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Everyone forgets that its all just business, money talks and we still have it.
You are correct, but who are “we” in that context dougie?
its all just business
I suppose it is for some. Not for many.
Those with money will indeed carry on with their lives, with either little or even a positive impact, thanks to having those riches. This process is about removing rights, opportunities and “control” from those without substantial funds, on both sides of the EU:UK border.
Get your EU passport if you can. Crack on…
https://twitter.com/reuters/status/1344592936177176577?s=21
It would be very valid to them
Up there with anti-Papism creationalism and say no to sodomy no doubt. Times are changing traditional unionism and Britain interfering in Ireland are dying, good riddance.
Meanwhile, not too far from that Guardian article....
Levelling up? **** off!
Prospering mightily? Well the Brexity ****er with £12bn to his name is....
Welcome to the future. Whisper it quietly all you working folk, but the buzzword for business owners and funders for 2021 is 'flexibility'.
That is as in 'flexible employment arrangements'. I.e. you little people will bloody well 'flex' up and down when the money men say.
The 'sell' is going to be something along the lines of 'furlough and working from home demonstrated the desirability to lots of people of flexible working arrangements'. But this time it won't be being paid 80% or whatever it was to sit on your jacksie all day.
The starting pistol for 11pm tonight is cocked and ready....
Can anyone point me to a list of legislation which the EU 'imposed' upon us? I saw an excellent piece of analysis about 12 months ago on social media somewhere, but now I can't find it. The conclusion was that all the legislation was good and we would have put it in anyway without being in the EU.
It's okay Danny, haven't you read Keith's new year message?
UKs best years ahead of us apparently,
Time to holdy hands now peepoles and move forward with vigour and endeavour 👪👍
I've heard it mentioned so many times that there are lots of things that we like to say the EU "imposed on Britain" but that Britain had every right to refuse if it chose to do so, but never bothered.
Is this actually true? And if so to what degree?
And why didn't we "just say no" to things that weren't in our best interest if the option was there?
I've heard it said that some of our EMP's were actually anti-EU and therefore it served their purpose for it to look like the EU was "pushing things on us" all the time..... Was it that, or did our guys just not pitch up at meetings?
I have no idea how much of this is based on fact and how much is nonsense (fake-news nowadays I guess), so if anyone has any actual facts, I'm keen to learn.
You are correct, but who are “we” in that context dougie?
A citizen of the UK (I assume) who has benifitted from living in it and will continue to do so should you wish.
Up there with anti-Papism creationalism and say no to sodomy no doubt. Times are changing traditional unionism and Britain interfering in Ireland are dying, good riddance.
I agree, unfortunately hardline nationalism isn't following it. A UK government governing in a part of the UK is not interfering however, an aside to this is that SF are quite happy to govern N.I on behalf of Britain, its a paradox.
I’ve heard it mentioned so many times that there are lots of things that we like to say the EU “imposed on Britain” but that Britain had every right to refuse if it chose to do so, but never bothered.
Is this actually true? And if so to what degree?
We had an envious amount of vetos and special arrangements that meant we could pretty much cherry-pick what EU rules we wanted to accept. Not switching to the Euro for example.
And why didn’t we “just say no” to things that weren’t in our best interest if the option was there?
They were regularly used as bargaining chips to get something better.
I’ve heard it said that some of our EMP’s were actually anti-EU and therefore it served their purpose for it to look like the EU was “pushing things on us” all the time….. Was it that, or did our guys just not pitch up at meetings?
Farage.
I have no idea how much of this is based on fact and how much is nonsense (fake-news nowadays I guess), so if anyone has any actual facts, I’m keen to learn.
We had an envious position as one of the founding members meaning we had a massive say in how almost every rule, law and scheme was set up and administered. Add that to the previously mentioned vetos we had and it meant that, together with Germany and France, we basically WERE the EU. We've gone from being a Big Fish at the Big Table to a little fish in the whole planet.
We had an envious amount of vetos and special arrangements that meant we could pretty much cherry-pick what EU rules we wanted to accept. Not switching to the Euro for example.
And why didn’t we “just say no” to things that weren’t in our best interest if the option was there?
Is this in the same way that the EU parliament will be able to say no to the deal?
spekkie
Free Member
I’ve heard it mentioned so many times that there are lots of things that we like to say the EU “imposed on Britain” but that Britain had every right to refuse if it chose to do so, but never bothered.
The EU actually published a huge list at some point in the last 18 months.
And let's not forget Farage's attendance to the influential fisheries committee. He could have voted on matters but preferred to not to (and then blamed EU for the policies)
I’ve heard it mentioned so many times that there are lots of things that we like to say the EU “imposed on Britain” but that Britain had every right to refuse if it chose to do so, but never bothered.
