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I'm surprised at the Scots doing this as I'd had thought they'd be more culturally aligned with Ireland therefore reluctant to engage in these disputes. I guess the strings are being pulled in Westminster.
It's not "the Scots" is it?
It’s not “the Scots” is it?
I doubt it very much, but can imagine the conversation. We really sorry guys but can't fish here anymore. If we catch you again or maybe the time afterwards we made have escort you out of UK waters. If we can be bothered.
You just know the SNP are going to get blamed for it, though.
Brexit: Royal Navy will not be deployed in Scottish waters, Humza Yousaf says
WTF has it got to do with the SNP?
Cos the SNP will landslide the elections this spring and the next crisis for Boris and co is the independence referendum, so now that Brexit is done the tabloids need a new bogeyman - so start whipping up the froth now
hate to break it to you but brexit is very far from done and in other news i'm not sure if you've heard? there's a bit of a bug going going around.
fish really is an emotive issue isn't it?
YGH is right tho - this will be the refrain from now on shouted louder than ever SNP baaaaaaaaad. Johnson said that if it was up to the SNP scotland would have not had a covid vaccine. tories in Scotland are attacking every day. First 7 posts on Davidsons facebook are SNP baaad. Not a single promotion of a tory policy.
the attacks are going to ramp up between now and May
It’s depressing watching a nation very slowly come to understand the term “frictionless trade” 5 years too late…
Funny thou the actual importance of one word ‘frictionless’ in relation to ‘trade’ actually means.
Little details.
How many words in that agreement 🙂
The ‘Shatner’ vat change is a pretty lazy implementation and it does need a fallback to the vat collection being carried out this side.
Rules of Origin is a great example of a Non-Tariff Barrier (NTB).
Let's look at two bikes from one company for example:
Cotic Jeht 1
1st gen model with the frame assembled & painted in Scotland from tubing produced in Birmingham and running Hope wheels, brakes and assorted brackets. The drivetrain and suspension are imported along with other components.
Cotic Jeht 2
1st gen model with the frame assembled & painted in Scotland from tubing produced in Birmingham and running imported wheels, brakes, drivetrain, suspension and other components.
Because Cotic offer a custom build then each bike they export into the EU will have different custom codes, depending on the build. They'll though need to document each and every part etc and present them at the importation customs These are NTB's.
Also in my example I'd guess that Jeht 1 would be free of tariffs, but Jeht 2 would have tariffs added. And correspondingly different tariffs added (from zero to ?) depending on what the various costs of various components are and where they came from.
This is why they and other companies have paused their 'exports' to end-customers while they work out the actual costs, implications and get the paper work sorted.
This is why the vast majority of business folk dealing in cross-border trade supported the SM & CU. And for those of us old enough to remember it before, or who've dealt in non-EU / 'WTO' regimes, why we warned continually how it would add costs & complexity (for zero gain).
running Hope wheels, brakes and assorted brackets
Hope wheels… where are the rims and spokes made…? And so it goes on.
it does need a fallback to the vat collection being carried out this side
That’s what the EU version is to have when it comes in July… I suppose ours does not because they need to free up customs capacity some how this year, not add still further to the demand on customs work.
A leading Tory credited with inspiring Brexit has urged Boris Johnson to cull a raft of EU consumer and worker protections, now the UK has the freedom to act.
Safeguards for the use of data, pay and conditions, GM foods, hedge funds, dangerous chemicals and the disposal of environmentally-damaging vehicles should all be binned, Daniel Hannan said.
“Change is coming. To succeed outside the EU, we need to be fitter, leaner and more globally engaged,” said the former MEP, who has just been made a Conservative peer.
No one can be surprised by this. It is what Brexit is for.
No one can be surprised by this. It is what Brexit is for.
Nope not surprised at all... It was repeatedly brought up and dismissed as project fear.
This reads as if it is all a big surprise…
…the UK media needs to wake up. They’ve repeated the lies about what Brexit means, they aren’t innocent bystanders in this.
But it has since become clear that goods which are imported into the UK and then exported on to the EU are, in many cases, not tariff-exempt because they don’t originate in the EU or the UK.
It has been clear since an EEA type deal was ruled out by May & Corbyn. This should not be news. That it is shows just how deceitful the “news” of the past 5 years has been.
And others close to Europe (not just Cotic...)...
And again, in that guardian story…
It came as a complete surprise.
It shouldn’t be a surprise. It will be to many. Depressing. This is what happen when the “facts” about Brexit are dismissed as negativity. Embrace the optimistic big lies… ignore the pessimists who think in details and practicalities.
