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I didn't miss what happened in Greece, a number of EU countries blocked the issuing of European bonds so the ECB was unable to fulfil its role as a lender of last resort at sensible interest rates. That is not a failure of the EU it is the consequence of member states giving the EU/ECB sufficient powers and resources.
Things have improved since then, the Covid debt being underwritten by the ECB with the support of member states. One of the benefits of Brexit for Europeans is that the absence of the UK has moved the balance of power away from austerity favouring countries towards solidarity favouring countries.
I’m pretty sure if we went to the effort of reforming democracy Parish councils would be abolished without a second’s thought. Although I suppose creating a pointless talking shop to keep the local busybodies away from everyone else is as good a tactic as any other.
Ok I admit I took the illogical extreme.
But since January 2020, Westminster does seem to be getting itself a reputation for cronyism and corruption like never before. It’s certainly not an advert for moving away from the supranational to a more local democracy in order to promote accountability.
Just yesterday there was yet another story about contracts being quietly awarded to Friends of the Tory Party. And I don’t doubt if Labour, or LibDems, or Monster Raving Loonies were in power all that would change is whose friends got the dodgy deals.
I admire your aspirations. But it don’t think it works.
And that’s before we consider the problems Europe going for a big old war once a generation or the specific problems of the 1930-40s that the EU as a supranational organisation has, if not eliminated, then detuned a spectacular amount.
But since January 2020, Westminster does seem to be getting itself a reputation for cronyism and corruption like never before
Whilst shutting down any scrutiny of its actions 🙂
Well one mans Brexit wins going to be another’s loss I suppose.
The problem is that in the West we hold democracy up as an ideal, a goal, an end, which it isn't - the end is good government, democracy is just a deeply flawed means to try and achieve that. Deeply flawed, but every other system is worse.
But by considering democracy itself as the goal, it implies that the people are bound to make good decisions in everyone's best interests; and if we could just tweak the democratic process we'd automatically have good government. This isn't true. People are for the most part decent, or can be encouraged to act as such, but for the last 40 years the emphasis has been on the opposite. And here we are.
Democracy is essential. But if you think that a successful well functioning democracy is just about having the right to vote for whoever governs you, and not about the checks and balances on them, and protection from them for the citizen, especially those in minority groups, or about jointly integrating with neighbouring countries to foster cooperation and understanding between the people that live in them, read more history.
+1
fundamental flaw of democracy, what is of interest to the people isn't necessarily in the interest of the people. If you have an engaged electorate you have a chance, if you have an electorate who only cares about love island you're screwed.
Isn't the problem with the "take back control" argument that power or control at any level of government is an illusion. The Parish council can talk, request and talk some more. Local government controls a large amount spending, but within tight guidelines and controls form government. The same could be said of devolved government. Within government, individual ministers have are lobbied by industry and are constrained by domestic and international law, spending and trading agreements.
fundamental flaw of democracy, what is of interest to the people isn’t necessarily in the interest of the people. If you have an engaged electorate you have a chance, if you have an electorate who only cares about love island you’re screwed.
Indeed it's a flawed system, amd still wide open to industry influence (bribery and corruption) but it's the most fair system we have, as long as there are checks and balances.
Social/liberal democracy seems to be the best thing the human mind can conjore for a better overall society. But I'm all ears, if anyone has a revelation.
Benign dictatorship.
There’s no such thing. This is why a steadily developing rule based system agreed with partner countries is part of the answer. Even if it upsets both the anarchists and those that yearn for a strong national leader with no constraints on their actions.
The big problem in the UK is 'jobs for the boys'.
If you donate a few hundred grand to an MP, you'll get a multi million pound contract for ferrys or PPE or whatever, it matters not what the goods are, or if you can deliver.
It's bribary and corruption.
This is the the largest problem with the UK's increasingly more nationalist attitude.
It’s the easiest thing in the world to dismiss those you disagree with as stupid or ignorant.
