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Dougiedogg - thats sheer nonsense. The EU are respecting the GFA by ensuing no hard border on the island of ireland and in doing so they have bent their rules badly
Dougiedogg – thats sheer nonsense.
Sorry TJ its not, thats why the likes of Paisley and Sammy Wilson were so angry in parliament. The GFA is not just about the rights of irish to be irish.
It's a fudge on both sides... but, importantly... the EU did not boot us out of the Single Market and Customs Union... we have made those fudges necessary... it is our doing.
There is no Brexit arrangement that can ensure the same level of all Island of Ireland cooperation and all UK cooperation. We are putting in new borders and divisions. With Britain not in the Customs Union and Single Market, this was always going to be the case. Any fudge will have some of the new divisions in the Irish sea, and some on the island itself… but it can’t do away with them entirely… we are dividing Great Britain from the EU… we are… the deficits of any fudge is down to our desire to divide ourselves from everyone else. NI isn’t coming entirely with us on that journey… even Johnson and Gove have realised that, with the arrangements that they negotiated and signed up to… despite claiming otherwise so many times.
I agree, but to say that the EU are not in some way ignoring certain terms of the GFA in order to make it work is wrong. N.I is caught between the interests of both.
I agree, but to say that the EU are not in some way ignoring certain terms of the GFA in order to make it work is wrong. N.I is caught between the interests of both.
Are you saying that you want a hard border with the EU irrelevant of the damage to NI?
Are you saying that you want a hard border with the EU irrelevant of the damage to NI?
No.
This line of discussion started with me replying to a post about Biden. Please read what I've said it in that context.
So you’d vote based on what they promised in a campaign, rather than based on how they govern once they are in office? To be fair, millions do exactly this
No, it would be a combination of their stated aims and how they had done in the previous term.
If, in 4 years time, I'm doing ok by government policy I would consider voting for them over a party who wanted to tax me to benefit others.
Don't know if it was talked about before but Radio 4s statistics program More or Less talked about fishing quota claims by Gove and Penny Mordaunt. Starts about 22 mins.
This line of discussion started with me replying to a post about Biden. Please read what I’ve said it in that context.
It might have done, but now I've no idea what you think is best for Northern Ireland - which option is it; current solution or hard border?
dazh - have you thought about offering your '...northumbrian post-industrial shithole ride' route to Saddle Skedaddle?
They could offer it as an optional extension to their C2C when riders get to Tynemouth or a 'reality check' diversion on their Coast & Castles route; Coast, Castles and Shitholes - could become their new best seller!
This line of discussion started with me replying to a post about Biden. Please read what I’ve said it in that context
Dougie, that was my post about a UK-US trade deal and I was referring specifically to johnson have no credibility in Biden's eyes; one example I quoted to support that was johnson's willingness to tear up the GFA for political gain.
There was no reference to the EU's attitude to the GFA; introducing that is something of a sideshow to considerations about the possibility of a US-UK trade deal.
Dougiedogg
Please let us know which bit of the GFA do you think the EU is in breach of. specifically.
I would consider voting for them over a party who wanted to tax me to benefit others
What if they wanted to tax you to benefit you and your family?
What if they wanted to tax you to benefit you and your family?
Then I would consider it.
dangerousbeans
If, in 4 years time, I’m doing ok by government policy I would consider voting for them over a party who wanted to tax me to benefit others.
Wow, you live in a different reality to me. I'm not having a go at you mate, my reality might be the "wrong" one... But I can say right now I won't be voting Tory 4 years hence.
The handling of the pandemic, Brexit, cronyism (fraud!).
No thank you!
As for individuals being taxed to help society as a whole I see that a a positive, no, an absolute necessity in a caring society that values people and organisations such as the NHS.
I couldn't give a fig about aircraft carriers or nukes. Give me a caring society perpetuated by government policy instead.
If, in 4 years time, I’m doing ok by government policy I would consider voting for them over a party who wanted to tax me to benefit others.
