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arguing in bad faith by misrepresenting people
Only danny really, but he deserves it. 😄
And yet suddenly it’s all to do with brexit
I'm not sure if you've noticed but perhaps reread the thread title. Current affairs will be discussed in relation to it. To reiterate - no-one has said that the problems are entirely attributable to brexit. This is a notion completely of your own making.
We do agree on one thing though you'll no doubt be pleased to hear - raking over the coals if 2016 or even the last election is utterly futile.
Only danny really, but he deserves it.
I'll take that as a compliment from you.
If you're proud of selective (and I mean heavily selective- I.e. cutting off mid sentence) quoting and then arguing on the basis of that, then you revel in your awesumz. Well done. Veeeeery clever. 👏
On the other hand, I am happy that I can get you backed into a ridiculous, tortuous contortion within about five posts as you try to stick to your usual blather. You will then either:
A) Disappear for a bit until the dust settles.
B) Set up a strawman and fight that instead (and convince a minority that you are 'winning'). Before doing 'A' anyway.
😘
Apparently Johnson himself is in denial about the effects of his brexit deal on NI. so Daz is in good company
I cant see that any negotiations are likely to find a solution to the checks issue, the customs posts are still being built, Johnson is refusing any sort of summit & Frost is unlikely to back down, I can just see loyalist resentment simmering away to inevitibly flare up again in June for the orange order centenary & July for the NIP implementation
^^^
The 'la-la-la' fingers in ears approach from the current holders of some of the most venerated offices on earth (yep, believe it or not we used to be respected and looked up to as a nation) is going to hit a very riot-y brick wall very soon.
With all of Johnson's egotistical shit about carving himself a place in history with the likes of (spaff, spaff) Churchill, you would have thought he wouldn't want to be remembered as the man who reignited a NI civil war after twenty three years of peace - on the basis of a lie....
But then if your backers need their return on investment, then money talks, I guess. 🙄
There is no "money" in NI unlike Scotland which has Financial Services, Whisky, Oil, Tourism on a huge scale, Golf etc etc
Few if any of the Tory elite have any reason to concern themselves with the woes of NI.
Few if any of the Tory elite have any reason to concern themselves with the woes of NI.
The more extreme fringes can find ways to raise the profile of the place, though.
Which is always a worry.
I had a (very) mad idea whilst out on the road bike this afternoon*. What if the NI stuff is by design? What if reunification is the underlying goal? Here's a crazy scenario, The tories allow Scotland to secede, then offer Ireland the option of reunification. The price? Ireland leaving the EU and Scotland not joining to instead join a new north atlantic federation of independent states of the British Isles aligned with the US. The Scottish, Irish, and English nationalists all get what they want, with the support of the US. All it needs is the Loyalists to be thrown under the bus (or bought off). In geopolitical terms over a number of decades it makes quite a lot of sense.
*sorry I think way too much about shit whilst riding up Cragg Vale repeatedly 🙂
then offer Ireland the option of reunification
Well, now we know you never bothered to read the GFA. Or at least never understood it, or what it achieved for everyone in NI.
read the GFA
Are you joking? Life’s way too short for that bollocks. Have you read it?
BTW, did you miss the bit in that last post where I said it was a mad, stupid idea? Lighten up FFS.
Yes I read it. In 2016. Promoted by the old Brexit thread. It’s short, well written, and unusually easy to read for a political or diplomatic document.
I've read the GFA as well. I think it succeeds because of its clarity and brevity, there's little to none of the hedged conditions that let either side abuse it. Here you go -
While brexit may not be "the" reason for the current unrest it's plainly the one that's caused the cup to runneth over. As linked to above, even the "political wings" of the various prescribed organisations are stating that it's not a sectarian issue but one of a feeling, nothing more, that NI is being pushed away from the union.
There were/are four options regarding the status of NI post brexit, one is illegal, two are politically unpalatable and the fourth is a de facto border down the Irish Sea. Brexit dogma and the desire that nothing can be seen as wrong with brexit has led to this. Pure Johnson, failure to understand the problem, failure to read the details, distract and pass the blame.
You really don’t get very far into that document to see reasons why Brexit has triggered the current violence
I’ve read the GFA as well. I think it succeeds because of its clarity and brevity, there’s little to none of the hedged conditions that let either side abuse it.