And this perfectly highlights why I wrote what I wrote, because I knew that if I didn't then you'd jump on it. You've been banging this drum for years and it's a straw man, I literally said the opposite of what you're rallying against in the second half of the sentence that you've conveniently failed to quote. It's seemingly a useful stick to beat people you don't agree with though.
Some people are stupid. That's an inescapable fact. I agree 100% with you that calling them stupid doesn't help matters, isn't going to win them round, and isn't a very nice thing to do generally. But that doesn't make them cleverer.
Ditto ignorant, but that shouldn't be an insult, there's plenty of things I'm ignorant of. I'm astonishingly poor at Geography. Chemistry passed me by aside from knowing most of the chemical symbols on the lower end of the periodic table. I'm wildly ignorant on great swathes of History.
The status quo is always harder to defend against some illusory unicorn-land in these circumstances
voting for any type of change was preferable to keeping it the same
This is kinda strawmanny too. The status quo has been paraded about in the same manner (and by the same people) as the concept of project fear. But this isn't the only option and should never have been presented as such. The alternative to Leave should not have been (only?) Remain, but rather Reform.
You can’t rely on any government to do the right thing. The only thing you can do is hold them to account, make their actions visible to voters, and enable voters to give them a mandate.
That worked out well for us last time we tried giving the populace the power of mandate, didn't it.
This is another Page 2 argument. "The people" cannot be trusted any more than politicians. Cf. brexit. What they think they want and what is in their - and everyone else's - best interests are not aligned.
How do you think a referendum to abolish tax would pan out? Would doing so be a good idea?
"The people" want to deport immigrants because the NHS is understaffed. But they're not stupid, or ignorant, oh dearie me no. Well what the **** are they, then?
It may prove more worthwhile to discuss the practicalities of living and working in the grim reality of post brexit land.
We (the majority on this here forum) have to cope with a country that to be frank has demonstrated its true colours.
I am checking out (not literally) and plan to contribute as little as possible, i dont give a * if the great unwashed have to sit in their own shit and beg for means tested benefits so be it.
My natural socialist tendencies have been shelved, i never thought this would happen.
Its hard to explain how much i despise parts of our society which i would have defended to the hilt a few years back.
And these people are part of my family, they are sadly thick as shit and more importantly dont give a * about any of the economic ruin that brexit has brought upon many people.
I am going to buy myself a nice little spot in the south of france and spend six months of the year sat in the sun. I will send my family members a few selfies... this will underin their view i have had advantages they didnt. Funny as ****.
Many who campaigned for Brexit, and then manipulated post referendum politics to get a hard Brexit, would call that a win oldmanmtb2. Don’t fall for their game.
Don’t fall for their game.
Oldmanmtb2’s gone full on ultra Tory 🙂
It’s an interesting point thou.
We (the majority on this here forum) have to cope with a country that to be frank has demonstrated its true colours.
I disagree. Very nearly half of voters voted against Brexit, but also a fair few either didn't care or were aware of their own ignorance. And since the vote a lot of people have realised that they've been duped. So I don't think the 'true colours' argument is fair, especially when directed against an entire country. I don't want you talking as if I'm culpable for this.
Social/liberal democracy seems to be the best thing the human mind can conjore for a better overall society. But I’m all ears, if anyone has a revelation.
How far into this do you want to get? I'll keep it short(ish). The problem with democracy is that the voters are not sufficiently engaged or empowered. Instead of facilitating good democratic decision making, our system of 'democracy' (I use quotes because it's not really democratic) does the opposite by removing power from voters and giving it to a tiny few representatives who promise to do stuff that they interpret as being the voters wishes. That's not democratic, it's just abdicating power to people who are barely qualified to exercise it.