Is this actually true? And if so to what degree?
One of the big issues was immigration, specifically the idea that people could simply come over from another EU country and start claiming benefits, and that they would do that because the benefits are worth more here than in their own country.
However, under EU law you only have the right to stay in another EU country for three months until you have to prove that you can support yourself, i.e. not claim benefits. The UK didn't enforce this - we didn't kick out EU migrants after three months without work - because we don't monitor who is in the country and where they are. Because we don't have registration or ID cards. When I went to Germany I had to register with the town hall*, and I had to de-register when I left, which surprised me. But that meant they knew where I was and what I was doing.
* Sadly it was well signposted, which denied me the opportunity to use one of the very few phrases I remembered from year 9 German: "Wo ist das Rathaus?"
A citizen of the UK (I assume) who has benifitted from living in it and will continue to do so should you wish.
So “our” money will be used to ensure that “we” still effectively have the same quality of life and life chances? Despite the fact that “our” money can just bugger off outside the UK… as many leading Brexit industrialists have already done… Ineos and Dyson spring immediately to mind…
Only YOUR own money will shelter you from the effects of leaving the EU… there is no “we” in this… if you don’t have the money, or a route to EU citizenship… you will be screwed over in all this… there is no one acting in your interests I’m afraid.
You do indeed. And there is a reason why legal qualifications are one of few explicit and guaranteed professional equivalencies in the new agreement… so that other financial centres in Europe can make use of that support, whether it be teams working across the EU:UK border, or individuals following new opportunities away from London.
Yes, they will make use of the legal industry here. However, you don't do video conferences when a high net worth client threatens to sue you - the lawyers come in and set up shop. It's useful to have those guys right next door to you and know them on a more personal basis.
The City isn't going away anytime soon, rumors of it's death are wildly exaggerated. My wifes company has actually been closing offices in Europe and expanding it's London outfit.
Only YOUR own money will shelter you from the effects of leaving the EU… there is no “we” in this… if you don’t have the money, or a route to EU citizenship… you will be screwed over in all this… there is no one acting in your interests I’m afraid.
Kelvin, this country consists of a lot more people than those who reside in downing street, there are many people who have your interests at heart, who spend public money on your behalf, take your conspiracy hat off and look around at the real people who surround you, the 95% who have jobs and contribute, thats who the country is, not some shadowy elite. BTW Dyson hasn't left, he is a big landowner in England and still employs people in agricultural development to the benefit of UK agri.
the lawyers come in and set up shop
That they will do. Read again. Firms in London will work across borders. Including setting up offices in other financial capitals (I know of some were waiting for the professional equivalence to be signed into a deal before doing so. And, staff will be poached, and will move. Not everyone wants to stay in London forever. The attitudes of many have shifted in the last 4 years.
They have been setting up small skeleton offices where they need to, the investment management, wealth management and hedge fund firms are staying put.
Oh and
there are many people who have your interests at heart
The claim is that because “we” have money, it’ll all be fine. You need to realise that Brexit is about the sovereign individual, not the bettering of the lives of you and me. If you think otherwise, you’re in a for a shock.
sovereign individual
Yes, thats the bible isn't it? One book, written by one man, in 1996.
Is this in the same way that the EU parliament will be able to say no to the deal?
This actually brings up another issue that isn't being highlighted in the press. The EU parliament has only so far agreed to the Deal in principle so far, they have reserved the right to scrutinise it further in January before it is finally accepted. Worst case scenario is that they decide to reject it and we're pushed back to a No Deal but that is incredibly unlikely. What is going to happen is that the Deal that has been presented will be used as a starting block for further negotiation and we will be stuck in a continuous loop of toing and froing for years or even decades to come. Brexit is far from done.
Yeah but most of the people who work and are well off and doing ok don't need help. They don't need as much help as those who are struggling. So don't ignore them.
SF are quite happy to govern N.I on behalf of Britain, its a paradox.
Not really, they are engaging in the political process to further a united Ireland much like they do in the rest of Ireland, as per the gfa. We’ve seen the old ways of doing things, the guns are largely away. But you knew all that anyway, cheeky scamp.
Oakley muppet
I thought the EU ruled out skeleton teams stating that all doings in euro stuff had to be in the EU including all the computer systems a d the traders
I don't think it will collapse overnight but gradually although some has already gone
I never know how we are meant to refer to the political entities on the island of Ireland
I used the bbc names and got told off so help me with this please
Trading news via Reuters
https://www.hl.co.uk/news/2020/12/29/brexit-big-bang-to-trigger-tectonic-trading-rift-in-europe
Not really, they are engaging in the political process to further a united Ireland much like they do in the rest of Ireland, as per the gfa. We’ve seen the old ways of doing things, the guns are largely away. But you knew all that anyway, cheeky scamp.