Whereas I will vote for a party that believes in the betterment of all and would happily pay more tax to do so. Not least from enlightened self interest. a more equal society is happier and has less crime.
Plus I loathe seeing the deliberate poverty inflicted on people by tories
As previously stated I always believed in redistribution of wealth via taxation for the betterment of society.
But Brexit and the people who voted for it have highlighted that I'm an idiot who they'll gladly take for a ride just out of spite.
I have to ask myself do I really want to impoverish myself to any extent on their behalf.
Many of us that are from the 9 counties of NI have been SCREAMING since the beginning of this brexit nonsense that the GFA was incompatible with brexit. We've been consistently ignored or dismissed. Its not even a sectarian issue either. Nationalists wont care for a land border, Unionists wont care for a sea border. Everyone loses.
Everyone loses.
We’ve binned a whole series of compromises, on the promise that we can replace them with something that benefits some people more. But, as the something was never defined, many people were successfully led to believe that the some people included them. Most, the vast majority, will be severely disappointed when they get to properly see what the replacement means for them. Nearly, but not quite everyone.
dakuan - I think you are right. The GFA was envisaged within the EU arrangements, the UK being one of the foremost and leading members of the EU at the time. No one contemplated the UK being stupid enough to throw away all the advantages they had, but they did.
Brexit trashed the GFA. The EU are merely trying to stick back together that neutral ground - a bit like when you get the superglue out and try to stick that priceless porcelain back together. Maybe, you liked it, maybe you didn’t, but the cracks are going to show either way.
On top of that, it was clear the whole time that the border would fall down the sea as the Americans weren't going to have the land border and neither the Brits or the Irish/EU were going to have Antrim restarting the family business (smuggling). The DUP's stupidity over making that happen was incredible but what can you expect from young earth creationists.
That stupidly was mirrored by the ignorance of my English family who didn't even realise that there even was a land border with the EU. By a curious turn of fate, those people are also young earth creationists.
Blessed are the cheesemakers…
To paraphrase..
“It’s as if someone forgot to negotiate this part of the deal, they forgot that there needed to be an exemption or allowance for the direct consumer sales."
Just read that article, they were looking to expand their business and planned to invest up to £1m which would have meant employing a further 20 people. Now they are considering opening a distribution centre in France instead.
Another link on the page sends you to this linky
Almost like the government don't give a s...
Blessed are the cheesemakers…
This may be controversial but brexit is working out quite nicely for we vegans. Fishermen, livestock farmers, and now the cheese makers all negatively impacted. I'm beginning to think it's all an elaborate masterplan by Carrie Symonds 🙂
On Erasmus - it looks like there are efforts going on to try to get Scotland access again. dunno how realistic but its being looked at. 140 MEPs pushing for it
People who go to uni getting a chance to be part of Europe? That’ll annoy some of the who do you think you are learning to spell types dazh and oldmanmtb were describing.
Interesting TJ. Getting Scottish students access to Erasmus is achievable, given the funds… (see NI students having access paid for by the Irish government)… what will be interesting is reciprocation… is there a way that Scotland’s gov can achieve that for students from abroad looking to spend time in Scotland? I don’t think there is. I’d love to be wrong.
Academic visas used to be pretty straightforward I thought. Look at the number of non-EU students in UK universities.
Yes, but the UK gov controls those, not the Scottish gov.
They will never know IGM... not unless me Auntie Sandra posts it on her facebook page.
If NI gets it self sorted it could create something special. However it will take a Good Friday Agreement level of effort,compromise and commitment to build it.
dangerousbeans
If, in 4 years time, I’m doing ok by government policy I would consider voting for them over a party who wanted to tax me to benefit others.
This may not be germane to this discussion, but did anyone find themselves genuinely worse off the last time Labour were in government? I think I am poorer now than I was in, say, 2005, and I certainly seem to be giving more to charity to cover things like local food poverty.
I am still comfortable however, I feel that with a fairer tax system (and easier access to a major export market on our doorstep) I and many others will be more prosperous, and the nation will have more opportunities for people to grow richer.
