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another example of taking back co trial. What is the point of MPs if they refuse the opportunity to scrutinise?
Never mind, the farmers with their fresh beef and lamb will be looking forward to getting their exports ready…
I suppose we should be glad of reductions in live animal exports? But have to wonder how many lambs will just be shot and used as hunt food. What is the point if there is no market.
Surely you've all just missed the Brexit Dividend!
All those Northern Ireland based orchestra's will be doing top business touring the EU.
With regards to the arts and bands touring, a representative from the music industry was on five live last week
He said that having read all the new rules that unless you’re as big as Coldplay then touring in Europe is now completely untenable. It’s a total non-starter. There’s no way any band could cover their costs with all the massive amount of paperwork and custom checks and everything involved.
Because the EU offered exemptions which were refused by the government, I honestly think that it’s another part of the ongoing Tory culture war.
What little will be left of ‘The Arts’ after being cut adrift by the government during Covid, will be finished off by the new post-Brexit reality
It’s visible and understandable… the end of gigging tours around Europe that is… so people are talking about it. Just about every sector in Britain is also hit, but in ways that are harder to explain to the public… the pennies will drop over the next few years… with “get over it” ringing in the ears of people struggling just to keep their careers and businesses going.
Liar, liar...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55725720
kwarteng wasting no time; what a lying duplicitous arse - but we knew that.
^^Yeah, just read that.
I suspect the EU are less than surprised. I can't see us lasting a year without the EU having to hit us with tariffs etc due to us tearing up "the deal" before the ink is even dry. They know this lot just can't help but lie.
The Tories don't waste any time with stuff like this do they unlike decisive action on lockdown etc?
During a horrific pandemic the first thing the government absolutely should be doing is reviewing/ changing Labour regulations.😕
Not much on their plate at the moment I suppose.
It's all going going DH at an alarming rate
https://twitter.com/Joe_Mayes/status/1351646007810019328?s=20
I've learned to look at the headline catch phrase and understand it as the opposite
Priti Patel said the Brixit deal "will make UK safer" which was obviously bollocks given the loss of accesse to systems and organisation.
Kwarteng says "We want to protect and enhance workers’ rights going forward, not row back on them" when the Eurpean media were reporting plans to row back last week which only now reach the BBC.
As for food standards: Defra Secretary Theresa Villiers has said that chlorinated chicken and hormone treated beef would not be imported into the UK after Brexit.
Wait for it.
Nice interview on R4 this morning with aberdonian fish rep. It was going so well he had my sympathy until he was asked about how he felt about his Brexit vote now. Suddenly it's not Brexit causing the fish export problems it's..........
During a horrific pandemic the first thing the government absolutely should be doing is reviewing/ changing Labour regulations.😕
I’d keep an eye on health and safety regs,I think the ‘Alf and safety gorn mad’ mob will be happy.
I’ve started reading the Brexit handbook doesn’t take em long to complain about it.
Our kids generation won’t be enjoying payed holidays, maternity pay, sick pay, employers pension contributions, minimum wage or a limit on working hours. This lot are literally chomping at the bit to get rid of the lot.
To be fair, we had worker rights before the EU and we don't need the EU to maintain them.
Perhaps an up side to Brexit might be the re-emergence of the trades union movement as a positive force in the UK. But everyone thinks unions are crap because "winter of discontent" or something, so perhaps not. (Unions - Possibly the Tories' greatest propaganda victory?)
To be fair, we had worker rights before the EU and we don’t need the EU to maintain them
We don't. However having a wider group of countries and politicians to prioritise rights over profit has worked well. I'm not so sure the current Tory government has the same motivations.
Nice interview on R4 this morning with aberdonian fish rep. It was going so well he had my sympathy until he was asked about how he felt about his Brexit vote now. Suddenly it’s not Brexit causing the fish export problems it’s……….
Aye, I heard that too. His reaction to being asked how he felt about his vote for Brexit went now he is suffering the consequences was quite amusing. The presenter pretty much said you've made your bed now lay in it.