It came as a complete surprise.
I suspect the late ‘deal’ is the source of the ‘surprise’, no? (As in I thought you’d got a deal?)
But don’t disagree with your sentiment, chickens coming home to roost... when you’re out of the market, you are out of the market... surprise!
No deal wouldn’t have avoided “surprise” tariffs and charges. Without an EEA style deal, ruled out by the Brits over and over again, trade barriers were coming.
Trouble is, many Leavers reading those links will be thinking, "so what, those horrible EU peeps are being hit by tarrifs why should I care".... Without realising that those people will eventually just source said items from an EU retailer instead.
Just small news item stuff at the moment but yes, chickens coming home to roost.
No deal wouldn’t have avoided “surprise” tariffs and charges. Without an EEA style deal, ruled out by the Brits over and over again, trade barriers were coming.
Go on, explain to me why Cotic have stopped selling to the EU at the moment then/again*... 🤪🤪
*not really, but until the deal and tariffs were published it was a bit difficult, no?
Now it’s whudafuq?
That’s like driving into a wall. The crash isn’t a surprise… but the size of the bill for repairs is unknown ‘till you’re picking through the damage. Many people still think the repairs will be gratis. Some were once promising we’d all be better off. They’re now running the country off the back of those promises…
Ha, repairs bills are very often surprising! 🤣
Anyways, hope you guys manage to get things sorted out soon.
The size of the bill is always a surprise… but you know it’s coming! (Or you should do).
It’s a moving target. There will be Jan2021, July2021, Jan2022 solutions already… and there are likely to be more once negotiations start up again. As I said in 2016… Brexit will mean changing trading rules with the rest of Europe for a decade or more… and make other countries with simpler, less shifting, cheaper costs of doing business better places to have your business than the UK. We love it here though, so moving isn’t an option.
^^^
Surely it should be based in Russia?
That's where all their dirty money 'entirely legitimate funding' came from anyway...
That Daniel Hannan thing is classic nudging from the frothing fascist wing of the Tories (or actually the frothing fascist rump?)
Get one of the nutters to float it, get it into the public consciousness a bit, then go for it a few months later.
With these bastards in charge we are looking down the barrel of poor houses and bonded labour - probably stitching luxury shoes for the top 1%....
That Daniel Hannan thing is classic nudging from the frothing fascist wing of the Tories (or actually the frothing fascist rump?)
TBH I read it yesterday and wondered if it was a newsthump parody 🙂
What’s that not even a week of Brexit and we’re hearing that consumer protection an workers rights should go on the bonfire.
Bit like the promises on that bus which were quickly distanced from once they’d ‘won’.
TBH I read it yesterday and wondered if it was a newsthump parody 🙂
What’s that not even a week of Brexit and we’re hearing that consumer protection an workers rights should go on the bonfire.
Bit like the promises on that bus which were quickly distanced from once they’d ‘won’.
Well it was all a pack of lies....
Conceived by cynical crooks, voted for by the 'easily led'.
Hannan is an arse; now trying to build a platform to peddle his objectionable 'ideas'.
He is a tory peer and this has always been his aim. He along with others have been aiming for this deregulation for a long time and he has Johnsons ear. Its coming - have no doubts.
More reality kicking in.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55583244
"Tariff free does not feel like tariff free when you read the fine print," Marks & Spencer's chief executive Steve Rowe told Reuters.
"For big businesses there will be time-consuming workarounds but for a lot of others this means paying tariffs or rebasing into the EU."
or rebasing into the EU.
Just to emphasise.
And the way the EU have structured the deal gives businesses, multinationals anyway, the time and space to plan for that I think. Look at cars as an example.
UK manufacturing is going to take a massive hit because we are a nation of assemblers of foreign sourced components.
The choices are:
Price hikes to cover tariffs (that will make you uncompetitive)
Source uk components if possible (more expensive)
Move to EU
The choices are:
Price hikes to cover tariffs (that will make you uncompetitive)
Source uk components if possible (more expensive)
Move to EU
You forgot one: Don't be doing the same things as everyone else.
Don’t be doing the same things as everyone else
Yes exactly, this is something the UK is good at, recognising/having novel markets. Healthcare and space for example are industries which the UK could grow on. We are between 6 and 7% of the world space industry and obviously have one of the biggest healthcare sectors in the world, unique in that it is one organisation which can solely generate, use and sell data, we've seen 3 new drugs brought to regulation because of covid and 1 vaccine, all home grown.
Please don't go down the human lab rat line, all of healthcare is a big human experiment, which we all benefit from.
