate.
The government allowed free movement of people from new EU countries (this is going from memory) whereas Germany and France put a limit on the numbers from the new states.
Our bosses were finding it harder and harder to bid on contracts and stay competitive.
The first trades to suffer were the painters. Low start up costs, I guess. Then it was the plasterers. And then it was the other trades.
I remember being on one site and the site's 110v tranny box was full of 110>240v converters with European plugs running from them. (240v generally banned on site for safety reasons.) there was a bit of a barmy with the site manager who basically said that at the prices they were charging he could afford to overlook it.
Whereas we were looking to earn upwards of 200 notes a day, the new influx of trades people were working for £60-£80 a day,but living five or six guys to a room.
Work dried up towards the end of 2007, in part because of the new, cheaper labour, but mostly because of the economic downturn.
I can't knock them for it. I'm not bitter.
You'd be foolish not to make the most of an opportunity to earn 4-5 times as much as do at home.
If you want to get angry, get angry about the government policy that allowed a massive influx of cheap labour to come onto the market.
I ended up leaving the UK in 2008 for Germany (GF is German) and thought I'd go there, learn some German and return to the UK when the economy picked up.
As it is, nigh on 12 years later, I'm not planning on returning but may well have to (application for citizenship has been turned down).
And with reference to Eastern Europeans being less not being so enamored with British multiculturalism, I would agree.
Their societies are almost exclusively white.
The further east you travel in Germany, the fewer dark skinned people you will see, and that goes for Turks, if which there are many in Germany. (**** me, casual racism is very common here in "progressive" Bavaria.)
Go across the border into Poland or Czech and you'll not see anyone who doesn't look Polish or Czech. Can't imagine going further west into the baltic states it's going to be much different.
But, hopefully familiarity breeds some more understanding, but generally people don't like what they don't know.
overinflated feelings of entitlement.
If you want to discuss "entitlement," you need not look any further than your own camp. We've had three years of hearing what leavers want, expect and demand, we won you lost get over it, with nary a care for what the other half might want. 17 million = the will of the people, 16 million = shut up and get over it. But something something democracy something, right?
andypaul
Percentage?
Which, if any, of the following words would you use to describe yourself?
Thanks for responding but something seems to be lost in translation? How does the survey that you posted in any way show what percentage of Brits do not also consider themselves ‘European’? This is the problem with such surveys, you can often skew them how you wish. True, the Brits are as a whole the least likely Europeans to consider themselves European, with (2015, Eurobaroneter National and European Identity Survey) 64% of Brits considering themselves *only* in terms of ‘British’ nationality, yet the remaining 36% are not a small percentage?
Lots of valid discussion here about Brexit stuff,
with all the focus on economies,trade,finannce and across the world countries in political trmoil,civil unrest and war.. it all seem unsolvable which migh be a clue to the fact it is time for something completely different and probably of much more importance
Lets move onto other stuff?
It is heartening to see that there is some action taking place which is beyond the petty
squabling about national identity and money.
https://www.clientearth.org/why-clientearth/
Lets move onto other stuff?
It is heartening to see that there is some action taking place which is beyond the petty
squabling about national identity and money.https://www.clientearth.org/why-clientearth/
/blockquote>The world population is growing so according to my crystal ball this is the earth's way to reduce them slowly ...
the empire
Which empire?
How many EU member nations used to have an empire?
Weird how often Brits seem to think that a history of empire is somehow unique to us.
Weird how many of them seem to think that we still have one.
then even when we became stable we regularly allied with half of Europe to defeat aggressors
Britain interaction with the continent from about the 1500 onwards tended more towards a limited engagement approach with the key aim of preventing any single country becoming dominant.
Britain interaction with the continent from about the 1500 onwards tended more towards a limited engagement…
But it “engaged” with the “continental” countries all over the globe, because… empires.
This whole “Britain historically isn’t a European country” meme can be debunked by anyone easily, it’s a dead end. The smart line to use is “not in the EU, but part of Europe”… because that can result in actual debate.
Britain interaction with the continent from about the 1500 onwards tended more towards a limited engagement approach with the key aim of preventing any single country becoming dominant.
Limited compared to what?
I mean there wasn't an EU, but I mean.. politically, times were different. My aim is to point out that physically, culturally and even ethnically we are intertwined with Europe* to a great extent. Politics are a thin and ephemeral layer on top of this. They are our siblings. Sometimes we fight, but we grew up together and that ties us.
* and other places obvs
The world population is growing so according to my crystal ball this is the earth’s way to reduce them slowly …
Would be fine in a way. if that were the case
But it seems to be destructive to all life and systems to support any that may remain.
But it seems to be destructive to all life and systems to support any that may remain.
Well without the small creatures the two legged ones will destroy themselves fighting over the leftover so the cycle begins.
kimbers
‘Facts’ you seem unable to counter with any of your own ?
But the links you previously posted to validate your opinion/views as facts were complete nonsense .. and if somebody posting such rubbish from the Brexit camp, I imagine you would dismiss it as nonsense too.
kimbers
SubscriberFunnily enough all the ones I know are scientists who specifically say Brexit was a reason they left
How many do you actually know? the devils in the detail ... for all we know you know 1 scientist who stated this reason to you ... and for all we know he may have just been saying that to you because he knows how fanatical you are about Brexit; kind of just saying it to avoid you going off on one!
kimbers
Subscriber
The ones that are staying are genuinely frustrated & worried about what Brexit means for the lives they’ve made here.