To be fair, we had worker rights before the EU and we don’t need the EU to maintain them
They were much lower before the WTD. Thats a simple fact. A year working to qualify for any paid leave was common. We have lower protections from dismissal and redundancy than the eu norm. we had less paid holidays, no protection from being forced to work unsocial hours.
we don’t need the EU to maintain them
Good luck with that.
To be fair, we had worker rights before the EU and we don’t need the EU to maintain them
Unfortunately, the business secretary was one of the authors, along with 4 other members of the present cabinet, of Brittania Unchained, in which they stated
The British are among the worst idlers in the world. We work among the lowest hours, we retire early and our productivity is poor. Whereas Indian children aspire to be doctors or businessmen, the British are more interested in football and pop music.
Too many people in Britain prefer a lie-in to hard work
We must stop bailing out the reckless, avoiding all risk and rewarding laziness.
British workers 'among worst idlers', suggest Tory MPs
So, obviously, we should be completely unconcerned. I'm sure our present employment rights are safe in their hands.
We'll not get into the somewhat interesting situation of their legendarily bone-idle boss's spokesman having to deny yesterday that he likes to go for regular naps during the day. Anyone seen him recently?
I’d keep an eye on health and safety regs,I think the ‘Alf and safety gorn mad’ mob will be happy.
When anyone has ever quoted H&S is bollox to me, I recount how I've worked for companies where we got extra year-end bonus if no one died at work for the previous year...
Too many people in Britain prefer a lie-in to hard work
Starting with the PM, his ministers and MPs it would appear. Why did Michel Barnier run rings around the British negotiators? Because they were lazy ****s who hadn't learned enough about what they were negotiating to have a hope faced with a man who had been working solidly on the same project for four years backed by a team of advisors with specific knowledge on every aspect of the deal.
Even when the deal was presented to parliament nobody took the time and trouble to thoroughly read through and work out the consequences before voting for it and Boris signing it. European heads of state meantime had been briefed on every point of negotiations as negotiations went on and signed with the fall-back of it needing to be ratified by the EU parliament which meant that if it turned out they found some things they didn't like they could still get out of it. As it is I've so far heard no criticism of either the deal or Michel Barnier on this side of the channel.
Lazy, sloppy, reckless, risk taking politicians accusing the hard-working British populace. It ain't the politicians who have placed britain in the top ten global countries for GDP. It's those accused of prefereing a lie in to hard work, because everyone likes a lie in but the vast majority only do it once a week.
Whereas Indian children aspire to be doctors or businessmen, the British are more interested in football and pop music.
I'm sure I remember reading other stuff about how the arts were essentially worthless and everyone should aspire to be a taxi driver pulling 80 hour weeks for 52 weeks of the year, or making widgets in a factory all day, every day, without even a 15 minute break, because that is satisfying and good for the soul and will MAKE YOU HAPPY.
The book is literally a Victorian Workhouse master's wet dream.
Also, 1984. War is peace, peace is war.
In my first 4 years at work in the 70s i got no.paid leave year 1, a week year 2, 2 weeks year 3 and 3 weeks year 4.
30 days leave in 4 years.
The book is literally a Victorian Workhouse master’s wet dream.
Indeed. And 4 of its authors are now senior cabinet ministers
I had to go through a H&S presentation at a steel plant a few years back, one of the memories, “people died, there were accidents, just one of those things.”
Is that really the world we want to return to? Cutting corners, saving money, it always ends the same way.
Well done NHS, Tory’s have your back.
Just read this, so depressing...
Conservative MPs have ripped out an amendment to the government's trade bill to prevent the NHS being sold off or undermined by the government's trade deals with other countries.
