Forum menu
It forbids any border infrastructure.
No it doesn't
It doesn’t.
Well, it does, it says, "The removal of Security Installations" But there's nothing about customs or checks
But the GFA does say that one can be either a citizen of the UK and/or a citizen of the Republic and live and work in either state with equal access to employment rights and legislation (free movement, and the single market especially). And that does seem at face value to be incompatible with border checks.
The thing is that either new border option (as it happens, we're using a bit of both... some of the new divisions are on the island) weakens that concept. Anything we put in place postBrexit, short of all UK as good as joining Ireland in the SM & CU, messes things up... we're just trying to reduce the impact of that mess... and the NIP is part of that... it's not great... it's better than other options. It's a fudge. Maybe it can be improved on. But those still claiming a fudge isn't needed seem to want to divide Ireland further, no matter the consequences to the people living north and south of the border, because their view of Britishness means not blurring the lines between "us" Brits and those that live with us or near us who either aren't Brits, or are British and...
Not the brexiteers appear to give a shit
There is a case for saying that the opinions of woolly faced murderers (New IRA) making threats to governments from their bedrooms, should be held in the upmost of contempt and shouldn't form the basis of political decisions made by governments.
Well, it does, it says, “The removal of Security Installations” But there’s nothing about customs or checks
Precisely so there could be checks or a basic customs office for those carrying freight to check into - not that there was ever a formal proposal to do that. Most, if not all, of the movement rights exist under the CTA anyway.
So that's your solution Mefty? Unsecured border facilities all across the island of Ireland? How many? What happens if they aren't just met with a friendly shrug? (Of course there are similar issues having "harder" border facilities at every port of entry from GB... this isn't about choosing a good option over a bad one, it's about a balance of using some attributes of two rubbish options to try and create a less bad option, because the politicians have ruled out the use of any good options).
I’m sure all these teething problems will vanish once the extra procedures etc come into play in April and July.
Entirely likely. Because everyone trying to move goods will have gone bust by then.
How would you solve it Binners? Or do you deny that its an issue that needs solving?
Of course it's an issue that needs solving. But this is a problem of your making. Don't project that onto Binners, it's not his monkey.
You've hit a vase with a hammer and are now standing there looking at everyone else and going "well, what are you going to do about it?" **** that, how would YOU solve it?
It doesn’t.
It does. And I've provided as much evidence to back up my claim as you have. I think I'm going to coin this "Pantomime Logic."
You’ve hit a vase with a hammer and are now standing there looking at everyone else and going “well, what are you going to do about it?” **** that, how would YOU solve it?
I mentioned a solution to the specific issue of companies not delivering to N.I and was ridiculed for it by Binners. It may not have been a great solution, fine, however as Binners was the one to ridicule me I asked him for a solution, for that specific issue.
It does
Text of Belfast/GFA
Here’s the text, just point out where it does.
I see 9 matches for border, none of which say anything about a hard border, no matches for customs.
Most, if not all, of the movement rights exist under the CTA anyway.
Erm...there was a plan (in 2016) to suggest that British Customs might be stationed at Republic ports and Airports to check EU citizens (not Republic or NI citizens) but the plans weren't ever finalised, and I think politicians in the Republic (quite rightly perhaps?) suggested that they wouldn't be happy having another country's border agency operating in their country thanks ever so much, and could the UK please have another go at it...so no, the CTA rights aren't at all certain
How would you solve it Binners?
I dunno about Binners but I'd solve it by marching us all straight back into the EU, Schengen, Euro and all. **** Brexit, and **** Brexiteers, is my current state of mind.
I mentioned a solution to the specific issue of companies not delivering to N.I and was ridiculed for it by Binners.
Quite rightly because it was pie in the sky claptrap.
+1 for molgrips solution too
it says they will
intensify co-operation between the two
Governments on the all-island or cross-border aspects of these matters.
border checks would be the opposite of that
the bigger issue is that a customs border would impede the daily movement of people between the countries
the GFA & the freedom that followed from it would have been almost impossible without the frictionless flow of people & goods allowed by CU & SM membership
no matches for customs
Because... wait for it... there are no customs checks between two countries in the Customs Union... which was the state of affairs between all three parties when this was written. The "close cooperation ... as partners in the European Union" means there is no need for all the "where do we put the customs checks" problems we now have... they are an entirely new mess imposed on the majority of the people of NI, and all the people of the island of Ireland, by "the UK" (in effect England&Wales, with support from the DUP who never wanted the Good Friday Agreement, they want it torn up... I've still no idea what those that voted with the DUP in NI in the referendum were thinking... who were they trusting in to sort out the aftermath of a Leave vote?)