Due to the new regulations (and the lack of planning) my OHs essential medical equipment (via NHS but from Germany) is now held at customs because it contains hazardous goods...a bottle of alcohol gel is in the box. There is no system in place to manage this.
Completely foreseeable, and puts her at risk. Thanks BoJo, you lying moron.
igm
Full MemberAcademic visas used to be pretty straightforward I thought. Look at the number of non-EU students in UK universities.
Theresa May's time as home secretary let to constant worsening of this- much of it obviously just designed as obstruction and to increase costs without any benefit. Financial guarantees and proof of financial means were made not only harder but also more confusing and more likely to be rejected on technicalities (we had one student rejected because she'd moved money from her own savings account, to her own current account, and was told "it had to be in your account for 30 days"). The number of english language qualifications accepted was slashed (using the false excuse of reducing fraud) which meant that our Brazilian students were having to travel from all over the country to sao paulo, with waiting lists months long, as it was literally the only testing centre they could use. The ATAS scheme's support staff were cut which directly meant that certificates regularly took too long to be processed causing students to miss key dates. Every cost increased, of course, and every turnaround time increased, and yet deadlines got tighter (there were some processes which by design made it commonplace that a student applying on the very first day possible, doing everything as fast as possible, would not get their visa in place by the date it was required). No allowance or measures were ever put in place for the slightly earlier starts of term in Scotland. And the idea of "leave to return" was rolled out widely- this meant that if you were already in the UK on one type of visa, even a student visitor visa, you would often have to return to your home country to get a new student visa, purely to add costs and inconvenience. Oh you're from Syria and your country no longer has a government and your town is a warzone? Too bad, go home to apply for your visa.
And the tier 4 rules changed so regularly and so confusingly that even the UKVI had no idea what their own rules were from day to day (we had a personal contact at the UKVI, a service we had to pay for, and after one change our guy phoned up and said "this new rule is unclear, we think it should be interpreted this way, is that correct"? She said, "That seems reasonable". He said "Is it correct?" She said yeah, could well be, I can't fault your logic" He said "So if we go forward on this basis, and the home office decides to enforce another interpretation, will that be OK" "Oh, no, you'll be fined and your highly trusted sponsor status will be at risk". So we literally rejected students who we could probably have accepted, because the UK government refused to tell us what their own rules meant, but told us we would be punished for if we broke them.
Just seen that a Brexity former colleague of mine that I unfriended due to her borderline racist posting has got her settled status sorted out.
Even by Brexit standards, that's messing my head up.
You couldn't make it up part 94!
British businesses that export to the continent are being encouraged by government trade advisers to set up separate companies inside the EU in order to get around extra charges, paperwork and taxes resulting from Brexit, the Observer can reveal.
Too angry about this particular bit of bait and switch to say anything useful…
https://twitter.com/ottocrat/status/1353034437148221440?s=21
Mate of mine works on equipment used to treat cancer patients. Necessary spare parts stuck in the Netherlands I'm told. Been necessary for a week. Normally arrived next day. Oh well. They're only cancer patients I suppose. Sovereignty.
It's kicking off on a FB forum linked to a UK cycle clothing company, as EU based expat customers have suddenly discovered it's not as easy as it was....
Are these the same bananas?
Border Force officers seize almost a tonne of cocaine worth £76m hidden among bananas.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/cocaine-bananas-southampton-border-force-b1791419.html
The ones from South America do not fall foul of our lies and deceits as regards African states, no.
The bananas are from Ghana - we could have just rolled over the EU / Ghana deal but tried to force more out of them so no deal has been reached From what I remember from what I read
You couldn’t make it up part 94!
British businesses that export to the continent are being encouraged by government trade advisers to set up separate companies inside the EU in order to get around extra charges, paperwork and taxes resulting from Brexit, the Observer can reveal.
Andrew the owner of Horizon that's featured in that article is an acquaintance of mine. The Tories haven't been the party of business for a while, at least brexit should shatter any remaining illusions.