There have been loads of examples and experiments in participatory, consensus based decision making and non-representative democratic structures throughout history, and there's loads of evidence that they work and provide better decisions. The people who hold power don't want our current system to work in the way most people understand it (as in politicians doing what the people tell them) because it would dilute their power. What's more instead of using the failings of this system as a reason to improve it, we're told it proves that we shouldn't have more democratic systems because the people can't be trusted. The people make stupid decisions because the system ensures it. If we changed that system to make it truly democratic, we'd get better decisions and better policy from government.
The big problem in the UK is ‘jobs for the boys’.
No, that's well down the list IMO. The biggest problem we have is anti-education anti-intellectualist populism, that means that no-one really wants to think about the issues, learn, and evolve. And that is due largely to the education system. If we could teach people how to spot media manipulation the tabloids would lose most of their influence.
I agree with both oldmanmtb2 and Kelvin.
The fact of the matter is, it's a really sad state of affiars for society. Maybe poor education can be blamed, or poor parents, but we are where we are.
We are all a product of circumstance on some level.
Thank you for your contributions, Oldmanmtb2. Your tales from work have made me smile whilst wincing at the level of understanding displayed by those around you.
I wish you well with your business and retirement when it comes. When you can afford it do it. I closed my business when my gouvernement voted laws to make my business insufficiently profitable to be worth pursuing. Hindsight tells me it was a good decision.
Don't kill youself fo a slightly bigger pension pot. Two of my ski racing contemporaries have died recently of heart attacks witin two years of retirement.
It is what it is. I am fortunate that i dont have to engage with it or support it.
Cheers Edukator..
Politically i am now slightly left of Stalin... rather than right of Mogg.
I am pleased to be closer to 60 than 30.
Its hard to explain how much i despise parts of our society which i would have defended to the hilt a few years back.
In the nicest way possible, I would maybe suggest that's where you've gone wrong. Not much has really changed between 2015 and now. The main thing that did is that people across a wide spectrum of society voted to change something they didn't understand beyond the view that it didn't work for them. For my part I don't despise them (racists aside of course), I despise the people and the system which led them to vote against their own interests. I said to many people after the 2010 election that the only thing that had changed was that I could feel good about hating the government instead of feeling deeply disappointed by it. Brexit is much the same.
Well dazh i admire your faith in these folks.
They are pretty much going to dictate our society for the foreseeable future.
Enjoy
They are pretty much going to dictate our society for the foreseeable future.
Don't be daft, they have almost no influence or say in anything so blaming them is pretty ridiculous. It's the easiest thing in the world to blame those below for whatever we think is wrong. Brexit is just the latest event in a long history of divide and rule politics, and we fall for it every single time.
they have almost no influence or say in anything
This is true. But who will their vote be enabling? A lot of damage can be done in their name, claiming it is their will, while people accept that a sizeable minority of the population is a mandate for whatever those in charge say must happen, come what may. Our leaders keep doing whatever they want, simply by saying, “it’s in the spirit of Brexit”, even if it is the exact opposite of what they themselves promised would be the result of a Leave vote, or was in their election manifesto. Just magic the words “not real Brexit” and anything can be written off. Utter “delivering on the will of the people” and you can justify doing anything, no matter what proportion of the public think it is pointless and self harming.
It’s the easiest thing in the world to blame those below for whatever we think is wrong.
Wait, what? Is that not what you've been championing all along?
You want power to the people, who are "those below"?
Don’t be daft, they have almost no influence or say in anything so blaming them is pretty ridiculous.
Utter bollocks.
Every time someone has rightly pointed out an issue with Brexit a smugly grinning Brexiteer is trotted out and says 'will of the people'.
Dodgy contract granted to mates for Brexit-driven issue? Will of the people.
Parliament bypassed or illegally prorogued? Will of the people.
The nasty, racist, xenophobic, short sighted, insular, entitled, stupid views of 'the people' have constantly been used as justification for driving this country over a self-created cliff edge. And all so a few well-placed cynical exploiters can profit. And kick back a tasty amount to the politicians who enabled it.
I am checking out (not literally) and plan to contribute as little as possible, i dont give a **** if the great unwashed have to sit in their own shit and beg for means tested benefits so be it.