My guess is
1.Removal of the working time directive
2. Removal of holiday pay for zero hours contracts
3. Reduction in self certification days
4. Reduced redundancy pay
5. Reduction in notice periods
6. Introduction of weekly/monthly renewable contracts with no holiday pay.
7. Removal of benefits rights if you leave a job because of your choice
8. Drastic overhaul of unfair dismissal rights
9. Pension age extension acceleration
10. Tax allowance no longer annualised, tax rate starts at day 1 like NI.
This country has a huge problem with productivity which has nothing to do with workers rights (see Germanys productivity) but we must always remember this is a Tory ideological problem, they are programmed to fix problems by taking things away not investing in fixing the structural problem.
So the above, austerity and lots of stealth tax on poor people will be our foreseeable future. At the heart of Britannia unchained is the simple premise that if you put poor people under enough stress (the above Austerity etc) they will work harder, longer and for less - its actually a pretty brutal approach and has no consideration for the human beings on the receiving end.
This is the only approach the Tories xan take from an ideological point, but they will have to boil the frog slowly and winning the next election presents some problems if you are trying to deliver this.
In my first 4 years at work in the 70s i got no.paid leave year 1, a week year 2, 2 weeks year 3 and 3 weeks year 4.
30 days leave in 4 years.
Were you able to work overtime and take unpaid leave?
I currently work 42hrs a week, cannot work overtime and cannot take unpaid leave without a fight with HR.
Don't worry dougiedogg... I'm sure that now we're out of the EU your situation will be improved.
Wrong Dougiedogg apprentices could not work overtime and unpaid leave qas only for bereavements.
Also you can opt out of the working time directive...and i asuume you have statutory holiday entitlement.
If you really believe this government is going to improve your employment rights that is quite an act of faith.
Currently deploying a 4 day working week in my business (30 hours) no reduction in pay. Well actually we are all getting a working from home allowance as we are sacking off the office and splitting the spare cash between all staff.
Wrong Dougiedogg apprentices could not work overtime and unpaid leave qas only for bereavements
I was asking you, about your working conditions in the 70's, I didn't know the answer.
If you really believe this government is going to improve your employment rights that is quite an act of faith.
I didn't say anything with regards to this.
In reference to the article posted above, I read it and didn't really take anything factual from it. However there seems to be a lot of guesswork on here based on it.
What we do know is that the minimum wage (23+) will rise by 2.2% above inflation which was 0.5% for the last year. The furlough sceme is extended to the end of April. Positives
Don’t worry dougiedogg… I’m sure that now we’re out of the EU your situation will be improved.
I'm not convinced that N.I is really out of the EU at all.
I agree about NI still being in the EU.
What's even more bizarre is the government bigging up NI effectively still being in the EU as a massive advantage for its economy
Raising the most obvious of questions...
What’s even more bizarre is the government bigging up NI effectively still being in the EU as a massive advantage for its economy
Raising the most obvious of questions…
Maybe Boris has finally solved the irish question, something even his hero couldn't do.
However there seems to be a lot of guesswork on here based on it.
Government ministers worked together on a book that explains what they hope we're in store for. You can keep ignoring that, and consider those of us pointing out their stated intentions are just "making stuff up" if you want... but we're not... sorry. If only we were. Interesting that you might get two chances to avoid the worst in NI though... you might be able to get an EU passport to ensure you have greater freedoms than rUK workers (do so if you can)... and also workers rights might need to be kept above a minimum floor to ensure continued de facto Single Market access.
Another round of we don't want to reduce standards/rights but we are voting for the power to reduce standards/rights.
KEY POINTS
EU countries
EU countries must ensure that all workers are entitled to:
a minimum daily rest period of 11 consecutive hours in every 24;
a rest break in any working day longer than 6 hours;
an uninterrupted 24-hour rest period every 7 days, in addition to the daily 11 hours;
at least 4 weeks paid annual leave;
a maximum average working week of 48 hours, including overtime, over 7 days.
Normal night work should be no more than 8 hours on average in any 24-hour period.
Night workers are entitled to free health checks at regular intervals.
National authoritiesNational authorities may:
use reference periods, ranging from 14 days to 4 months, to calculate weekly rest periods and maximum weekly working time;
exempt managing executives, other senior decision makers, family workers and religious officials from the legislation.