(Actually... you're an example dougiedogg... why did you go along with the DUP* in the referendum... why did you trust them rather than all the other** groups in NI... and who did you think would sort out the postBrexit mess for you?)
*who didn't support The Good Friday agreement.
**who did support The Good Friday agreement.
Why do you think I "went along with the DUP"?
As an aside, you do realise the GFA involved the release of murderers from prison? Quite a reasonable reason to be against it BTW.
I voted for Brexit to remove a level of government, that was my reason for voting, nothing else. I don't want to discuss that either as it has been discussed to death.
Molgrips : I dunno about Binners but I’d solve it by marching us all straight back into the EU, Schengen, Euro and all. * Brexit, and * Brexiteers, is my current state of mind.
Sounds like an entirely sensible solution to me
I voted for Brexit to remove a level of government, that was my reason for voting, nothing else.
So, who do you think is going to fix the mess you’ve helped make? The UK government of the time warned you about it. Every living past Prime Minister warned you about it. All the political parities in NI except the DUP warned you about it. Who are you expecting to sort it out for you? Could it perhaps be that the “level of government” you wanted done away with did in fact aid cooperation and reduce barriers between the UK and Ireland in a way that made The Good Friday Agreement, and today’s relative peace and prosperity, possible in NI? So, what replaces all that, and who do you trust to deliver it for you?
As an aside, you do realise the GFA involved the release of murderers from prison? Quite a reasonable reason to be against it BTW.
And how’s that working out? Better than the old days perhaps? The acceptable level of violence seems to be a thing of the past.
Kelvin it's sorted to my satisfaction to be honest, I've no problem with the Irish sea border and that was what prompted my post earlier.
Sorry Kilo I don't understand? Is letting murderers walk free ok? I would have preferred an agreement withoit it to be honest.
I have arrived at the point where i dont give a * about any of Brexits misery (and there is much more to come)
I will deal with the impact on my life which is limited to free movement.
Thing is the people who voted for this shit show also dont give a * about NI Border, fishing, farming, Aupairs, loss of skilled people, repatriation of old folks from spain, a United Ireland, an independent Scotland.. its all someone elses problem. I can not explain how little they care. The eventual brain drain and lack of investment will have no impact on them- they will not see the light ever.
Sorry Kilo I don’t understand? Is letting murderers walk free ok? I would have preferred an agreement withoit it to be honest
Being brutally frank it is if it’s for the greatest good, yes it is ok. Criminals, on both sides, released on licence, after review and under strict conditions, to help move the peace process forwards, high price but one worth paying in the view of everyone party to the agreement.
I voted for Brexit to remove a level of government, that was my reason for voting, nothing else
the irony being that brexit has created a level of red tape & government involvement much greater than there was before
thats the problem with scapegoating the EU for Westminsters failings; it was always going to end up exposing the likes of the DUP & the Tories !
withoit
Best spelling mistake in ages if not intentional. 😀
Best spelling mistake in ages if not intentional. 😀
Haha yea, not intentional, but def phonetical
Sounded right to me!
I’ve no problem with the Irish sea border and that was what prompted my post earlier.
I’d imagine you wouldn’t be so sanguine about it if your business was about to go bust as a direct result of it, as many are on both sides of the Irish Sea
All for no good reason
however as Binners was the one to ridicule me I asked him for a solution, for that specific issue.
The only workable solution was the whole UK remaining in the single market and customs union and not sticking a new and wholly unnecessary border in the Irish Sea
Anything other than that and you’re entering a whole world of utterly pointless and self-imposed pain.
Any ‘solution’ you come up with will only ever make things ever-so-slightly less shit. It was always going to be a car crash
But some of us have been pointing out the bleeding obvious for the last 5 years. It’s only with the truly hard-of-thinking where the reality hasn’t yet sunk in. The rest of us clocked it years ago, which is why we voted against it
This is it. This is what you voted for. So suck it up, buttercup.