Do you think that SFs political ambitions will let them give up powersharing and control in N.I and become a minority party in a united ireland? I (cynically) think they have a vested interest in the status quo, its all smoke and mirrors.
Oakley muppet
I thought the EU ruled out skeleton teams stating that all doings in euro stuff had to be in the EU including all the computer systems a d the traders
I don’t think it will collapse overnight but gradually although some has already gone
For now, the EU want as little market chaos as possible - so UK firms with offices in the EU are still being given the regulatory approval to do this. Hence why British firms are still investing in office space and moving some jobs over.
For a nuanced view on the outlook for London check out this piece...
Probably been discussed but did you see from 2022 we will need to purchase a visa waiver to visit Europe and if you want to drive your own car you will need an insurance certificate from your insurer which you have to apply for at least 6 weeks in advance? I'd missed that little nugget of extra joy.
Yes I believe they would give up their role in NI for the forthcoming united Ireland.
Being a tad cynical imagine the amount of politicians who’ll be claiming to have reunited Ireland.
I never know how we are meant to refer to the political entities on the island of Ireland
I used the bbc names and got told off so help me with this please
I've struggled with this too, probably pissing off some folk unintentionally. In the main I would say Ireland (meaning the country now in the EU) and Northern Ireland (meaning the bit in the UK). Of course, Ireland is the name of the whole island, which is also part of the British Isles. I guess Republic of Ireland would be clearer, neutral, and just a bit more tedious to say/write-out.
I never know how we are meant to refer to the political entities on the island of Ireland
I used the bbc names and got told off so help me with this please
What are the BBC names?
Yes I believe they would give up their role in NI for the forthcoming united Ireland.
Being a tad cynical imagine the amount of politicians who’ll be claiming to have reunited Ireland.
Well I hope that in our future United Ireland we never have them as a majority government. A Marxist government with a parmilitary council in command isn't what I want, and I'm sure they wouldn't view the EU with any less contempt than the UK gov.
What are the BBC names?
Inconsistent.
parmilitary council in command
There was a paramilitary presence in both sides of the divide only one was less state-sponsored.
There was a paramilitary presence in both sides of the divide only one was less state-sponsored.
I'm talking about the current structure of an all ireland party, the ones that went to a funeral during lockdown because their leadership demanded it. The same party who would vie to govern us in the event of a united ireland. I'm not trying to "whatabout" by the way, just trying to highlight to people on here what we would get when the "good nationalists" take control.
Trading news via Reuters
From that link all I can see is that the temporary allowance of the use of the skeleton offices in the EU for British firms is to avoid a mass exodus in the New Year. The European Trading Houses are lining up to get as much of the London business as possible so it will be a slow drain of business leaving us for European hubs rather than a massive shift. Less of a shock to the system but still a large amount of business will be leaving our shores.
@geda, duties are not tariffs, think about alcohol or fuel. Duties are effectively consumer taxes.
Ireland naming context dependent innit.
Context is everything… as someone not living on, or from, the Island of Ireland, I call the big bit Ireland, and the little bit Northern Ireland. Everyone I know from there uses different terms, depending on what they are talking about.
Anyway… The Rock…
https://twitter.com/independent/status/1344641968291405824?s=21
I used " the republic of Ireland " and "northern ireland" with " the island of Ireland " for the whole thing.
I got told off on here for this
Thanks for the answers.
They do pretty much back up what I'd heard before.
We were in top-dog position, refused to do the work/inforce the rules (EU Migration etc) for goodness knows what reason, then cried about it all and wanted out. We really don't seem to do ourselves any favours sometimes.
Here in Spain we have identity numbers (had the same in South Africa) and we use them for everything. I've heard people back in the UK protest about not wanting to be "spied on" - I can't say I've ever felt like I was being spied on, but equally my life is so boring no one would want to spy on me.
We also have a document obtainable from the local council for a euro, that certifies you live where you say you live - and there are some things you can't do (register with the doctor etc) without it.
I used ” the republic of Ireland ” and “northern ireland” with ” the island of Ireland ” for the whole thing.
I got told off on here for this
I say call them what you want and don't worry about it, as these are correct terms I don't know why you would get told off for using them.
To enlarge, mostly usage in the UK press appears to be "Ireland" for the country whose official name is "The Republic of Ireland" unless the context in which it is being used requires something more specific.