Derogations to certain provisions may also apply for any of the following:
security and surveillance activities requiring a permanent presence to protect people or property;
continuity of service or production in areas such as hospitals, docks, airports, the media and agriculture;
a foreseeable surge of activity (notably agriculture, tourism, postal services, railways, accidents);
derogations agreed in collective agreements between employers and employees.
The legislation does not apply to seafarers; nor does it apply to workers covered by more specific rules (such as mobile workers in the road transport, civil aviation, cross-border railway or inland waterway transport sectors).
EU countries may apply more favourable health and safety provisions if they wish.
When the government, not fiction writers, actually outlines which of the parts listed in bold they are going to deviate from, then I'll beleive you @kelvin
The derogations in EU labour law , provide for a great deal of leeway on the WTD.
not fiction writers
People are summarising the writings of GOVERNMENT MINISTERS for you. By all means ignore them, and go and read up for yourself if you want.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britannia_Unchained
My god, it’s Project Fear all over again.
I mean, just look how that turned out.... oh...
To be fair, we had worker rights before the EU and we don’t need the EU to maintain them.
The problem with worker's rights is that they incur extra costs to the business. Extra costs make businesses less competitive. The thing about having them at EU level, where most EU countries are doing most trade with each other, is that the regs apply the same to all members which means that you can no longer gain a competitive advantage by reducing worker's rights. This protects the rights of those workers (i.e. us). Outside the bloc, there is no protection for them. UK businesses will lobby to reduce them to improve competitiveness if they are unable to compete with EU businesses because of other factors like say, tariffs or preferential supply arrangements. Or even simple proximity.
Because we have reduced our competitiveness by erecting trade barriers, we DEFINITELY will have to reduce worker's rights - we'll have no choice. Otherwise we'll just lose the businesses altogether.
The same goes for environmental regs, by the way. This is one of the main reasons I was and still am pro-EU. It helps to stop businesses taking the things we need away from us.
People are summarising the writings of GOVERNMENT MINISTERS for you. By all means ignore them, and go and read up for yourself if you want.
Yep in lieu of the government actually telling us the great Brexit plan we have to go by what the ministers believe in (which they helpfully wrote a book about their thoughts and desires)and watch their actions.
Of course, you can also look at their red lines in the FTA negotiations, and the legislation they are putting on the books... this government is not hiding their intentions as regards food standards, workers rights, environmental protections... if you choose to only listen to their one line soundbites claiming to maintain standards for the rolling news, rather than read about what they are actually doing, and what they have said they want to ultimately achieve... that's on you...
The same principle applies to all politicians... ignore what they say, pay close attention to what they do
We've had many lofty statements about them not undermining workers rights, environmental protections, food standards, access to the NHS for private healthcare companies.
However, when asked to put these intentions into legislation they have consistently refused to do so. Then, yesterday, they did this
https://twitter.com/AngelaRayner/status/1351641059047186434?s=20
So if you still believe what they say then I have some magic beans you may be interested in at a very reasonable price
The same principle applies to all politicians… ignore what they say, pay close attention to what they do
We’ve had many lofty statements about them not undermining workers rights, environmental protections, food standards, access to the NHS for private healthcare companies.
However, when asked to put these intentions into legislation they have consistently refused to do so. Then, yesterday, they did this
Yes, you read that right. Tonight the govt voted against amendments to protect our NHS, uphold food standards, protect our environment, maintain workers' rights & block trade deals with countries that commit genocide.
Another shameful day for Tory MPs after last night's debacle. https://t.co/fz0CvyJtjl
— Angela Rayner 😷 (@AngelaRayner) January 19, 2021
So if you still believe what they say then I have some magic beans you may be interested in at a very reasonable price
So they refused to sign an amendment which would rule out trade deals with China? Am I understanding that correctly?
I'm not sure any country would vote to rule out trade deals with china.
So they refused to sign an amendment which would rule out trade deals with China? Am I understanding that correctly?