There is no ‘solution’ to Brexit. There never was and there never will be.
It’s an act of monumental stupidity voted for by flag-waving idiots. You voted to make yourself poorer and to make your life more difficult, so own it. It’s on you
How do I own it Binners?
What does that actually mean?
Does it mean "shut up and go away"?
Does it mean “shut up and go away”?
No it means; pull on your big-boy trousers, accept that you (if you voted leave) made a mistake and work to put it right. The Leave people need to put it right, we may help if asked but we're not going to clean up your shit.
How do I own it Binners?
Accept the fact that this is what you voted for. And if you didn’t know this was what you voted for then you should have done your homework
The rest of us knew full well what we were voting against
This.
So, you broke it, you own it
Though there seems an awful lot of reluctance for any of the architects of this shitshow to own up to what they’ve done.
And just to reiterate: these aren’t ‘teething problems’. This is it. Welcome to the new reality that you voted for
hmm, I might get the hang of this eventually...🤦🏻♀️
Or not...
The Leave people need to put it right, we may help if asked but we’re not going to clean up your shit.
I think this is completely the wrong way to look at it. Brexit has happened and we are now out. The last thing we want is a brexiteer's brexit. It would be much better for remainers to hijack it and make it what we want, well not what we want because we'd rather be in, but if we are out it's better to steer it in a particular direction.
The last thing we want is a brexiteer’s brexit. It would be much better for remainers to hijack it and make it what we want, well not what we want because we’d rather be in, but if we are out it’s better to steer it in a particular direction.
Problem is, we already have the brexiteers Brexit...
Step in too early and we get the ‘stabbed in the back’ lie that worked out so well back in the thirties...
It would be much better for remainers to hijack it
Good luck with that.
It was always going to be remainers who had to clean up the mess.
Problem is, we already have the brexiteers Brexit…
We do indeed. We’ve ended up with the hardest of hard brexits, short of the catastrophe of ‘No Deal’
And the predicted results are all now becoming real
So * ‘em! The *s who brought us this can change their own sheets on the bed they just shat
On another note, I wonder what will happen to Channel 4's, A New Life in the Sun and A Place in the Sun?
Yep, agreed Binners. I’ll look after mine, grumble about what’s worse and never fail to point out to my leave chums that they got what they wanted. Strangely they all seem to have gone very quiet or in my father in law’s case admit that what he hoped for isn’t going to happen.
I voted for Brexit to remove a level of government
And I voted remain because I wanted to keep a level of government. Why did I want another layer of government? Because most of the continent had the SAME layer. That means that we couldn't compete with each other undercutting workers rights, environmental standards etc etc just to help our own economies at the cost of other things. The same reason that football matches have referees. Countries need to cooperate as allies whilst preserving high standards - it helps everyone and it helps the environment.
Brexit is about throwing all that out, largely so that the rich can exploit us and the natural world more. There's no other reason to want it. If you think otherwise you're a dreamer.
As an aside, you do realise the GFA involved the release of murderers from prison? Quite a reasonable reason to be against it BTW.
Is it?
How many prisoners getting an early release would you say is a "price worth paying" for absolute peace between two factions that had been blowing each other up for three decades? None? Your 'murderers' here were convicted for crimes that the GFA finally put an end to.
I voted for Brexit to remove a level of government, that was my reason for voting, nothing else.
Well, you got the opposite. So, uh, well done?
Are you still happy with your decision? Working out well for you is it, this removal of bureaucracy?
I don’t want to discuss that either as it has been discussed to death.
Of course you don't. I can't possibly imagine why.
On another note, I wonder what will happen to Channel 4’s, A New Life in the Sun and A Place in the Sun
It’ll have a more upmarket crowd 🙂
No ones stopping people with money retiring, Brexit just makes those 3rd country rules apply to usyou.
Probably end up a TOWIE crossover.
I also think a lot of the IT crowd will ship over after the Covid dust settles.
Non-lucrative visas are a thing that works well with WFH and there is a double taxation agreement between Spain an the U.K.
May as well WFH in a place with 9 months of summer and beaches an 28p cans of san mig.