My natural socialist tendencies have been shelved, i never thought this would happen.
On the Friday after the 2019 GE I turned to my wife and said:
"**** 'em",
"if the poor vote not only for themselves to be poorer, but us also, then **** 'em"
I also made the same decision.
On the Friday after the 2019 GE I turned to my wife and said:
“* ’em”,
“if the poor vote not only for themselves to be poorer, but us also, then * ’em”I also made the same decision.
Yep. I don't actively wish harm to come to people who voted Leave and then for Johnson, but at the same time I couldn't give a flying **** if it does. They voted for it. I didn't.
If I could arrange my tax affairs in such a way as to minimise my contribution to this ridiculous folly, I would.
We now fall foul of import - a fire in our kitchen needed replacements from Sweden for 4 cupboards, all ordered in December.
They are due for delivery on Thursday and we have £166.24 of odd import tax and duties to pay.
FFS.
Will of the people, innit.
They are due for delivery on Thursday and we have £166.24 of odd import tax and duties to pay.
At least you can console yourself that your £166.24 will be used effectively and directly for the common good of the population....
🤣😅🤣😅🤣
Don’t be daft, they have almost no influence or say in anything so blaming them is pretty ridiculous.
Although you are right in one, limited way. By accident.
They have no say now same as us grownups. The problem is that it was a one-shot deal. They had one chance. And they ****ed it up. If they suffer as a result, tough titty.
Good to see Liz Truss refusing to answer questions now... this should be much bigger news.
https://twitter.com/EmilyThornberry/status/1361340770033270785
Thornberry is wrong. The government have shown that they can indeed stick their heads in the sand... and more than that... claim that there is no issue to address... without outright lies... and they'll be given a free pass to do so...
"There is no border in the Irish sea"
"There are no non-tariff barriers"
No one wants to admit to the Big Lie.
Quelle surprise.
Truss is an utter cretin.
For all the '**** em' crowd. You do realise that these people likely have kids or other dependents, who will suffer because of this? You also realise that people made mistakes and are admitting to that?
I consider myself left of centre because I care about the plight of others. I still care, even if they vote Tory or Brexit. Because I know how easily fooled most people are, but mostly because I am compassionate and not a total bastard.
The '**** em' crowd really are a wet dream to those people who have taken over the Conservative party, aren't they. Divide and rule was never more true.
They voted to eat shit, it is the will of the people. To 'help' would be 'undemocratic'.
a wife goes back to her abusive husband
do you blame the wife, or the husband?
any energy should be about fighter against the people in charge who got us into this mess. Not the general public.
They voted for all of us to eat shit whether or not we wanted to eat shit.
Therefore, while me and my kids won't enjoy eating our portion of shit, I'll ****ing well enjoy them eating their portion of shit.
But we are such a patronising metropolitan elite on here. We'd only be patronising them more by trying to explain the errors of their ways....
No, it would be unpatriotic and undemocratic to undermine the will of the people by telling them a little thing called 'the truth'.
In any case there will be yummy bowls of 'sovrunty' to eat with lashings of 'two world wars and one world cup' on the side.
🤣
They voted to eat shit
They didn't, though. They voted to make the country better, or so they thought. They were manipulated.
Therefore, while me and my kids won’t enjoy eating our portion of shit, I’ll **** well enjoy them eating their portion of shit.
You lack compassion. That's not going to help any of us out of this mess, is it? Looks like there are arseholes on both sides of this.
Apart from the racists.
And the protest voters.
Etc.
Thank you alcolepone and molgrips... this was all taking on a very depressing tone.
a wife goes back to her abusive husband
do you blame the wife, or the husband?
A bloke buys a nicked stereo off another bloke down the pub. He knows it is nicked but he doesn't care because it is cheap and easy. The other bloke trousers the money then goes off and burgles another house.