That's your interpretation of that?
To be fair the “don’t do trade deals with genociders” one would have been close to the wind on China. Different from don’t trade with Chinese businesses, and not as I understand it the only amendment - so a grain of truth in DougieD’s analysis, but not quite right.
I don't have twitter so I googled the content of the tweet binners posted and got this
Genocide is not just concerned with killing. The treatment of Uighurs could be considered genocide.
Agreed, it could be. Not absolutely definite, but definitely could be. Hence close to the wind.
https://twitter.com/mrjakehumphrey/status/1351829105457717249
It looks like you did get fooled again, Roger.
Hence why the gov could not vote to block trade agreements with the likes of China.
The whole genocidal regime thing is a dead cat and it looks like it's done the trick. Like this country has ever given a monkeys about trade deals with genocidal regimes? Saudi Arabia is our biggest arms customer FFS
More importantly, what it has also done has put workers' rights, environmental controls, food standards, and the NHS on the table in any future trade negotiations, but nobody is talking about that.
Hence why the gov could not vote to block trade agreements with the likes of China.
It wouldn’t be the “gov” voting to block anything, it would be parliament reserving the right to block such a trade deal. The government wants to be able to sign any deal, with anyone, even if the UK courts have ruled that the other signatory to the deal is guilty of genocide, without having to get permission form parliament. Because some people see “democracy” as a government ruling by fiat, not discussion and votes by representatives.
Exactly!
Liam Fox and Iain Duncan Smith made it abundantly clear with their speeches in parliament yesterday that they think/know that 'we' have not just 'Taken Back Control' from EU courts and governance, but also from the UK courts and exempted decision making from Parliamentary Sovereignty (oh, the irony!).
'We' being the executive. Remember that in the absence of a written constitution, that is effectively now the case. The executive is now all-powerful and there is no legal way for anyone to constrain its actions
Feel happy with that?
I certainly don't
This is a coup. People need to start realising that
I meant parliament, was wrong when I said gov.
UK courts have ruled that the other signatory to the deal is guilty of genocide,
As discussed the UK courts could rule China to be guilty of genocide, are we to be ruled out of making agreements with them?
The whole genocidal regime thing is a dead cat and it looks like it’s done the trick. Like this country has ever given a monkeys about trade deals with genocidal regimes? Saudi Arabia is our biggest arms customer FFS
More importantly, what it has also done has put workers’ rights, environmental controls, food standards, and the NHS on the table in any future trade negotiations, but nobody is talking about that.
Hi @binners please post up the actual wording of the agreement signed/voted on for us, or a link to it.
Can we be fair to Roger Daltery? At least he is now speaking up for others… the likes of The Who will have no problem doing a few huge very expensive gigs across Europe, he is now standing up for all the ‘smaller’ bands who he now knows will be hit hard by the actions of this government. And this could have been minimised by the government, even with Brexit. Even as a hardline Brexitier, he had the expectation that the UK would work with the EU to solve problems like this… he was just misguided… and deceived… like millions of others.
When Mr_Daltry voted to end freedom of movement, he meant other peoples freedom of movement, not his own.
Even as a hardline Brexitier, he had the expectation that the UK would work with the EU to solve problems like this… he was just misguided… and deceived… like millions of others.
While this is partly true, a few minutes really thinking about things from a perspective of 'what we have' vs 'we want out and I hope we won't loose it' would have seen through so many of the 'benefits' of Brexit.
Fair play he is stepping up now - but too little, too (4 years) late.
I think that is unfair. His life and work are not being restricted, he is standing up for others. A visa waiver for touring musicians and other trades that rely on travelling around is entirely feasible without keeping EU membership or signing up to full FoM.
Of course, if he had it in him to look at the country more widely, not just his own industry, then he might well realise what we have all lost as regards FoM… but he’s heading the right way. And, if the argument can be made and won about touring visas, perhaps the public will start thinking… “what about other trades”…?