I voted for Brexit to remove a level of government
with respect then, you've been had. The merest hint of research would've revealed to you that that would never possibly been the outcome.
I don’t want to discuss that
Seems to be the default position for most Brexiteers these days.
On another note, I wonder what will happen to Channel 4’s, A New Life in the Sun and A Place in the Sun?
A New Life in Hull
A place in the sun with no right to permanently reside or reciprocal health care
Yes I don't want to discuss it as I've already done it on this very thread, received the exact same answers and admitted I was wrong.
Is it?
How many prisoners getting an early release would you say is a “price worth paying” for absolute peace between two factions that had been blowing each other up for three decades? None? Your ‘murderers’ here were convicted for crimes that the GFA finally put an end to.
This came about from me explaining the position of the DUP, context lost as usual on this thread.
Are you saying the GFA has put an end to paramilitary violence and sectarian murder? You are wrong on that account.
Entirely likely. Because everyone trying to move goods will have gone bust by then.
Well it solves the politicians problem of bad PR so it’s a big win in their eyes, get it off the news cycle and the problems gone away.
I’m sure they’ll blame the companies for not getting the right colour pens in or not embracing the Brexit opportunity etc.
This came about from me explaining the position of the DUP, context lost as usual on this thread.
You are aware that almost all murderers are eventually released from prison? Some well before the life sentence imposed.
Justice is not vengeance and must be impartial to all citizens/subjects
Thanks for contributing dougiedog, we should stop ourselves from allowing our exasperation from being aimed at you personally. Sorry.
It's ok Kelvin, I'm only trying to play devils advocate but its hard to keep context on the thread because everyone jumps on the same point at the same time.
I've asked for my account to be deleted anyway, (not sure how that works) as I find replying to this thread is affecting my work and my life in general.
I'm a contrary person who likes to examine things from the sometimes unpopular side, it gets me in bother. However I am generally a pretty light hearted person, who's willing to be proved wrong (maybe that doesn't come across so well in written form).
Thanks for enlightening me everyone.
Dougie
Fair play to you Dougie
Sorry to hear it's affecting you. I think it feels for a lot of us like we're howling into the void at the moment
I’ve asked for my account to be deleted anyway
Sorry to hear that, slán.
You've tried to engage Dougie and that's better than many pro Brexit people who have gone very silent now, I don't think anyone would say it was a success but the loudest voices seem to be shirking away from taking any responsibility now.
I voted for Brexit to remove a level of government, that was my reason for voting, nothing else. I don’t want to discuss that either as it has been discussed to death.
FFS is that it?
Good at last though to see a another Leaver admit they didn't have a ****ing clue.
How about next time you're thinking of doing something you could just aim for something less harmful to the rest of us, maybe settle on getting rid of your parish council instead - as that'll get rid of a "layer of government"!
A new life in the sun will be replaced by "a new life at the Amazon warehouse" This will mainly involve people getting worked into an early grave, while the viewers, older retired people who voted for this say "it was much harder for us back in the day"
It was partly tougue in cheek as lots of my builder and Brexiter mates had not factored this into their retirement plans and are now complaining.
Still a plan of mine of course.
On another note, I wonder what will happen to Channel 4’s, A New Life in the Sun and A Place in the Sun?
It'll still be on but there will be 5 minutes of looking at property of 45 minutes of form filling, visas, customs checks, etc.
Surely 'A place in the sun filled uplands we were promised but actually buying a second hand tent and living on a now derelict industrial estate while fighting rats for the last banana in the country'
I’m a contrary person who likes to examine things from the sometimes unpopular side, it gets me in bother
I can be a bit like that. The problems begin when confusing the word ‘examine’ for the word ‘experiment’ or (worse still) ‘explode’, ie ‘what if I skip the ‘examine’ part and just press this button instead?’ Can’t be any worse than ‘not examining’, can it? Maybe someone else can ‘examine’, and I’ll just press stuff...