I was not party to the arguments here about naming, but probably using the full title unnecessarily would wind a few folks up.
NI one of the poorest regions of the UK, in fact one of the poorest areas in Western Europe. The uk is doing a fine job!
and a question, should Scotland get independence who will the ulster unionists pick for a union.
Like I said already - we don't want them 🙂
To enlarge, mostly usage in the UK press appears to be “Ireland” for the country whose official name is “The Republic of Ireland” unless the context in which it is being used requires something more specific
my passport definitely says Éire Ireland on the cover.
Not sure if this has been “disclosed” on here but my mum's just told me that Stanley Johnson is applying for french citizenship! You can’t make this merde up!
On the previous page Minty. No surprise really, French residency isn’t enough for him to carry on as he was across multiple EU countries…
…some will keep their freedoms.
I'm no fan of Stanley Johnson but in his defence he was pro-remain rather than his opportunistic shit of a son.
He backed his son as regards the removal of Freedom of Movement (from the plebs) after the referendum (remember that citizens of some nonEU countries have that… and so could we, if our politicians hadn’t ruled it out).
EDIT: even before the referendum, he said that the EU should abolish Freedom of Movement. Even when campaigning for Remain, he was proposing and in favour of the ordinary people losing that right, safe in the knowledge that the rich and connected like him will always be able to do what they hell they like, and it’s only the working units of the lower classes that are kept captive by national borders.
NI one of the poorest regions of the UK, in fact one of the poorest areas in Western Europe. The uk is doing a fine job!
By what measure? Will this change under dail rule?
Fair play kelvin - I hadn't realised that.
I respect those who, like my eldest son, Boris, have a different perspective. Like Boris, I believe the EU needs major surgery. The Prime Minister tried his best with the renegotiation but there is a long way to go. I don’t believe the EU’s freedom of movement rules can survive given the pressures of migration.
The Prime Minister is already desperately seeking ways to redeem his ‘no ifs and buts’ pledge to reduce the rate of net immigration (currently running at 300,000 a year). If that involves a rupture with the EU over the ‘freedom of movement issue’, then – in my view – it is a price which must be paid as we seek to bring the UK’s currently totally out of control rate of population growth back into some kind of reasonable framework. And I say this as someone who has long been pro-Europe. For me, the issue is totally fundamental. This is a personal red line.
Here in Spain we have identity numbers (had the same in South Africa) and we use them for everything. I’ve heard people back in the UK protest about not wanting to be “spied on” – I can’t say I’ve ever felt like I was being spied on, but equally my life is so boring no one would want to spy on me.
You want to be spied on? Try flying in to Heathrow then take a car into London and go for a wander. The growth in the amount of cameras and radars is amazing for someone who hasn't lived in the UK in the past 20 years. And then the Telegraph complains about ID cards 😀 😀 😀
From that link all I can see is that the temporary allowance of the use of the skeleton offices in the EU for British firms is to avoid a mass exodus in the New Year. The European Trading Houses are lining up to get as much of the London business as possible so it will be a slow drain of business leaving us for European hubs rather than a massive shift. Less of a shock to the system but still a large amount of business will be leaving our shores.
Lets not forget that last year, despite ongoing uncertainty over the future of the UK’s relationship with the EU DB signalled its commitment to long-term expansion in the City by publicly recommitting to 21 Moorfields while at the same time slashing 18,000 jobs from its global headcount - 21 Moorfields is an utterly gargantuan office building that they are developing. https://www.egi.co.uk/news/deutsche-bank-commits-to-city-after-cutting-18000-jobs/
As I stated previously - the City isn't going anywhere - it will just lose some of it's monolithic dominance. This will of course come at a bad time post Covid, as the city will probably only be able to prop the rest of the failing country up enough to see our GDP growth stagnate post Covid - London and London workers will carry on getting richer whilst everyone else will carry on feeling poorer in real terms.
That'll learn them London remoaner elites. Not.
City isn’t going anywhere – it will just lose some of it’s monolithic dominance
Perfectly put.
As I stated previously – the City isn’t going anywhere – it will just lose some of it’s monolithic dominance.
It is perfectly put. And we need to remember that 'some' is a concept with a huge range.... on a huge ****ing number.
It is like when people glibly talk about whether Johnson's shitty deal loses 4% of GDP or 5%. The variance of 1% is on £2.2tn. Each 0.1% spunked (or spaffed as De Pfeffel would probably put it) is tens if not hundreds of capital spends that are for the benefit of society.
Put that on top of the fact that none of this idiocy actually has a point* and I start to get quite cross.