Wake up FFS! This is the whole reason for Brexit. Some of us have been saying it all along. This is the sole reason they wanted us out of the EU. so they can set about a race to the bottom to turn us into a completely unregulated, sweatshop tax-haven off the shores of the EU.
There are no surprises here. They helpfully wrote a book about it, setting out exactly what they planned to do. It should have been made compulsory reading before anyone voted in the referendum.
This lot do not represent the interests of anyone but a tiny, rich minority
Everything is always on the table now, UK law cannot stop that because UK law can be changed. EU law is much harder to change because so much of it is just flesh on the bones of the Treaties, which everyone is pretty much stuck with and which belong to the ECJ.
I wouldn't place too much importance on the Parliamentary posturing, it isn't possible to entrench stuff in this way.
The problem with worker’s rights is that they incur extra costs to the business.
This is not true in the medium to long terms. a happy well rested workforce are more productive.
As discussed the UK courts could rule China to be guilty of genocide, are we to be ruled out of making agreements with them?
The government is reserving the power to make an agreement in such circumstances without recourse to parliament. So the “we” here is the government, not parliament, or the country. If the amendment had passed, the government could still bring new legalisation in front of parliament to support any such contentious deal.
Can we be fair to Roger Daltery? At least he is now speaking up for others… the likes of The Who will have no problem doing a few huge very expensive gigs across Europe, he is now standing up for all the ‘smaller’ bands who he now knows will be hit hard by the actions of this government. And this could have been minimised by the government, even with Brexit. Even as a hardline Brexitier, he had the expectation that the UK would work with the EU to solve problems like this… he was just misguided… and deceived… like millions of others.
I think that's a very charitable way of looking at it. I think its equally likely that he's looking at his projected bottom line post brexit and realised he is going to be taking home a chunk less from European tours than he was before. Even if he has had a Road to Damascus moment, perhaps some contrition would help the cause and I can't help but think staying away from the whole thing would mean his involvment was less of a distraction to the well intended letter.
Do we sell many weapons to people who don't have a dodgy human rights record? Other than the EU of course.
I thinks thats a very charitable way of looking at it.
I’m trying to be charitable to everyone who supported Brexit but feels let down by those that delivered it… be it ageing rockers, fisherman, farmers, people waiting for NHS treatments, market stall traders, retirees in Spain, unionists in NI… anyone and everyone.
In more news about the monumental stupidity of all this
'Absolute carnage': EU hauliers reject UK jobs over Brexit rules
A British freight company director with more than over 20 years’ experience has told how EU hauliers and transport companies are turning their backs on UK business because they are being asked to provide tens of thousands of pounds in guarantees to cover VAT or potential tariffs on arrival in Britain.
We're now viewed as an insular little backwater who it's hardly worth trading with as its too much like hard work. The UK is now demanding that hauliers become customs agents to collect or guarantee VAT revenues. Why would they bother?
We're the first country in human history to impose economic sanctions on itself with an active campaign to deter trade
a happy well rested workforce are more productive.
Exactly. The consequences of not providing this is currently being seen within the NHS, my workplace too for that matter.
I think that is unfair.
Maybe.
The internal conflict I have though is that so many voted for Brexit, I believe taken along on a wave of lies and deceit because it pandered to some soundbites and selfishness. Yes I am holding them accountable for a vote they made that will now cause really significant harm to our nation and many people.
However, I am an optimist. I do think that people will now move to plug gaps, make the best of opportunities, work a way through and make 'something' happen.
The issue is that against so many doing what we can we have a Tory government who are happy to tear up even more, to make changes that really will destroy so many opportunities and lives. As Binners so strongly puts it, wake up people, this is what was going to happen as a combined impact of Brexit and Tory government.
I do think it doesn't take a genius or much thought to work this one out - and yet so many were happy to be sucked in by the liars.
And I voted for none of it.
Exactly. The consequences of not providing this is currently being seen within the NHS, my workplace too for that matter.