(For most of us) that 2016 contrarian/up-yours click-fest predictably translated as the remainder of our (and quite possibly our children’s) lives to now be spent chewing on the dried ‘jerky’ of those who voted ‘eat my shit’
At least we’re all* now holding noses and tying planks to our feet together? Could that be an upside? The great leveller? Further examination of history seems to show that this only heralds more upheaval and more violent ‘levelling’ to come. It normally has to get very bad indeed before we begin forming pacific unions. Almost as if there are historical precedents? 😬
*Excepting those who have some kind of failsafe financial safeguard and/or a ‘cheeky’ taste for distressed assets. If the latter, then enjoy the new old world of ambulance-chasing. Buy low, sell high, sit on it/let it, live high in a hot climate elsewhere. Time-tested. Live your life at an altitude beyond the stench of the wretched. Also, watch your new ‘friends’ like the hawks that they are.
I’ve asked for my account to be deleted anyway
I wouldn't be doing that, just lay off the threads that upset you for a bit. Can sometimes have positives as well.
Are you saying the GFA has put an end to paramilitary violence and sectarian murder? You are wrong on that account.
That's right, only last week I was watching the rioting in Belfast on TV and reading about the IRA bombing Manchester. If last week was the mid-1990s.
I’ve asked for my account to be deleted anyway, (not sure how that works)
There's an option in your account settings. It'd be a shame if you did though. It's good to hear different voices.
I’m a contrary person who likes to examine things from the sometimes unpopular side, it gets me in bother.
You're not 'in bother'. But if you're going to be contrary it shouldn't really come as a surprise that you get contrary right back.
too right - a paper that is no way soaraway enough.
Leavers also have to remember that they actually voted to rip something up and cause a huge change (which they were repeatedly told was for the worse for 99% of people). I can't see there being the same level of disbelieving anger if the result was the opposite.
That is the thing that has always made me utterly dumbfounded about Brexit. The information was there that it would be a *ing disaster for most people. And yet 'we' chose to do this.
Utterly *ing incredible. It still is, after nearly five years.
I find replying to this thread is affecting my work and my life in general.
Hence the reason I haven't posted much on here of late.
I've tried to see the justification for voting Leave. Be it petty vengeance of the "at least it will hurt others more than me" kind, the notion of 'sovereignty' or whatever. But whatever thought process I try to go down I end up either with a kind of nihilistic spite or just total misguided gullibility as the real root cause. And I can't justify either of those.
So I prefer simple bemused bafflement now. Combined with looking after me and mine.
Trying to fathom the logic behind the illogical is pointless.
I’ve tried to see the justification for voting Leave.
Now, that has been done to death.
If we take the gammons who voted to "send them all back where they came from" out of the equation, I think the reasoning behind your average joe voting leave is - was - largely ignorance. And before Daz gets his "calling leavers stupid" erection again, I'd say the same was true for many remain voters also. I heard shortly after the referendum, "I just didn't know so I voted leave because I thought more money to the NHS was a good idea." For a lot of people it was practically a coin-toss, or at least a one-issue decision. Has anyone ever asked a leaver why they voted as such and received a list? The referendum was too hasty, no-one (however they voted) had any time to think.
The narrative has changed though, and it's been retconned. The reasons we're hearing now, such as we're hearing any at all, are not the same reasons we were hearing four or five years ago.
And now we find ourselves in 2021, "ignorance" no longer washes as an excuse. They've had five bloody years to learn something.
The information was there that it would be a ****ing disaster for most people.
Ah, but that was "project fear," remember. And we'd had enough of experts, hadn't we. Heaven forfend that we might want to listen to someone who actually knows what they're talking about.
The concept of "project fear" really was an absolute masterstroke by Leave. It's what won them the referendum IMHO. You can just dismiss anything you don't like the sound of without requiring any further argument. And here we are today, having had enough of experts, the Idiocracy prevailed. It'd almost be funny if it wasn't so predictably depressing.
Still. Iconic blue passports.
That we can't $%^&ing go anywhere with.
But even actually actively voting to change anything is most likely a bad idea if you haven't got the first idea about it.
The world exists as it does for a reason - largely arrived-at solutions that drive consensus that drive policies that drive laws. So opting for 'any change' versus stability, in the absence of any information or brain cells, does not make sense.
Even if the bloke who nearly killed himself cementing his head into a microwave had to go to the bother of actually doing it. In the absence of any prior knowledge that cementing your head into a microwave might be a bad idea, the most logical answer is to not go out of your way to try.