Do you blame the bloke selling the obviously dodgy stereo alone or do you apportion some of the blame to the willing participant in crime who knows it is nicked?
Not sure why one straw man is better than the other here, but I would say mine is closer to the mark in any case.
You also realise that people made mistakes and are admitting to that?
Bit like the drink driver who killed someone and is now full of remorse, doesn't change the fact they made a very bad decision which is now impacting them and others.
I'm with the **** em brigade. Ignorant and thoughtless (these are descriptions not insults) people made a stupid choice which is now going to screw them the most. I have little sympathy. As for the Tories wet dream, I doubt it, many of us feel as betrayed by them as the 52%. It'll be a long time before I could even consider voting Tory again and I doubt I'm alone. Hell I voted for Corbyn last time and he's the antitheist of everything I believe as he was a better option.
Meanwhile the 52% who have generally screwed themselves will waddle back to Labour expecting to be looked after again despite their own collusion in their downfall.
They didn’t, though. They voted to make the country better, or so they thought. They were manipulated.
They didn't, though. They voted to make their own lot better, preferably at the expense of others they disliked (foreigners, leftie liberals etc.)
They lack compassion and will continue to try to improve their lot at the expense of others.
They didn’t, though. They voted to make their own lot better, preferably at the expense of others they disliked (foreigners, leftie liberals etc.)
They lack compassion and will continue to try to improve their lot at the expense of others.
They love socialism, so long as it is for them and no one else, particularly if they are somehow different. You might almost call it Nationalist Socialism. If only there was a catchy shorthand for that.
Not true at all. A lot of people believed that the NHS would be getting more money, for example. This isn't a selfish motive is it?
It seems rather odd that people would be in favour of solidarity and togetherness (i.e. the EU) but displaying such divisive behaviour at the same time.
Basically, you are hating those who don't agree with you based on sweeping generalisations. This makes you no better or even actually worse than a large portion of Brexit voters. I am just as angry about all this as you all are, trust me. But lashing out and acting like a total bastard is not the solution. It feels silly to paraphrase Star Wars but really - don't give in to your anger and hate.
lashing out and acting like a total bastard is not the solution.
I dunno. It worked for the snoutflakes.
Not true at all. A lot of people believed that the NHS would be getting more money, for example. This isn’t a selfish motive is it?
Nope, not at all.
But then they were shown, advised, informed, whatever that this wasn't going to happen and they refused to accept it, in a lot of cases because they refuse to countenance that they were wrong / fooled. It's like the pensioner that is scammed out of his pension but doesn't tell anyone because the idea of admitting the error is worse to them than the loss of the money. Call it stupid pride, but in the end that's the point where I lost patience.
Do I want people to suffer for it. No, I wish no-one had to but I didn't want this, I didn't vote for it, I told anyone that I could that they were making a mistake, and now the pigeons are coming home to roost, why should I feel obliged to step in. You didn't want my help or advice then, why do you want it now?
I'm with molgrips on this, no amount of "**** them they voted for this" is going to help anyone. My dad voted for brexit despite me telling him to ask his grandchildren what they wanted, he passed away in 2018 so no good telling him to chew on a shit sandwich.
But then they were shown, advised, informed, whatever that this wasn’t going to happen and they refused to accept it
Yeah because there is an absolute crisis of trust in politics. That means it's easy to dismiss things you subconsciously don't like the sound of. We all do this, even you and me.
No-one likes to admit they're wrong, even to themselves.
why should I feel obliged to step in
Humanity? Compassion? Do those things matter to you? If you want people to admit, even to themselves, that they were wrong, or maybe change their mind, you have to make it acceptable and easy for them to do so. Your animosity creates a barrier to this - if you act like you despise them for voting Brexit all it will do is strengthen their resolve and their resistance to alternative ideas.
Not true at all. A lot of people believed that the NHS would be getting more money, for example. This isn’t a selfish motive is it?