I'm sure the sunlit uplands must be just over the next hill. The unicorns will pull us up there if we believe a bit harder.
From that ‘punishingly steep’ article linked earlier:
He too has decided to set up a new company in the Netherlands, for the same reasons. “When the government said it had secured free trade it was obvious it was nothing of the sort,” says Betts.
VAT problems, new charges on moving goods and more bureaucracy all added up to an “administrative nightmare” which left him with no choice. The only way to avoid the Brexit barriers was to operate inside them, to move back into the single market. “If you don’t, you are screwed in so many ways,” he says.
Betts also talked to trade advisers from the Department for International Trade, who gave the same advice as they gave to Moss. “The adviser I spoke to said it was a can of worms, and he thought that would be the best move,” says Betts.
Who would’ve thought it, eh? There were real and tangible benefits from remaining in the single market!
Now British jobs will go to the EU (and the companies will be less competitive due to additional bureaucracy and costs).
Maybe EU countries will set up similar companies in the UK, but the gain for them is (obviously) less.
For instance, can’t see the likes of the German bike companies replicating warehouse and distribution for cycle parts so either it’s gets more expensive and takes longer/less choice or they give up on the UK as too much hassle...
The only way to avoid the Brexit barriers was to operate inside them, to move back into the single market.
I've got an idea. Rather than thousands of small companies all moving things to the EU, setting up satellite offices etc, what if we brought all the functionality of the single market to the UK by becoming part of this union?
It's a winner all round. Be like a union of European businesses and interests, all working together. Could call it the European Union.
I'll take my idea to the Daily Mail immediately.
I’ll take my idea to the Daily Mail immediately.
Nah, it would never be acceptable to the 51% of the population who believe in the advanced economic theory sprouted by the DM.
My company opened an office in Dublin a couple of years ago in anticipation of all this. Over the summer the London office was closed (120 jobs) and the Dublin office is now the head office. Obviously I can't go and work there now without a visa. Nor can I work for other companies like Patagonia - EU applicants only. Cheers Brexiters! Let's not forget Brandon Lewis's boast that Northern Ireland now enjoys the competitive advantage of being in the EU and the UK.
I think you can work in Dublin without a visa, it’s one of the reasons to relocate HQs to there rather than other EU centres.
EDIT: your company might want staff with EU passports though, of course.
I’m sure the sunlit uplands must be just over the next hill. The unicorns will pull us up there if we believe a bit harder.
Are the unicorns being led by the grown-ups?
The Tories haven’t been the party of business for a while
They are the party of rapacious disaster capitalists and tax avoiders. They now represent the interests of those people exclusively. I'm just amazed that there are still people who still won't accept that glaringly obvious fact.
A mate's wife works for the Department for International Trade and has confirmed that the advice they are giving exporters are to relocate their businesses to the EU
Just have a think about that for a minute. The British government is telling UK businesses to relocate their business out of the country, with the loss of jobs and tax revenue that that entails.
A good article by Andrew Rawnsley on the madness of it all
The bill for Boris Johnson’s Brexit is coming in and it’s punishingly steep
There you have it. The utter insanity of Brexit in a nutshell
@tjagain - it has now made its way to the BBC news site but it will quickly drop off and be forgotten.
This should be front page news of all newspapers, it infuriates me that no-one is skinned for it.
The Brexit promoting MPs should be booted out for the damage they have inflicted on this country.
It is tragic that so many people swallowed the bullshit and didn't research what might happen if we left the EU.
Been thinking about this (i know) and if you stand back a bit from the EU trade deal and analyse some of the stuff that went wrong got forgotten about etc a lot of it is cultural limitations and what it means to the Tories...
Music Gigs etc not a big thing in the middle class shires.
Fishing a useful soundbite but its not fly fishing is it.
Proper SMEs no cash in them
Northern Ireland no need to expand on that
Makes you think
An example of what happens when amateurs come up against professionals.
One side is fully resourced with people who understand the subject, have prepared thoroughly from the start, can fully assess the implications of any decision - and wrote the rule book.
