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A titanic success infact.
If we don’t move our focus to finding the best/least worse way forward, these threads do become little more than Remoaner echo chambers
This.
But it will never, ever, EVER be their fault.
This country was never perfect, and they have further stripped away what was good, what mattered to me.
Tomorrow the boundaries commission will report, the tories could gain up to 14 more new seats, this could mean they still get a majority on even less percentage of the vote. Parliament will not get a vote on the changes(not that it mattered as it currently stands).
We have a virus which to all intents and purposes, is out of control as it currently stands with a Government still acting indifferent to it.
So the question is, how much more are you prepared to lose before you take action against your transgressors? (continual moaning on here is not action)
Achieved a bitmore than expected? Have you read the agreement?
Not every word and I doubt many others have, I have spend a few hours dipping into it and reading summaries from people who know about bits of it and have read those bits. I also read the rest of your post.
Your summary of my comment misses out an important word - achieved a bit more than *I* expected. Just a bit - overall my expectations were broadly met, but being honest, they were slightly exceeded.
Did you place your expectations too high?
Do the checks on lorries/goods at the border crossings constitute 100% checks (ie every lorry/item) or is there a certain % of vehicles/goods which need to be checked (UK->EU)?
I assume (NI->UK) these checks wont be so stringent?
Penny dropping? (joke BTW before you all bite)
https://twitter.com/iaintheeuropean/status/1346054633005973505?s=20
Because we are fed up of being dragged down by England
****'s sake TJ listen to yourself for once.
FTSE is up 2.8% :wrysmile:
FTSE is up 2.8% :
Disaster capitalists happy then 👍
Penny dropping?
If you live by "in visual range only"...
Because we are fed up of being dragged down by England
****’s sake TJ listen to yourself for once.
Very much this - believe it or not, a lot of us English folk aren't happy about it either, but we don't have the option of shrugging our shoulders and ****ing off out of it.
We could/should all be much better off working together. Apparently that's not how TJs socialism works though
If you live by “in visual range only”…
But we were promised chaos at the borders and food shortages. What went wrong? (tongue in cheek again, I know the answer)
Disaster capitalists happy then 👍
And non-disaster types. Markets thrive on certainty, deals bring certainty, no-matter how they come about or what they involve.
Very much this – believe it or not, a lot of us English folk aren’t happy about it either, but we don’t have the option of shrugging our shoulders and **** off out of it.
We could/should all be much better off working together. Apparently that’s not how TJs socialism works though
Scotish nationalists (dislike england) = Good
English nationalists (dislike everyone) = Bad
Is it worse to be xenophobic towards one group or all groups?
Very much this – believe it or not, a lot of us English folk aren’t happy about it either, but we don’t have the option of shrugging our shoulders and **** off out of it.
Yeah, but the problem is that the majority (actually, not the majority, just the largest minority thanks to the UK election system) are happy about it.
I don't think that TJ is saying that all English people are ****ers (or maybe he is) but thanks to a deeply undemocratic system of government England is on a downward spiral and it's taking Scotland (and the other nations) with it.
No Greyspoke this government met my expectations in respect to getting a trade deal.
Its s**t even by Brexiteer standards.
Boris is holding up the bag of s**t like a trophy. Its all Emperors new clothes in a digital age.
Scotish nationalists = Good
English nationalists = Bad
Actually,
Scottish nationalists = We want to be a small country with close ties to the EU
English nationalists = We want UNICORNS AND NO FOREIGNERS!!!
****’s sake TJ listen to yourself for once.
The Scottish government tried working with the UK government... all their compromises as regards the Brexit process and outcome were thrown back in their faces. If you don't want to use the word "dragged"... how about "ignored"... or "forced"... or "belittled"....?
The key difference between Scottish Independence and Brexit is that Scotland has an achievable goal in mind.
Nonsense. Scotland is far more integrated with England economically, politically and culturally than the UK was with the EU. Unravelling 300+ years of complete economic and political integration with England would be several orders of magnitude more difficult than the UK leaving the EU.
But we were promised chaos at the borders
Have you tried booking any deliveries across borders as part of your work yet today?
Nonsense. Scotland is far more integrated with England economically, politically and culturally than the UK was with the EU. Unravelling 300+ years of complete economic and political integration with England would be several orders of magnitude more difficult than the UK leaving the EU.