The ones I know (predominantly my, and my wife's', families) mainly believed the NHS would get more money because we could get rid of all the freeloading foreigners who were stealing healthcare they weren't entitled to - on the grounds that they were foreigners and or non-white.
So yes, still a selfish motive.
This was despite evidence contrary to this that was freely available.
It seems rather odd that people would be in favour of solidarity and togetherness (i.e. the EU) but displaying such divisive behaviour at the same time.
I've traditionally been left leaning and believed in solidarity and togetherness and thought most other people in this country did; I was wrong as it seems 52% don't believe in that at all.
I feel like I was swimming along in a co-ordinated shoal, a few apex predators around the edges, but working together we could look after each other and evade most of them.
Then I looked again and half the shoal have evolved into piranha, except they hadn't. They were always piranha and it was my naivety and wishful thinking that portrayed them otherwise.
They have always just looked after number one and I need to evolve to survive - look after me and my own and let others sink or swim.
I didn't make the rules and, for the time being at least, I'm stuck in this pond.
So you only believe in solidarity when everyone else does too? Don't you see a flaw in that idea? I don't think you really believe in it at all, in that case, if you're prepared to abandon the cause so easily.
Whatever your moral position, the reality is that FEA (**** Em Attitude) is going to make things worse, not better. What do you want to do here? Reinforce the gap between remainers and Brexiters? Gloat? Humiliate them? Entrench division in society? Because that's what FEA is going to do, in fact that's what got us here in the first place. **** foreigners, **** the metropolitan elites etc. So your **** Brexiters attitude is not that different, from a moral perspective and certainly not helping matters from a practical perspective.
You're right. Sorry.
Let's give them an award instead. I suggest the Campaign to Unify the Nation Trophy.
So you only believe in solidarity when everyone else does too? Don’t you see a flaw in that idea? I don’t think you really believe in it at all, in that case, if you’re prepared to abandon the cause so easily.
So you suggest I adopt their ways of thinking to be in solidarity with them?
That's what I'm partially suggesting.
Self interest before anything else.
* foreigners, * the metropolitan elites etc.
I'd rather not show solidarity with that way of thinking though, thank you.
I'm not displaying a **** them attitude, I wish them no ill, but I don't wish myself ill just to benefit them either.
Sometimes you have to step back and let things take their course, i am not going round my extended brexity family telling them i dont give a * i simply no longer point out the shit show or give a * about what happens to them.
Sometimes uou need to cease being the enemy and let the real enemy become obvious... if certain elements of society can not recognise that real enemy and react (vote) accordingly - well there is nothing i can do.
But we are such a patronising metropolitan elite on here
Not all of us, some of us a patronising rural elite.
This makes you no better or even actually worse than a large portion of Brexit voters.
Well that sounds like victim blaming and utter rubbish. You're damn right I'm angry, people who voted for Brexit pretty much all did it for selfish and nasty reasons, Brexit has pretty much no redeeming features. They voted to screw themselves and everybody along with them and you can't even argue it was with the best of intentions because it wasn't.
Am I going to actively avoid paying tax, no I'll continue to pay what I owe but I'm not going to be voting for any tax rises anytime soon to support the people who voted for Brexit or lose a lot of sleep over their corresponding drop in lifestyle. Of course the main irony is the people they voted in to enable the Brexit debacle are the least likely to support them in the long run, even by Tory standards.
You also realise that people made mistakes and are admitting to that?
Yes. But far far too few and far far too late.
A lot of people believed that the NHS would be getting more money, for example. This isn’t a selfish motive is it?
But the elephant in the room is,
Where are they now? Are they writing to their MPs about how they've been duped? Are they on vox pop interviews on TV? Are they (gods forbid) hitting social media expressing their upset, remorse and anger? Or are they pottering round Sainsbury's whining that there's no strawberries and blaming it on covid?