Is this something else you have made up?
To be honest Kimbers, you keep insisting on facts when somebody offers a different opinion to your own. But you present only totally unreliable studies or just things from imaginary scientists/friends/etc you claim to know as your own facts; you are a parody of the stereotypical Brexiter you hold in such disdain.
But the links you previously posted to validate your opinion/views as facts were complete nonsense
Tell us *why* it's nonsense, please.
This is why we are getting frustrated mooman - you are declaring it nonsense, without any justification. So your argument doesn't look good, you'll have to admit.
I'd love to be convinced that Brexit is a good idea, cos then I wouldn't be so depressed.
imaginary scientists/friends/etc you claim to know
Why are you accusing him of making things up? You know he works in medical research, right? Why would he come on and invent stuff? Do you really think that's what's happening here? We're just inventing things to try and make ourselves look big on the internet? I mean, I know that happens, but most of the people on here aren't that kind of forum member.
Brexiter with absolutely no upside to present gets upset when people present the blindingly obvious downsides.
I'll give an upside: the drops in GDP and the pound will reduce what people can spend on imported tat, fuel, and cars so the environment will benefit.
I'll give another. Increased tariffs will make trade more expensive, and we don't have the businesses and infrastructure in place to supply our own cheaper.
The modern world has evolved to rely on low-friction trade, and we're heading to very high friction trade so our businesses will suffer both in terms of operating costs and competitive advantage in foreign markets.
But it “engaged” with the “continental” countries all over the globe, because… empires.
Generally in a rather violent way with a relaxed approach to resource ownership which wouldnt be too welcome nowadays (or indeed at the time). I am not sure it really helps the case molgrips was trying to make though.
This whole “Britain historically isn’t a European country” meme can be debunked by anyone easily, it’s a dead end
That wasnt the argument being made so not sure of the relevance. Although the level Britain was a European country was, over the last few centuries, highly variable. The tories are living up to their history in terms of interaction.
That wasn't the argument being made
Handybar said this:
"Britain is not really a European country due to the reformation and empire"
So I think perhaps it has relevance.
But the links you previously posted to validate your opinion/views as facts
Please tell me which links...
But you present only totally unreliable studies
And again, please point these out to me.
or just things from imaginary scientists/friends/etc you claim to know as your own facts
Well I guess you'll just have to take my word for it
There's about 300 people in my institute, I'd say a good 20% from the eu. I've worked in science for 15+ years, I probably know 50+ EU scientists well enough to know why they might be leaving or staying here. Of those I can say for sure that 2 have returned to France, 2 to Germany, 1 to Holland , 2 to Portugal (actually 4 as both have Portuguese partners) 3 back to spain, 2 to Holland all of them said brexit was a factor in their leaving.
And the many more who are still here most have said they are worried about their future status here, especially ones with British girlfriends/boyfriends etc
Now theres always a lot of movement of scientists (we also have Chinese, Korean, American etc in our place) to & from home countries, it's a strength of the UK that we attract so many of the best. And the constant flow of knowledge & skills is essential to modern science.
Would all those who have left stayed with out Brexit ? Probably not but several said Brexit was the main reason they were leaving.
We have also seen a big drop in EU applicants for positions
But my anecdotes are just that, even as numbers of EU workers coming to the UK have fallen & we are already excluded from grant applications as they run from 2-5 years ahead of starting wirk- it takes time to build a grant proposal & generate preliminary data.
Every university I know is spending extra cash trying to plan for Brexit, the weak £ has taken a huge chunk out of our budget as the majority of our reagents & in our case sequencing is sourced from abroad
I'm not sure what can convince you, that I'm telling the truth, maybe ask some experts?
https://royalsociety.org/topics-policy/projects/brexit-uk-science/
So I think perhaps it has relevance.
Apologies had missed that bit. They did then evolve the argument somewhat though around where the UK focus was
molgrips
SubscriberTell us *why* it’s nonsense, please.
This is why we are getting frustrated mooman – you are declaring it nonsense, without any justification. So your argument doesn’t look good, you’ll have to admit.
If you had to critique the studies that Kimber has earlier posted .. do you think you would be able to identify many unreliable areas within them?
If you cant see any .. or not even that many, then I suggest you maybe look into how you critique a paper; it may ease your anxieties around Brexit also.
molgrips
SubscriberI’d love to be convinced that Brexit is a good idea, cos then I wouldn’t be so depressed.
I`d visit your GP and explain your mental health concern, and the trigger as you see it. I had previously cautioned you about making yourself unwell with your Brexit opinions/views.
molgrips
Subscriber
Why are you accusing him of making things up? You know he works in medical research, right? Why would he come on and invent stuff? Do you really think that’s what’s happening here? We’re just inventing things to try and make ourselves look big on the internet? I mean, I know that happens, but most of the people on here aren’t that kind of forum member.
No I didnt know he works in medical. But what difference does that make?
Does that make it impossible for him to lie? does that mean all EU employees inform him of their reasons regarding Brexit??
You ask why would he make things up, then add most of the people here arent that type of forum members ... how many STW forum members have you actually met in person?