The other side have very limited expertise, have failed to prepare (= preparing to fail), are unable to accurately assess the implications of any decision, have a misplaced innate belief in their perceived superiority/intelligence/capability.
When will johnson and his hapless stooges openly recognise they have delivered a huge shit sandwich to the UK? It's brexit-free, UK shit - but it's still shit.
Yes, that's wishful thinking on my part.
It is tragic that so many people swallowed the bullshit and didn’t research what might happen if we left the EU.
It didn't really take research, it just required putting yourself in the EU leaders' shoes and thinking "what would I do?". I spent much of my time reading the original Brexit thread knowing what I would do and treading carefully on STW. The STW Brexiters were incapable of seeing it from the other side:
Edukator
Free Member“Bespoke deal”. You’ll get the dregs you’re given.
The UK has made it clear that the plan is to indulge in fiscal and social dumping to be more competitive. I hope the 27 will negotiate a deal on my behalf that negates that.
Posted 3 years ago
teamhurtmore
Free MemberNo they havent – but dont let that stop you making things up. That was merely posed as one outcome if sensible negotiations failed. They wont. people are not THAT stupid.
Posted 3 years ago
It turned out people negotiating on behalf of the UK were THAT stupid. And Michel Barnier tied them up in knots.
Whatever happened to THM - I'd be interested in his views...
In related news - former Brexit MEP dies in accident at his home in the Bahamas https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-55788542
It would be amusing to hear Jamby's views too. He was right about no tarifs on cras (I agreed with him). But apart from that I can't think of many things he was right about. Those "grown ups" behind the scenes were just figments of his imagination, it was all left to the babies trhowing their toys out of the pram.
Sadly they're probably both laughing all the way to the bank with shiney new EU passports in their pockets.
what it means to the Tories…
Aye. People dribble on about echo chambers, but we are ruled by one.
I will confess that during my 4 minute walk to the polling station in June 2016 I became intensely irritated at Cameron's arrogance and a bunch of other things. I am vaguely Euro-sceptic and saw upsides in a friendly very soft Brexit that formalised our current non-Euro (currency) status and e.g. gave room to modernise farm subsidies.. but I did plan to vote remain. Then at the booth I thought **** it and voted leave. I did not envisage the current situation or even Cameron mincing off when he lost the bet. Sorry. People said they'll never forgive leave-voters, that's ok. For any STWer who knows me in real life I hope we can stay friends. The end.
Twowheels - thanks for posting that. But I'd like to dig into something a bit more:
I did not envisage the current situation
The unfolding situation was predicted by the remain campaign, you didn't have to envisage it. Presumably some part of your brain dismissed it as part of the general news/politics noise? Which is understandable because there was a lot of noise and there were just as many people telling us it was going to be brilliant. Just goes to show that we all hear what we want to hear. I'm sure part of the reason I believed the remain campaign was because I'm pro-EU at a conceptual level. I do however know of someone who is anti-EU but voted remain on pragmatic terms because he understood the implications.
The other side have very limited expertise
If you mean the UK, or even just the UK civil service… we had plenty of expertise, it was just dismissed, sidelined and neutered.
People said they’ll never forgive leave-voters, that’s ok.
Not me. I have family and friends that voted Leave, and I’ve never held their 2016 decision against them… not the day after the vote, not when the leading politicians in both main parties ruled out a compromise that could maintain many of our freedoms and keep trade flowing, not when those urging caution and compromise were branded as undemocratic unpatriotic enemies of the people, not when pulling out of schemes like Erasmus+ went from unlikely to inevitable… I still blame the self seeking liars of the campaigns, those in the media that failed to expose them, and those that even now, when the outcomes are becoming clearer and clearer to all, ask us to accept their lies as truth… often giving as a reason for doing so that so many of the public feel put upon when the lies are pointed out to them.