Love that last glib response about doing different things, as if that isn’t already what you need to be doing.
Anyway, the bike industry is lucky, we’re just moving “things” across new pointless borders… think of people working across borders, selling services across them… and let’s not even think about data…
I love your sincere response about the bike industry finding new ways of doing things.
Dougie - new way? such as?
And how on earth do you export healthcare from the NHS?
And how on earth do you export healthcare from the NHS?
In the form of data, the NHS is unique in that it is a single entity (as far as I know) gathering healthcare data from a population of 70 million people. The data recovered from just Covid patients alone has led to the regulation of 3 new treatments and 1 vaccine.
Is healthcare data subject to tariffs? (IDK BTW)
Playing devil's advocate here (a little) you're suggesting we sell data from the NHS on how badly we've handled the pandemic? (not the NHS's fault mind!)
Bucaneering for sure!
I think other countries could just read our news headlines to get a few heads up on new drug treatment therapies.😉
Then you mention moon shots/rocket ships/ moon bases or something?
Playing devil’s advocate here (a little) your suggesting we sell data from the NHS on how badly we’ve handled the pandemic? (not the NHS’s fault mind!)
Bucaneering for sure!
I think other countries could just had our news headlines to get a few years up on new drug treatment therapies.😉
Then you mention moon shots/rocket ships or something?
You're not playing devils advocate, you are ignoring what I said and belittling it, because it doesn't fit your narrative. I'm trying to open debate about Del's comment about doing different things.
Don’t be doing the same things as everyone else
The problem is that most manufacturers are well established over many decades and sell into very competitive markets. To suddenly have to change what you do is not an option.
we’ve seen 3 new drugs brought to regulation because of covid and 1 vaccine, all home grown.
Pharma is global. The UK chemical industry benefited from an EU-wide set of regulations around use, packaging, labeling, classification and transport.
I did 7 years in industrial chemistry, we were buying in chemicals / raw materials from all over the globe and selling the products that we made from them worldwide as well - a lot of it to university and pharma research facilities.
This idea that the UK alone came up with Covid vaccines is laughable but it all fits into the populist "Make UK Great Again" subtext of Brexit.
You’re not playing devils advocate, you are ignoring what I said and belittling it, because it doesn’t fit your narrative. I’m trying to open debate about Del’s comment about doing different things.
No, no.
Not belittling it. More dismissing it my friend. Theres a difference.
This idea that the UK alone came up with Covid vaccines is laughable but it all fits into the populist “Make UK Great Again” subtext of Brexit.
I didn't try to claim this
I didn’t try to claim this
Alluded to it then? My, you are picky.
Alluded to it then? My, you are picky.
No I mentioned data and how the UK benefits from it. People read what they wanted to read, you mentioned moon bases for some reason.
@dougiedogg
Gah! Sorry mate, im deliberately and for no reason being a dick.
I should know better than to post when I'm in a poor mood.
Genuine apologies. I don't happen to agree with you but than in no way gives me the right to be such a childish arse.
Don't even try and look for anything positive on this thread. You'll only get shot down.
There's rules about "selling data" I think....
Yes, businesses are going to have to think of new ways of working or new directions.
Which will take time, and money, and cost jobs and reduce GDP and tax income in the short to medium term, especially having lost frictionless trade and easy access to talent and markets.
None of which was ****ing necessary.
Don’t be doing the same things as everyone else
Yes exactly
It takes quite a while to create successful businesses out of ideas and new startups. It requires large amounts of capital, much of which gets wasted. The reason the US does well at it is that there is enough money swilling around to chuck it all over the place and some of it sticks - plus they have a huge home market. We don't have the investor set up to throw the money around and we don't have a huge home market. Well, we did have a huge home market until we walked away. Imagine California leaving the US, and introducing barriers between Facebook, Netflix etc and the rest of the USA.
We were also depending on EU immigration for skills in high tech areas. That's going to take a fair while to turn around, IF we have the political will and capability to do so. I mean, we need to go from a laissez-faire economy to one that's managed and planned - that's something we just don't have skill or experience in at govt level. How well do you think it's gonna go at first? How long before we get good at it? Do you think there's even the appetite for sustained government investment in the UK? It's not really a Tory strong suit is it?
Don’t even try and look for anything positive on this thread. You’ll only get shot down.
Then why not shoot us down first? If you make a good argument we'll have no choice but to concede.
There’s rules about “selling data” I think….
I see that there's rules on personal data (GDPR), but research data generated in the UK would be a "homegrown" export?