You talk like there's been a seismic change. There hasn't. We still voted the ****ers back in at the last GE. The ignorant are still ignorant despite having had the last five years to learn something ("project fear!!1!"), the racists are still racist, and science still hasen't found a cure for stupid. And everyone else, the vast majority of the country in all likelihood, simply stopped caring five seconds after they walked out of the ballot room.
It's gonna get much, much worse before it gets any better. Mark my words. This country is like a substance addict, it's going to have to hit rock bottom and start digging before it realises that it wants to start sorting its life out while it's still clinging desperately on to one.
Argentina here we come. Although a century later and there still not sorted....
The ones I know (predominantly my, and my wife’s’, families) mainly believed the NHS would get more money because we could get rid of all the freeloading foreigners who were stealing healthcare they weren’t entitled to – on the grounds that they were foreigners and or non-white.
So yes, still a selfish motive.
A million times this.
There was always, ALWAYS the undercurrent of 'foreign freeloaders' when the NHS was brought up in discussion.
I'm not actively wishing anything bad on people, I just don't give a shit if it does.
Early on this summer my son whacked his tennis racket on the ground in anger when we playing, bending it out of shape. He has shown tendencies in the past to be a bad loser and have tantrums when playing sport and he's had numerous warnings. Did I go "there there little cherub, you've damaged your own tennis racket so I'll reward you by instantly buying a new one"?
Did I ****. I told him how stupid, self-defeating and childish his actions were and that he wouldn't be getting a new one until he needed it because of growing out of the old one. He finally got a new tennis racket at Christmas and guess what.... We've played a few times since (but lockdown put paid to that) and he has been mardy at a few points, but he hasn't come close to damaging his new racket. That is because every time he had to play with the old and damaged one he was reminded of his childish tantrum and its consequences.
I see bad Brexit effects on Pro-Brexit as the same thing. If you reward childish behaviour you reinforce it. They need to play with a bent racket for a while. To remind them.
I think I'd have a lot more sympathy if they hadn't spent the last five years being insufferable gloating shits about it. "We won you lost get over it / what part of 'leave' don't you understand" etc etc.
We all lose collectively and I take no joy in that, but the schadenfreude for me would be to see their smug grins wiped from their pineapple-ringed faces. I don't want anyone to be screwed over, but I absolutely want them to come to the realisation of just how much they've ****ed things up. I want them to own it. I want them to eat humble pie. I want them to say sorry.
It'll never happen, of course. It'll still all be our fault, or covid's fault, or project fear, or a price worth paying, or short-term pain, or any other bloody excuse which absolves them of any responsibility.
^^^^
Which basically comes back, succinctly, to two words.
**** 'em.
Well the last couple of pages have been quite eye-opening. Molgrips, Kelvin and alcolepne aside, the rest of you aren't doing much to counter the stereotype of comfortable middle class people whining because their foreign holidays and retirement plans have been made a tad more difficult. Grow up FFS, you sound like the boy who takes his cricket bat home if he doesn't get to go first.
Nevermind
Grow up FFS, you sound like the boy who takes his cricket bat home if he doesn’t get to go first.
That's way too mature, my daughter had more coherent tantrums when she was three.
the rest of you aren’t doing much to counter the stereotype of comfortable middle class people whining because their foreign holidays and retirement plans have been made a tad more difficult.
That's your takeaway from this, really, just really. It's the complete opposite, we knew this was going to happen, we knew these idiots were voting for their own destruction, we knew it would kill opportunities for our kids in Europe. No one on here has mentioned holidays or retirement plans, if there's any stereotyping going on it's you doing it.
Brexit has made this country a much unpleasant place to live, it's made casual and not so casual racism more acceptable again, it's caused massive societal divisions and it will create a whole group of people who are much worse off who will continue to cause problems for the whole of society. Of course the other irony is that a lot of the expats in Spain who didn't see any need to become residents or make an effort to integrate are now finding they have to come a lot more regularly and can't get health care in the country they've done so little to contribute to and have to come back to the UK for it.
Grow up FFS
We have.
We stopped caring.
Deal with it.