The negative consequences are often external to the employers, if they work to a business model that accepts or even relies on fast turnaround of staff.
‘We’ being the executive. Remember that in the absence of a written constitution, that is effectively now the case. The executive is now all-powerful and there is no legal way for anyone to constrain its actions
Feel happy with that?
I certainly don’t
This is a coup. People need to start realising that
This is almost the worst thing about this whole mess. The Henry VII powers, the removal of so many things from parliamentary scrutiny, the fact that even with such scrutiny an 80 seat majority makes it pretty meaningless anyway. There is nothing that could stop them making elections illegal if they chose to do so. Instead it looks like they will just re-draw the boundaries to ensure that they never get voted out, which is slightly less obvious but has the same effect. Unless the opposition get their act together or some backbenchers grow a spine, we are pretty much screwed.
On brexiteers changing their minds. Its to be encouraged adn applauded. they were duped
A good pal of mine was a brexiteer. I recently asked him about this. He said - " to my eternal shame i voted out. I have changed my mind" that is to be accepted graciously
This is not true in the medium to long terms. a happy well rested workforce are more productive.
Of course. But most businesses do not think like that. Hence the need for a supranational body.
” to my eternal shame i voted out. I have changed my mind”
That's how I feel, it's going to annoy me for the rest of my days.
And in a democracy, should be acted upon.
Not one person changing their minds, but 5 years on from the vote (and assuming on average folk from 20 to 70 years old vote) the electorate is 10% different. Plus the increasing numbers suggesting this was a bad idea. On a 1.9% swing.
Worth checking the numbers on whatukthinks.org - it’s bouncing around 50% wanting to rejoin, around two-thirds think leaving was the wrong idea. And the chaos caused by BoJo’s ridiculous deal isn’t going to make us think better of Brexit.
A good pal of mine was a brexiteer. I recently asked him about this. He said – ” to my eternal shame i voted out. I have changed my mind” that is to be accepted graciously
I agree. My sister has said something similar.
I do however think that there is a difference for those who used a platform to promote the untruths, to mis-direct or obscure the reality. There are a group of MP's, celebrities, business people and members of the public who went out their way to influence others. I still would accept a contrite reply as your friend - however I think there are many who are either doubling down or won't push back.
That’s how I feel, it’s going to annoy me for the rest of my days.
I honestly believe that no one should feel shame for how they voted in the past. Everyone is trying to just get on with their lives, rather than getting to the bottom of what plausible ideas the politicians are proposing. If politicians promise one thing, and deliver another, then they should feel ashamed. Those politicians that shouted down the advice of experts as to what leaving the Single Market and Customs Union really means as "Project Fear", rather than putting forward ways to deal with that reality, are the ones who should absolutely feel the worse form of shame. Be annoyed at them, not your self.
And we should have had a "measure twice, cut once" referendum... the closeness of the 2016 referendum, and the willingness of campaigners to immediately back track from the promises they made in the campaign, meant that the public should have been asked again. I'm still not angry with anyone for how they voted in 2016. I am angry with those that refused to let people reassess their decision, and vote again, before we went past the point of no return... especially those that claimed that letting people vote again was "undemocratic".
Everyone has the right to change their mind, and we should not only embrace those that do, but also apologise for any ranker they suffered from people because of their past choices.
and assuming on average folk from 20 to 70 years old vote
People go on voting till they drop dead at on average 80 plus. The most elderly vote more than any other age group and have about double the turnout rate of the youngest voters. And that is a problem.
The British are among the worst idlers in the world. We work among the lowest hours, we retire early and our productivity is poor.
Ladies and gents, I give you, Exhibit A:
I don't know anyone in the UK who could litterly get away with being asleep on the job, aside from the pretend MPs who call others lazy.
Edukator - agreed but the population tapers with age and everyone gets older at roughly the same rate (too many dodgy physics programs) so I won’t be far off.
I take you point on an average of 81 though. That would give 8.5% on a flat average.
If you are correct that old folk vote more, then my 10% or higher is likely.