You're saying you can't possibly imagine Scotland becoming a small country with close ties to Europe?
Haven't you just spent several pages criticizing others for not being able to imagine any positives of Brexit?
What about UK nationalists, do they exist or are they allowed to exist?
Scottish nationalists = We want to be a small country with close ties to the EU
English nationalists = We want UNICORNS AND NO FOREIGNERS!!!
UK nationalists = We want to shape a destiny for our country which isn't bound by the wishes and desires of 27 others debating what we can and can't do.
Nonsense. Scotland is far more integrated with England economically, politically and culturally than the UK was with the EU. Unravelling 300+ years of complete economic and political integration with England would be several orders of magnitude more difficult than the UK leaving the EU.
Yes no-ones house spans the channel for instance 😀
Yes no-ones house spans the channel for instance
Ignoring Ireland again are we?
UK nationalists = We want to shape a destiny for our country which isn’t bound by the wishes and desires of 27 others debating what we can and can’t do.
You're forgetting the fact that you have cede some of your sovereignty in order to trade with other countries.
What UK nationalists want is 100% sovereignty without any of the downsides.
It is impossible.
Ignoring Ireland again are we?
No that's been sorted by the irish sea border
You’re forgetting the fact that you have cede some of your sovereignty in order to trade with other countries.
What UK nationalists want is 100% sovereignty without any of the downsides.
It is impossible.
I get that, I was just trying to make a point about nationalism.
I get that, I was just trying to make a point about nationalism.
If you were I missed it. What was your point about nationalism?
Haven’t you just spent several pages criticizing others for not being able to imagine any positives of Brexit?
I said it's more difficult not impossible. As I said earlier, I can see many benefits for Scotland if they left the UK. It follows then that the UK leaving the EU might also see some too 🙂
Someone back up this thread said something along the lines " we need to take action not just moan on"
I am taking action by defunding my current government of tax take (directly and indirectly") by giving up my offices i have removed rent, rates, gas, electric, broadband, phonelines all reducing tax. I am not hiring people no PAYE or National insurance, adopting a more aggressive tax managment position including utilisation of pension tax breaks (until Rishi takes them), moving to 100% homeworking so no fuel, trains, hotels food.
How much money is this that the government won't get? Not huge maybe £200k... old school you take from me i take from you? As i said above somewhere its all about social contracts and trust and for me they are currently not being honoured.
I can see many benefits for Scotland if they left the UK. It follows then that the UK leaving the EU might also see some too
Some of the benefits for an Independent Scotland would come about by greater alignment with EEA, starting up FoM again, and possibly EU membership... around in circles we dance... but, flippantly, your simple abstract logic doesn't match the likely details, again.
If you were I missed it. What was your point about nationalism?
You directly quoted it, Scots think their version is morally/ideologically superior.
Scots think their version is morally/ideologically superior.
Well... it is clearly "different"... especially as regards migration and international cooperation... it depends on your own morals/ideology whether you see it as "better".
How is it not?
You directly quoted it, Scots think their version is morally/ideologically superior.
I think it is superior in that it has a definable achievable goal that can be summed up in a single statement, ie a small country with close ties to Europe. Obviously the process is far more complex than that and many compromises will have to be made along the way but it is possible to imagine it being an outcome.
The Brexit goal was never defined beyond Take Back Control. It's a meaningless phrase unless you want to go the full North Korea route but that was never presented as being an option. Instead, you were promised friction-less trade AND getting rid of the foreigners.
So yes, by simple virtue of actually being possible, Scottish Nationalism is superior to English Nationalism.
UK nationalists = We want to shape a destiny for our country which isn’t bound by the wishes and desires of 27 others debating what we can and can’t do.
They're going to be very disappointed then. Brexit won't achieve that, we'll just have to do as we're told now rather than being able to debate.
I don't know if this is your view or you're posting what others are shouting for but the answer to this is still the same: what do you / they want to do that we couldn't do before we left? Name one thing.
Ignoring Ireland again are we?
No that’s been sorted by the irish sea border
You do know that NI has a land border with the ROI which is an EU member state, yes?