How well do you think it’s gonna go at first? How long before we get good at it? Do you think there’s even the appetite for sustained government investment in the UK? It’s not really a Tory strong suit is it?
1. Probably very slowly
2. Reasonably quickly, we have a good history of entrepreneurship
3. For me yes, can only speak for myself on this one
4. No
For me yes, can only speak for myself on this one
You're not the one with the money though, or the one doing it - that's the issue. I'd love us to have a decent industrial strategy but that needs talent, money, and political will. Not sure we have enough of all three.
we have a good history of entrepreneurship
In what areas? In the last 20 years? We need training and skills to make this work, we have a major skills deficit. That can't be rectified quickly. And if it takes a decade to turn around, we're going to lose so much money in the meantime it'll be difficult to get back.
Just tell me something that's being done or planned that can give me hope.
Just tell me something that’s being done or planned that can give me hope.
And remember to tell us how this is enabled (rather than hindered) by no longer being in, or having a close relationship with, Europe's Single Market and Customs Union.
3. For me yes, can only speak for myself on this one
Erm.
Sort of not really an option though, when it is government investment we're talking about?
"#4 No" doesn't bode very well for #3.
There’s rules about “selling data” I think….
Data can be very profitable. Selling patient data to US drug companies (for instance) could net billions for...someone. The NHS? Someone’s mate who is contracted by Bozzer’s mate’s mate? Maybe a combo?
Now we’re free from Big BrothEUr then assumedly the EU Patient Protection rules have had some Tippexing? Less friction = more dollar?
But if the EU are still keen to protect patient data then it could be that sharing/flow of data between the UK and the EU will be problematic if we don’t satisfy their lust for needless bEUreaucracy? After a week of the UK being now third country (and needing a resolution on EU-UK data flow) I’ve not read anything on the status - but then again haven’t been looking. Too busy watching the Trumpshow and burying my head in the shandy re Rules Britannia. To my own eternal shame. Maybe Dougie you have some knowledge on the new rules?
Missed this:
You forgot one: Don’t be doing the same things as everyone else.
So, for the hard of understanding, why could someone not do those different things cheaper by being based in the EU?
Maybe Dougie you have some knowledge on the new rules?
No. I was just thinking of things we can do differently outside of the EU and put this idea out as an idea/suggestion. I wont profess to have answers, even at peoples insistance that I should.
I'm sure we will still be bound on GDPR, I'm not sure though if healthcare data (eg. treatments/response to treatments/response to drug trials by patient X/Y) recovered by the NHS is personal information?
What I'm saying is, can the UK stand to benefit from the ongoing drug/treatment trial that is the NHS, in the post brexit world?
So, for the hard of understanding, why could someone not do those different things cheaper by being based in the EU?
(devil’s advocate) unless you’re thinking of rejoining the EU, then is there any point to such questions in 2021?
Breakin' it down no more wasting time
Ease your mind, your heart you'll find
No more confusion
Find whats real
Love is all you have to feel
Here and now
Here and now yeah
Here and now is all we've got
why could someone not do those different things cheaper by being based in the EU?
is there any point to such questions in 2021?
There is if you can either move to, or duplicate some of your operations in, the EU.
And, if you are an international business looking to set up a manufacturing or distribution or support hub in Europe… these questions are very valid. Face additional cost and hassle UK>EEA or EEA>UK… in many product and service areas, it’ll be a no brainer.
No. I was just thinking of things we can do differently outside of the EU
And did you come up with anything we can do differently outside of the EU ?
In what areas? In the last 20 years? We need training and skills to make this work, we have a major skills deficit. That can’t be rectified quickly. And if it takes a decade to turn around, we’re going to lose so much money in the meantime it’ll be difficult to get back.
As something I've said before on this thread, based on my previous experience of working with Government we have a chronic skills issue in the UK, particularly across many technical areas. Many UK businesses are significantly dependent on specialists who are going to retire in the next 10 years - the structural deficit is in excess of 50,000 people a year and there isn't the capacity in higher education to address it. A large number are in small, family owned businesses who will simply shut-up shop. The Government tried to address it by effectively taxing businesses through the Apprenticeship Levy to fund it - the result? Apprenticeship numbers declined. Without immigration we're stuffed.
On the other side of the coin, if you are an investor, you're going to be looking at markets with growth and prospects. The UK is predominantly a mature/static/declining market that has deliberated constructed barriers to trade with its most accessible - you don't need an MBA to know you'd probably get a better return elsewhere. The one thing many savvy investors aren't is sentimental.
And did you come up with anything we can do differently outside of the EU ?
Did you read my question, previous posts? or just that line?