And, to be clear, this is a kind of 'thought' experiment on my part. There is ample evidence that cementing your head into a microwave is a bad idea. Just like there was plenty of evidence (detailed pamphlet through the door anyone?) that voting Leave was a really stupid thing to do.
Unfathomable, and I've stopped trying. It is enough to drive a sane person around the twist.
And if your attitude to voting on important issues is based on the toss of a coin then you have no business voting on those issues. Stick to Britain's Got Talent.
The concept of “project fear” really was an absolute masterstroke by Leave. It’s what won them the referendum IMHO. You can just dismiss anything you don’t like the sound of without requiring any further argument.
I give you, in different clothes, the medieval argument against anything different/disliked/scary - "WITCHCRAFT!"
It wasn't a masterstroke. Quite the opposite. The remain camp was damn foolish for assuming that people would use their head.
The remain camp was damn foolish for assuming that people would use their head.
Yes, but the con artists yelled 'PATRONISING METROPOLITAN ELITE' every time a remain voice asked people to 'think'.
I got into a spat with cinnamon girl a long time ago about all this. The argument itself was sparked by a pretty out of order comment I made, so was mostly my fault.
But my argument back to her was to look at the people you find yourself agreeing with. Who looks at Nigel Farage and thinks "I trust him"? Who looks at Alexander Boris De Pfeffel Johnson and sees him as a man of the people and someone you would trust? Who thinks about the Britain First nazis and doesn't think "it might not be a good thing to be on the same side as these people"?
If nothing else, look at the company you are in.
That's it from me again. I'm not going back down the spiral of this thread!
Has anyone ever asked a leaver why they voted as such and received a list?
Yes, my favourite was "too many cars on the Stratford road" which on further questioning as to how the EU was responible for that led to "foreigners". The argument that the extra traffic might be down to people such as themselves visiting the huge retail park that has developed fell on deaf ears.
"I give you, in different clothes, the medieval argument against anything different/disliked/scary – “WITCHCRAFT!”"
This is quite appropriate. What we are seeing both here and over the pond is the end of the age of reason. We have regressed to a state of medieval superstition, a world of pitchforks and ducking stools.
A few months back I had a look at the first few pages of the original Brexit thread and it was interesting to see how it started as a reasoned and measured debate. That didn't last long, though I don't put that down to forum members behaviour. What rapidly became apparent was that the Leave contingent rallied around a pack of lies draped in naked racism and xenophobia. It very quickly became nothing to do with Europe and all about how the UK could be divided and destroyed in order to pay a dividend for the tiny few.
Any reasoned discussion became impossible. Many of us realised the nation was facing some sort of coup and that evil forces were looking to profit from disorder. I myself had many reservations about how the EU was run and was not a supporter of the European Parliament elections, (minority effect, look it up of you don't get it). However the greater threat posed by leave and the exponentially negative effect it would have on the (soon to be ex) United kingdom far outweighed any of my reservations. It quickly became apparent that the true patriots were on the remain side.
Oh, and I'm glad Dougie is still posting.
Dannyh makes a good point, if you're agreeing with Farage and Mogg then you've generally taken a very wrong turn somewhere.
A few months back I had a look at the first few pages of the original Brexit thread and it was interesting to see how it started as a reasoned and measured debate. That didn’t last long, though I don’t put that down to forum members behaviour. What rapidly became apparent was that the Leave contingent rallied around a pack of lies draped in naked racism and xenophobia.
As one of the few posters who posted on the old thread in its early days and is still occasionally posting, this is complete bollocks.
I’ve asked for my account to be deleted anyway, (not sure how that works) as I find replying to this thread is affecting my work and my life in general.
Good for you, I am sure it will be beneficial, but I wouldn't worry about what it written on this thread, obviously there is a lot of obnoxious and unpleasant stuff, but most of the rest is ill informed drivel,
That Hyde piece, as ever, is on the money. And a reminder that the “project fear”, “stop talking your country down”, “think positively”, “cake tomorrow” approach wasn’t just a ruse to win in 2016, but how we are now governed.
“There is no border in the Irish Sea.”
“There and no non-tariff barriers.”
————— ————— —————
“Reject the evidence of your eyes and ears.”