So yes, by simple virtue of actually being possible
I don't get it. So the UK (not England) leaving the EU is ill-defined and not possible, but Scotland leaving the UK, a much more integrated and longlasting union, is entirely achievable? Add in the complication of moving from one union (the UK), to another (the EU) and it's even more unrealistic. You think tri-partite negotiations between the UK, Scotland and the EU are going to get very far? If the UK leaving the EU is going to cause unacceptable chaos (whiich remains to be seen), then what on earth do you think Scotland leaving is going to do?
then what on earth do you think Scotland leaving is going to do?
It will further the isolation of England, so a win win for the EU and Scotland.
Of course UK leaving the EU is "possible"... we did it nearly a year ago... what people expect to get from doing so may not be quite so "possible" though.
You think tri-partite negotiations between the UK, Scotland and the EU are going to get very far?
Interesting what came out of the UK, Gibraltar, EU negotiations. More of that to come yet as well.
You do know that NI has a land border with the ROI which is an EU member state, yes?
Yes I'm currently sitting about 3 miles from it
And there are homes that straddle it, yes?
Interesting what came out of the UK, Gibraltar, EU negotiations.
You're comparing Scotland to Gibraltar?
No. I'm pointing out that "tri-partite negotiations" can get things done. As hopefully we'll find out when the real work starts on fishing quotas and access to fisheries (UK, Norway, EU)... let's hope so anyway.
I don’t get it.
The question I suppose, and one I don't know the answer to, is how reliant is Scotland on the rUK?
One of the big problems with the UK leaving the EU was that many of our international agreements are via the EU - ie, we don't have agreements explicitly in our own name. Is the same true of Scotland, do they have relationships by dint of being part of the UK which they would lose?
I mean, a lot of this is likely moot if they can leave the UK politically and rapidly rejoin the EU, which is presumably the end game if they do leave. Which would be most beneficial / harmful I wonder?
And there are homes that straddle it, yes?
Yes hence the irish sea border, the same issue would arise in Scot/England case. Not in an England France case, no homes straddle the channel, unless someone lives in the tunnel. Someone took my reply to Dazh post which I quoted and made something else out of it. Context is difficult to maintain on this thread.
Is the same true of Scotland, do they have relationships by dint of being part of the UK which they would lose?
It's worse than that. Scotland doesn't even have the administrative structures and institutions required to conduct such relationships. The UK at least had an existing foreign office and various other organisations which could be used to manage any negotiations and administrative practicalities. Scotland woud be starting from scratch in many areas.
The UK needed 3 years to leave the EU and still faces years of negotiations to fill in the detail. How long would Scotland need to leave the UK? Probably at least a decade, maybe more. It's mental quite frankly.
FCO (sorry FCDO now) has been decimated over the last few years. If you want to staff a Scottish Foreign Office, there are a lot of good highly experienced people available right now...
The question I suppose, and one I don’t know the answer to, is how reliant is Scotland on the rUK?
One of the big problems with the UK leaving the EU was that many of our international agreements are via the EU – ie, we don’t have agreements explicitly in our own name. Is the same true of Scotland, do they have relationships by dint of being part of the UK which they would lose?
I mean, a lot of this is likely moot if they can leave the UK politically and rapidly rejoin the EU, which is presumably the end game if they do leave. Which would be most beneficial / harmful I wonder?
NATO, IMF, WHO, UN etc would probably all need to be reapplied to. The CTA travel area might not apply to Scotland either.
It’s worse than that. Scotland doesn’t even have the administrative structures and institutions required to conduct such relationships.
Could that be replaced with EU membership?
Context is difficult to maintain on this thread.
Very true. Of course it helps that people living in NI can be both UK and EU citizens... that kind of blending reduces border problems. There isn't the same mitigation available in the result of a Scotland/rUK split, sadly, it would be messier and far harder to fudge. Not insurmountable though.
NATO, IMF, WHO, UN etc would probably all need to be reapplied to. The CTA travel area might not apply to Scotland either
Would scotland require or seek an army? The whole basis of nationhood is having an independent currency and an army.
Not required with instant EU accession maybe, but with a transition, maybe yes.
I don’t get it. So the UK (not England) leaving the EU is ill-defined and not possible, but Scotland leaving the UK, a much more integrated and longlasting union, is entirely achievable?
The goal of independence is to become a small country with close ties to the EU.
The goal of Brexit was to become an international powerhouse whilst maintaining 100% sovereignty.
There are already many small countries that are either in the EU or have close ties to it but I can't think of a single country that is an international powerhouse while maintaining 100% sovereignty.