Without immigration we’re stuffed.
We do still offer the oppertunity of immigration though? Don't we? I'm not saying its as easy as before but it is still possible, we have just changed the market we appeal to. I'm not rying to refute the bulk of waht you say BTW.
I’m sure we will still be bound on GDPR, I’m not sure though if healthcare data (eg. treatments/response to treatments/response to drug trials by patient X/Y) recovered by the NHS is personal information?
FFS proper Brexiter stuff this, propose something while not having the foggiest idea about it.
Data is only valuable if it is 'deep-data'. Without details it's worth nothing, and personal data is more than someone's name...
And this is already a fully developed industry - I was involved in it in the early 2000's.
Selling patient data to
US drug companiesUS private health insurers (for instance) could net billions for…someone
FTFM
The NHS response back in 2014 was hardly reassuring:
https://www.england.nhs.uk/2014/01/guardian-story/
That was before the new EU rules though. And before Brexit.
So maybe British citizens should be more concerned if they couldn’t have their patient data sold? To assist the economy/someone?
Dougiedogg
"In the form of data, the NHS is unique in that it is a single entity (as far as I know) "
shows how little you know. The NHS is split between the 4 countries. split in england into fake market units that compete not co operate. split between primary and secondary care and in Scotland at least the data is not for sale. so no one monolithic slab of data to sell and no right to sell it.
Data is only valuable if it is ‘deep-data’. Without details it’s worth nothing, and personal data is more than someone’s name…
And this is already a fully developed industry – I was involved in it in the early 2000’s.
Thanks for explaining, no need for the emotive part.
shows how little you know. The NHS is split between the 4 countries. split in england into fake market units that compete not co operate. split between primary and secondary care and in Scotland at least the data is not for sale. so no one monolithic slab of data to sell and no right to sell it.
Now I know more ,thanks.
Did you read my question, previous posts? or just that line?
Yes I have read your previous post or most of them and have seen zilch from you that has any foundation in reality about new opportunities
What I’m saying is, can the UK stand to benefit from the ongoing drug/treatment trial that is the NHS, in the post brexit world?
We can - this has been discussed a lot already - and I think arguably we could still have done within the EU. GDPR covers data that could be used to personally identify someone e.g. name, address, phone number etc. If you use the NHS data to say something like '80% of people with blond hair were COVID-free after a year, whereas only 60% of people with brown hair were' then that's always been fine, in our out of the EU I think. I don't think data needs to include personally identifiable data in order to be clinically useful, does it?
shows how little you know
Can we please discuss this nicely? Just because we are remainers doesn't mean we have to berate brexiters or even middle-grounders. I don't want to live in an echo chamber, and being shitty to those brave enough to discuss the issues until they leave helps no-one.
I don’t think data needs to include personally identifiable data in order to be clinically useful, does it?
This is what set me on my line of thinking but I was told deep data was the only useful form. I know this has been discussed but it always came across with very negative connotations on here, that we were in effect selling off the NHS.
What if we were to use NHS data only in the UK for UK pharma companies?
I wonder how people would feel then?
What if we were to use NHS data only in the UK for UK pharma companies?
I wonder how people would feel then?
I assume this falls into state aid/anti-competion regs then.
Thanks for explaining, no need for the emotive part.
I'm "emotive" because for +4 years I've had to listen to folk spouting stuff, sh*t and/or lies about stuff they haven't a clue about and/or don't fully understand - and them getting an equal platform to experts and the like.
What if we were to use NHS data only in the UK for UK pharma companies?
Define "UK pharma companies", 100% ownership by UK tax paying individuals or just with a nameplate here (and a mass of variations in-between)?
I’m not saying its (immigration) as easy as before but it is still possible, we have just changed the market we appeal to.
Like who?
https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/who-migrates-to-the-uk-and-why/
Another foreseeable brexit bonus. Scottish seafood industry is collapsing due to brexit delays. what a win for the langustines and scallops that are now free to run around on the seabed.
A billion pound a year industry is going to be wiped out. thanks. 80+ % of the seafood used to go to the EU as fresh not frozen produce. Very high quality stuff it was too and highly prized. Now its more expensive and delayed so the EU consumers would have to pay more for a poorer quality product. Obviously they are not doing so
Thanks a bunch brexiteers
I don’t think data needs to include personally identifiable data in order to be clinically useful, does it?
Unfortunatly it does. It needs to be very finely detailed ( granular in modern speak) that granular data means that in some areas / categoies there are so few people in one data set that they are identifiable.
Right handed dark haired men with viking genes of english origin in leith soon identifies me