AD : In related news – former Brexit MEP dies in accident at his home in the Bahamas
Yeah I read that earlier...zero ****s given.
thought * it and voted leave
, "* em", "I *in hate Poles", "We'll be all *in right" and "We're one of the 7 - 8 richest countries in the world, they need us" pretty well sums up the words of 80% of the Brexiteers I know.
As for the response to "Hold on a minute, this is the biggest thing the UK has voted on in 50 years, remember the 70's, there is huge uncertainty, risks we don't understand, we get it wrong and our kids future ...."
I totally understood the intensity of the dislike of Osborne et al, zero hours contracts, the upset with perceived Brussels bureaucracy, profligacy, etc.. but at that point in time the referendum was the weapon they had, so they used it.
I have no interest either in or saying 'warned you so' to the Brexiteers now wringing their hands and whining "I didn't realise", "It's not what they promised us", because it gets us nowhere.
It's happened, it's early days, so it is grist to the mill and all we can do is make the best of it as I doubt the EU will have the UK back in my lifetime, for sure with the deal we gave up.
As for the Scot who voted Brexit to get independence, he's looking odds on to get it within 10 years.
@twowheels - don't be so hard on yourself. At least you have admitted your decision may have been the wrong one in hindsight, something an awful lot of Leave voters refuse to do.
The unfolding situation was predicted by the remain campaign, you didn’t have to envisage it. Presumably some part of your brain dismissed it as part of the general news/politics noise?
We have to remember what it was like back during the campaigning before the vote. Boris and Farage were absolutely hogging the mainstream media with their bus, 3-word slogans and keeping things very simple. The Remain camp had very little chance of getting the nuances across to huge swathes of the electorate when bombarded with this noise. You had to really go looking for the details behind the Remain arguments as every time it was tried to be explained on the news or a daytime TV show it was never given enough time or depth to sink in. Plus the whole 'Project Fear' defence was, while utter bollocks, very effective. I've mentioned on here before that I had doubts in the days before the vote as pretty much everyone I worked with was a vehement Leave voter and I was worrying that I was the one in the wrong. It was only reminding myself of the fact that all of the trail centres, major road projects, lots of enterprise zones and investment in refurbishing town centres here in Wales was majorly supported by the EU Redevelopment Funds and there was no way I trusted the people in Westminster to match or exceed that funding.
If you had no real interest in politics or the nuances of business back then, which most people don't, then it was very easy to not hear the Remain argument and be swept along in the Leave campaign's momentum.
If you mean the UK, or even just the UK civil service… we had plenty of expertise, it was just dismissed, sidelined and neutered.
In negotiating trade deals? No, the UK didn't have the required expertise.
Since joining the EU on Jan 1 1973 the UK have benefitted from trade deals negotiated by the EU; any expertise the UK had at that date has long disappeared.
There was no perceived need for the UK to retain any skilled trade negotiators as deals were done on a team basis; since the 2016 referendum there should have been an acute awareness that the UK did not have the requisite experience and there was an urgent and immediate need to address that huge skills gap.
It was ignored with all too predictable consequences.
I was thinking in particular of Ivan Rogers.
Ivan Rogers?
A lone voice in the wilderness attempting to explain to those who either couldn't understand or didn't want to.
In related news – former Brexit MEP dies in accident at his home in the Bahamas
54, crumbs that young; poor family.
Not a lone voice, plenty of people at the FCO were giving similar advice, with the experience and knowledge to know just how the EU works, how they do deals, and the decisions the UK needed to make (but avoided) before attempting a deal. I know someone who was a permanent representative before he came back to London to help after the vote. Don’t forget we don’t get to hear what active civil servants are staying to ministers at all… only what a few retired civil servants say after they have moved on… most say little publicly, even then.
54, crumbs that young; poor family.
I'll save my grief for a mate (ardent remainer btw) who mortgaged his house two years ago on the promise of getting a free trade deal/single market inclusion so he bought a small fishing/prawn boat, 85% of his catch used to end up in restaurants in Spain within 24 hrs of being landed, not any more thanks to ****s like that.