The goal of English Nationalism is a fairytale while the goal of Scottish Nationalism is achievable and has been demonstrated so many times.
Do you really believe that the UK's goal is achievable and Scotland's goal isn't?
Please note, I said achievable. Not 'The easiest deal in human history' or other such nonsense.
Could that be replaced with EU membership?
Leaving the UK is hard enough, leaving and then also joining the EU at the same time is even harder, and would require all those instutions and personnel in place to manage a ridiculously complex tri-partite negotiation and productiion of subsequent treaties. It's mind-bogglingly complicated. I very much doubt it's even practically possible.
I very much doubt it’s even practically possible.
Where's that can do spirit you've spent the last umpteen pages telling us we should all have?
People seeing difficulties for an independant Scotland should perhaps look at the Baltic states following divorce from the Soviet Union. Ups and downs but they're doing fine as independant countries, Estonia is an EU member and part of the Euro currency group. It has oil shale, a coast line, banking, agriculture... . I don't see why Scotland couldn't do as well as Estonia.
The whole basis of nationhood is having an independent currency and an army.
Iceland? And who says Scotland doesn't have an army, anyway?
Where’s that can do spirit you’ve spent the last umpteen pages telling us we should all have?
Currently stuck in thinking about the complexities of Scotland leaving the UK. 🙂
It doesn't take very long to think of big problems. Although to be fair I think I said the UK leaving the EU was also impractical and was proved wrong on that so who knows! I think though it's a fair assumption to say extracting Scotland from the UK would be much more difficult that us leaving the EU.
shall l we draw a line under the scottish independence thing in this thread? TJ and i have had the same conversation about 5 times. i think our positions at least are understood even if we can't agree on much about it! there's already a thread and it must be about that time of the month when epicylo starts another one... 😀
I think you need to state what you think will be difficult about Scotland leaving the UK, Dazh. It already has a parliament, an excellent education system, a health service, a bank, judicial system, policing... . There might be a few arguments about how UK sovereign debt is divided up but there are many post Soviet examples of countries doing fine from a much less developed base.
So this VAT thing. Apologies if we've done this already and all that, but...
HMRC want all foreign companies to register with the UK so that the foreign company can collect the UK VAT on behalf of HMRC... and HMRC would like to charge the company for the privilege of providing that service to HMRC.
Did I read that right?
bbc.co.uk/news/business-55530721
Has this been invented with the express intent of stopping any dastardly Johnny Foreigners sending any of their Funny Foreign Stuff to the Best British Great Britain?
Because it's f*ing mental.
I think you need to state what you think will be difficult about Scotland leaving the UK, Dazh. It already has a parliament, an excellent education system, a health service, a bank, judicial system, policing… . There might be a few arguments about how UK sovereign debt is divided up but there are many post Soviet examples of countries doing fine from a much less developed base.
Do you have your own tax and revenue already? I know you can levy different rates.
Other than that and DWP, then I guess it's just the more minor government departments you'll need to set up - presumably by using staff in the Scottish offices of UK departments. More straight forward than I thought - can you PM me when your immigration department are up and running?
Has this been invented with the express intent of stopping any dastardly Johnny Foreigners sending any of their Funny Foreign Stuff to the Best British Great Britain?
We've had a few threads on it. But yes. A similar EU scheme was also due to be introduced on 1st Jan as well.. but got bumped to July because of Covid19 (wise). And theirs has a fall back on paying on delivery if not collected at source (also wise). But both UK & EU are basically stopping low value vat free imports from all outside countries... just as we did for the Channel Islands a few years back... to stop off-shore shopping having a tax advantage (Amazon & CDWOW dispatching CDs from Jersey, etc).
I think you need to state what you think will be difficult about Scotland leaving the UK
It's not just having the institutions and the people, more the scale of the task of unravelling something that's completely interconnected, and doing so with one side of the negotiations (the UK) being an unwilling and probably uncooperative party.
Anyway we're off topic. The point is that the parallels between brexit and scottish independence are very close, and decrying one whilst supporting the other is pretty daft.
Scotland should perhaps look at the Baltic states following divorce from the Soviet Union. Ups and downs...
Doesn't go so well if you misread "Balkan" for "Baltics".
Lot more "downy" than "uppy".
Could that be replaced with EU membership?