They didn’t, though. They voted to make their own lot better, preferably at the expense of others they disliked (foreigners, leftie liberals etc.)They lack compassion and will continue to try to improve their lot at the expense of others.
Some of them were all of the above, but not all of them, though I have run into some who did it to 'own the libs'. These types will have the same problem as the maga brigade in a few years when they realize the government/leader they voted for still aren't 'hurting the right' people enough.
This should all come down to education as discussed earlier, but even with all the goodwill in the World some people have been nurtured to act against their own interests.
Better to just get straight to the point and actually take a leaf out of the right-wing playbook and control the message being sent to these folks.
Sometimes you have to step back and let things take their course
Sometimes uou need to cease being the enemy and let the real enemy become obvious
Giving up and letting the current state of affairs to continue happen means it will become the new normal, don't expect people to come to their senses of their own accord, the message that must be impressed upon them is all important.
Not quite right Daz, we would all like to keep on playing cricket but the guy who threw the bat over the wall into the spooky garden is now blaming us for the fact that no one can play cricket.
Well that sounds like victim blaming and utter rubbish.
You view yourself as a victim? Interesting. That suggest you think it's a deliberate campaign to damage your prospects. It's not - it's just a **** up.
Look. People are not fundamentally bad - on the whole, we're a mix of good and bad tendencies. The problem that we have is that humans draw a circle around themselves - inside the circle is considered 'us', and outside is 'them'. The only difference between the left and the right, the progressive and the conservative is where that line gets drawn. Most of us only hang around with people in a similar group to us in one way or another. Our own socio-economic group, our own regional group, our own nationality etc. So we have an inherent tendency to distrust those outside it. I think this goes back to the tribal origins of our species.
A lot of people draw the line at the border of their country, but sometimes it's their area of the country, it's often their social class. Some people draw the line around the whole of humanity. Many people on here are drawing the line between remainers and Brexiters, which is why we see the FEA and the 'brexiters think this and that'. You are hating each other because you don't understand each other's points of view. That's not to say that all points of view are equally valid - I firmly believe that brexiters are wrong, and that their viewpoint should be challenged - but you do need to understand the reasons for them holding it. Ok so maybe they don't like foreigners - why? Why are they xenophobic? And don't answer 'because they're ****s' - that's not an answer, it's an attack. If you are standing on one side of the line and shouting, then you're no different to those standing on the other side doing the same.
What dictates where we draw our lines? I think a large part of it is knowledge, experience and compassion. A great many Brexiters voted Brexit because they simply had no idea what the EU actually does, or did for us. Because they've been fed bollocks and haven't the experience and education to spot that. If you drive a bus or work in MacDs, how would you ever have an understanding of the benefits of free trade and supra-national government? It wasn't on my school curriculum, even if I had been listening.
Yes, Brexiters are to blame for our inevitable isolation and economic decline. But what are you going to do about that? They ****ed up, even if they don't realise it. So how is being an arsehole to them going to help anything? If you want to see what happens to a country when no-one listens or tries to understand each other, then look at the USA. Erase that line between 'us' and 'them' on your side and theirs. It's the only way anything is going to improve.
Im certainly not middle class living in the same one bedroom council/housing association house that ive had for the previous 25yrs and surviving on disability benefits so am I allowed to say "**** em" for Brexit?, utterly ****ing stupid thick headed wilfully ignorant ****s that rightfully deserve their faces shoved in the pile of shite that is their own making at every opportunity till they admit they were wrong.
Shout it from the rooftops if you like.
I'm not listening. I'm not interested in all the petty 'reasoning' or excuses or trying to wriggle out of responsibility.
Could.Not.Give.A.Toss
The only thing that I would be prepared to listen to would be a genuine 'sorry' and a promise not to vote ever again. When the adults can then elect other adults we might, just might, be able to put this shitshow back on the rails back to respectability.
But we all know it ain't gonna happen so.....
A gallic shrug is all I can muster.