I just don't/will not suffer utter elitists who offshore their wealth from UK taxes yet campaigned/voted for Brexit whilst lying to the somewhat ignorant and trusting populace of this country with no recourse whilst promising milk & honey for all once our sovereignty is free from the shackles of EU oppression.
Thing is there were three chances to vote remain. One referendum (which wasn't binding) and two general elections (which were binding). The Lib-Dems and SNP were the obvious remain vote and look how they scored. Scotland is firmly remain but in the rest of the UK people had so little concern for staying in Europe they voted for two different views of Brexit "get brexit done even if it's a shit deal" and "Lexit respect the vote" (epitomised by Dazh).
The people who voted leave and 2 x Tory are no longer in my address book.
Those who voted remain and 2 x Lib Dem or SNP I congratulate.
The other combinations aren't quite as committed to Europe as they might themselves think. Fortunately I haven't met anyone who voted Tory and out in three years.
No need to take it out on repentants such as twowheels or others who have expressed regret. However when one of Farage's faithful die in their tax haven... .
I'm still waiting, in vain, for the grown ups to appear and say 'right you had a go but you're not good at this so here's what we're going to do'. Telegraph blaming Merkel for Brexit now.......
Why are they “blaming” anyone for something they espoused and welcomed? If it’s down to her, why aren’t they “thanking” her?
Why are they “blaming” anyone for something they espoused and welcomed? If it’s down to her, why aren’t they “thanking” her?
Because we're now at the final line of the Brexit saga:
Brexit will be fantastic, there are no downsides only considerable upsides
Brexit will be pretty good
Brexit will be OK
Brexit will not be worse than being in the EU
Brexit will be worse in the short term but a sacrifice worth making for the long term gains
Brexit will be worse but we knew that
Brexit is a disaster but you voted for it
Brexit is someone else's fault
There is of course the potential to add many more lines to the ongoing ****up, it's the gift that keeps on giving.
Major step changes in Nation States are rarley driven by facts or practicalities see War, Revolution, Dictators,
There is a reason why most successful businesses are run by a board and a management team.....
@edukator - you know with the two party first past the post system that really isn't true, Mays election really wasn't an affirmation of the referendum result and created chaos that no one wanted, even with Boris's election more people voted for Labour & libdem than the conservatives. Part of me believes that the referendum was about people having a vote that actually counted, rather than being a "waste of effort" in constituencies where nothing but a major swing would effect the result. I know a few people who voted for brexit, that's their choice I wouldn't be as childish as to delete them from my address book.
Thing is there were three chances to vote remain. One referendum (which wasn’t binding) and two general elections (which were binding).
Politics doesn't work like that Ed, especially not UK politics. If you want to the elections as simple systems (which they're not) then it's easy to see that as political parties run on a range of policies and values which cannot be separated, even a rational remain voter could end up voting for a non-remain party. I did.
In Engerland at the last general election there was only one explicitly pro-remain party you could vote for, and that was led by an apparently demented primary school teacher and would have been a completely wasted vote.
Hence we ended up having the 'fact' thrown back at us by the Brexiteer headbangers that most people voted for a party that was 'pro-Brexit'
And that just shows you how unfit for the 21st century our archaic FPTP electoral system is
Hence we ended up having the ‘fact’ thrown back at us by the Brexiteer headbangers that most people voted for a party that was ‘pro-Brexit’
Because it's true. There were alternatives but people dismissed them as for example "demented priamry school teacher" which compared with how you could describe th eother candidates is frankly flattering. Voters got caught up in the not wasting your vote rubbish because as we discussed at the time, people need to vote with their convictions and not tactically because given the that one vote counts for nothing voting tactically is stupid. Always vote for the person/party you would like to win, otherwise they have no chance and you'll get something you didn't want but voted for - a bit like Briexit for many it would appear.
The FPTP system isn't ideal but it's the way people use it that's the problem.
There are flaws in every system, my perfect system would be a direct presidential election using the French system of rounds and a parliament elected in exactly the same way as the European parliament with its proportional representation. If you want that, never vote Labour or Tory.