Leaving the UK is hard enough, leaving and then also joining the EU at the same time is even harder, and would require all those instutions and personnel in place to manage a ridiculously complex tri-partite negotiation and productiion of subsequent treaties. It’s mind-bogglingly complicated. I very much doubt it’s even practically possible.
Possibly true but that's answering an entirely different question from the one I asked. Have you considered a career as a Tory politician?
Could EU membership mean that Scotland doesn't require all those things you say it doesn't have, or no?
Edit, cross posts and I’m at risk of going full Epicyclo
Would scotland require or seek an army? The whole basis of nationhood is having an independent currency and an army.
there are many countries without an independent currency - the whole of the EU for starters and costa rica does not have an army
As regards a Scottish Military - of course Scotland owns 9 % of the UK military including the nukes. IIRC there is a paper somewhere done on a future Scottish military. Not have delusions of grandure like ~England, Scotland would require a smaller military and no need for nukes or big aircraft carriers. coastal defense / commando type stuff only. I'd be happy going the costa Rica route tho
Its really funny when Scotland is discussed on here watching people with no understanding of the situation making pronouncements that are incorrect
Leaving the UK and going straight into the EU makes it easier not harder!
molgrips
Full MemberBecause we are fed up of being dragged down by England
****’s sake TJ listen to yourself for once.
Yes Dragged down
PFI forced upon us by successive governments
Economic policies designed for London not Scotland
Immigration policies designed for racists not Scotlands needs
Stipping of Scotlands wealth for decades
Impiosition of tory governmenbts we never vote for
YThen Brexit
I have no doubt at all an independent Scotland would be ar richer fairer country
I do not want independence - but for me its the lessor of two evils. Remaining in the UK is damaging Scotland hugely
costa rica does not have an army
Wikipedia would say thats not entirely correct https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Costa_Rican_Civil_Guard
When I say Army, I should have said armed forces. Scotland would probably need a Naval force of some sort.
The UK needed 3 years to leave the EU and still faces years of negotiations to fill in the detail. How long would Scotland need to leave the UK? Probably at least a decade, maybe more. It’s mental quite frankly.
No, the UK leaving the EU was mental... Scotland leaving the UK and rejoining the EU makes perfect sense now I'm afraid, and it could and would happen VERY quickly I'm sure!
How long, after their vote, did it take for Czechoslovakia to become two independent states?
(Hint: it wasn't decades)
douggiedogg - yes and there is a Scottish government ( or SNP - can't remeber which) document detailing this
Basically IIRC its a couple of gunboats for costal defense and a small professional military
But for me? The Costa Rica route. Why on earth does Scotland need a military? Whats the realistic threat?
How long, after their vote, did it take for Czechoslovakia to become two independent states?
The velvet divorce or the accidental divorcee or the friendly divorce - I have had it refered to as all three.
Its really funny when Scotland is discussed on here watching people with no understanding of the situation making pronouncements that are incorrect
Its curious that one of those voices also claims to want a fairer society and some quite significant changes. But the prospect of Scotland moving towards such a thing is too difficult.
I personally would much rather a better fairer UK in the EU but I am not going to get that. I wouold prefer a federal UK but I am not going to get that either
What is left for me? Scottish independence
Scotland would probably need a Naval force of some sort.
for what purpose?
I do not want independence – but for me its the lessor of two evils. Remaining in the UK is damaging Scotland hugely
This is what I hear from my friends in the North… “No” voters last time, not nationalists, not after independence for purity or nationhood reasons… but they now want out from what we are making the UK into. All say they want a referendum and to kick off closer alignment (EU membership if possible, but happy to be Norway2 if need be) with every other country in Europe, and not have England make (poor) decisions on their behalf, without taking the elected Scottish government’s requests for compromise and cooperation into account.
Would scotland require or seek an army? The whole basis of nationhood is having an..an army.
More worrying for the UK, which is currently struggling to reach its recruitment targets is that it is disproportionally reliant on recruits from Scotland. The SNP are also committed to removing the nuclear deterrent - the issue being that there's nowhere available in England to base Trident (Devonport isn't seismologically stable enough).
Scottish independence will undoubtedly be messy, but the Tory handling of Brexit and Covid has done more for the independence cause than anything else.
The Costa Rica route. Why on earth does Scotland need a military? Whats the realistic threat?
I think you're forgetting your history 🙂