*'Sovrunty' doesn't get the class sizes in schools back down to sensible levels, you can't spend 'sovrunty' on new equipment or buildings for hospitals. The whole thing is a colossal fail and it is all for less than **** all. That's why I will never be able to 'get over it'. It is without doubt the stupidest thing any electorate in any developed nation has ever voted for.
**** Brexit.
oakleymuppet
I think your other half / her company are either being over optimistic or putting their heads in the sand a bit. Its pretty clear the EU want complete control of all euro thingy trading ( you can tell I am a financial wizz can't you 🙂 ) they may not insist on it all being there by the 4th but you can bet its going to be quick. The problem for London as I understand is that support services and stuff will move with them, then its convenient for other traders to be in the same country and you end up with a critical mass that means everyone goes. Sort of the reverse of how London ended up so strong in financial thingummys now. That will take many years but its a process very hard to stop.
I think within a year all euro trading will be in the eurozone and that within 10 London is a shadow of what it is now.
TJ Euro clearing is only a small portion of what the city does, a lot of the work can be automated so it probably wont lead to a linear growth in jobs in Europe, it's high quantity but low profit margin stuff and much of the support network exists for what the rest of the banking sector does. It's not complicated work requiring armies of lawyers and compliance bods.
It's going to hurt London but it's not an apocalypse that will lead to London being a shadow of it's former self - investment in the London banking and fintech sector continues at pace. If the sector was scared, I'd have expected a massive run on foreign direct investing.
Instead.....
Don't get me wrong, me and the wife aren't hugely bothered about some of the jobs leaving London because it means more opportunities for her in cities where it easier for me to get well paid employment (I'm in pharma). We're not trying to be optimistic because from a pragmatic perspective it might work out for us.
of 2020;
“the year when we rediscovered a spirit of togetherness, of community”
Borris Jonson
Well, **** you and **** right off, you fat ****. You can stick your togetherness straight up your fat lying arse.
“the year when we rediscovered a spirit of togetherness, of community”
Boris Johnson
Isn't it meant to be tomorrow that one feels queasy?
Alexander Boris De Pfeffel Johnson (Man of the People) can go **** himself.
9 minutes until my rights are ripped away from me
If you voted for brexit, I hate you with every fibre of my being.
Glad they made it 11pm (here). Meant I could do a quick live check of some new ordering vat calcs and tax/fee liability messaging before hitting a stronger beer ready for midnight.
The one silver lining for me tonight is I'm not with my mates tonight most of whom will be celebrating Brexit whilst I sethe with venom.
A collective "good riddance" from most of the EU.
Would love them to have dropped the flag at some point, in error obvs.😁
Apart from a time when the BNP appropriated the Union flag I don't ever remember feeling ashamed of its use as I do these days.
It's very sad, for me, a heart breaking symbolic moment.
Just like to say thanks to the brexit voters...
I have lost -
Freedom of movement
Free healthcare
A *ing huge lump of my pension fund
My retirement to the South of France
My self respect
Three very good clients for my business
My temper
I hope to * Scotland vote out as i will be relocating me, my family and my business
my passport definitely says Éire Ireland on the cover.
Others definitely say Bundesrepublik Deutschland, Konungariket Sverige and New Zealand Aotearoa. Mine says United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Point being?
I hope to **** Scotland vote out as i will be relocating me, my family and my business
It’s pretty well 6 months since we moved, our house build is underway (delayed thanks to COVID/Brexit) and we hope to be in by the summer.
Surprising number of English accents - working hard to get my Scottish one back.
Feeling very sad here too, mainly for the loss of opportunities for my boy when he's a bit older, and just the sheer dumb insular idiocy of the whole thing.
Feels like we have just rewound time by 50years. Tragedy unfolds in front of our eyes.
And here's how it ends/begins, not with a bang, but with a whimper. No disaster porn of trucks in queues, just the slow erosion of business opportunities. Trade barriers now exist everywhere, and our single market is reduced to England, Scotland and Wales.
So disappointing.
https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1344724827215683587
Have we done this yet?
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/dec/31/the-left-brexit-economic-uk
I've never agreed with Elliot's position on brexit, but it does raise some good points about the failure of neoliberalism and how the left need to be bolder and stop mourning their defeat. The trouble though is that labour will still be split on the issue for probably the next two elections as remainers are not going to be able to let it go and look forwards. We can already see here and elsewhere everyone digging deeper trenches, determined to pursue this stupid culture war to its inevitable and destructive conclusion.
If anyone still can't see that the only "opportunities" of brexit are yet more disaster capitalism and right-wing populism then there is little hope for them.