Whaaaaa..... OK, try this one:
(ii) recognise that it is for the people of the island of Ireland alone, by
agreement between the two parts respectively and without external
impediment, to exercise their right of self-determination on the basis of
consent, freely and concurrently given, North and South, to bring about a
united Ireland, if that is their wish, accepting that this right must be
achieved and exercised with and subject to the agreement and consent of a
majority of the people of Northern Ireland;
Does this require:
- a majority in a referendum in the North and in a referendum in the South
- as above plus a majority in the island as a whole
- just a majority in the North and a majority in the island as a whole
And does there need to be agreement by referendum not only on the principle of re-unificaiton but also on the terms of the re-unification agreement (as to which similar questions arise, but I think that as a matter of the Irish constitution a referendum in the South would be required on the terms anyhow).
As has been noted above, it is a masterpiece of loose, aspitational wording where the only detail is in the parts about mechanisms for agreeing stuff in the future. Terms so loose don't need to be hedged about with conditions. That is why they are so loose, because there were so many areas where, had the parties tried to go into any detail, they would have got hung up on the exceptions and conditions (for example, the policing can was kicked down the road). So they found a form of words everyone could buy into, and stopped at that, leaving the difficult areas to be resolved later. Some of which were, but some of which remain difficult areas yet to be resolved.
The whole Brexit issue with the agreement is mainly to do with an interpretation of the broad direction implied in the agreement rather than on any detailed terms (it doesn't expressly deal with border customs infrastructure or the free movement of goods, for example).
– a majority in a referendum in the North and in a referendum in the South
This.
Which simple maths tells you also means the following.
– as above plus a majority in the island as a whole
You can't have majority votes in favour both north and south, and then not have a majority in favour across both populations combined. It's not possible.
I wonder if headbanger English Brexiteers would start asking “Why don’t we get a referendum on it?”
I saw a good docco yesterday where it was highlighted that 'power sharing' in NI is often really 'power splitting' so entire portfolios are given to one 'side' or the other. I don't think this was defined 100% in the GFA either, but it has become the adopted MO. There will have been a fair amount of this given the GFA's intent as a broad base for peaceful coexistence rather than a full nuts and bolts plan.
I can see there being an original intention to evolve power splitting into power sharing, but as so often happens, the status quo becomes ossified as no one wants to rock the boat when a feeling of marginally more stability is achieved.
All delicate stuff and requiring the intimate knowledge of grownups and handling with care and statesmanship.
Enter Alexander Boris De Pfeffel Johnson. Fibbing, frivolous child.
Khrushchev was once characterised as a petulant child playing with a loaded gun. Johnson is similar only he is playing with a hand grenade.
This.
Which simple maths tells you also means the following.
It is far more complicated than that. Does it imply a single island-wide referendum is needed, or will two separate ones do, where you look at the results of each? If the former, there would have to be a single bilingual ballot paper and some kind of central administration - best not even start down the road of nailing that lot down. But equally, co-ordinating two referenda (would they have to happen at the same time?) would require some organisation. The clause is a finely tuned bodge where republicans can look at it and pretend Ireland is a single entity, whilst unionists can look at it and see that the principle that the North is a separate country is maintained. Difficult detail likely to result in impassable disagreement is simply not addressed, and that runs through the whole thing.
It's very simple: two referendums, one in the North, one in the South, both need majorities, both need to happen at the same time.
I’m not absolutely sure, but I’m fairly certain it would require two separate polls. Could you imagine a, say, 60:40 Yes figure in the RoI dragging a say, 51:49 “No” vote in NI into a United Ireland?
(Just made up figures for illustration.)
This is an internet forum no? Where else can you be called a nazi appeaser/sympathiser for saying we should maybe listen to what millions of brexit voters are telling us?
It’s bad for people who work in the industry, but then the end of WWII was bad for people working in the ethnic cleansing industry
😂
@kelvin I agree "it" is simple as long as "it" does not include the drafting of the agreement, which is what started this - see @whitestone's post above.
The need for a majority is only mentioned in the context of the North. For the rest, what is required is "consent" of the people. Does this difference of language imply a different mechanism for obtaining consent? If not, what is the point of the final part of that paragraph? (Note how the final part uses the contentious phrase "Northern Ireland" whereas the rest talks simply about "the North" and "the South" - the form of words republicans prefer.) I assume the final words were insisted on by the unionist side because of concern about the interpretation of "consent" in the rest of the paragraph. There is also the point about agreement on the principle vs consent to the text of tbe unification agreement, which is left completely open. To argue that the Agreement is "well written" and "easy to read" is absurd, its tortuous drafting is clearly the result of negotiation and is often far from clear.
It is clear as to what it offers “both sides” in NI. If it’s woolier as to how consent is sought from those south of the border… politically that is utterly irrelevant. They would use a referendum though, and the result would be a forgone conclusion.
People have tried to flesh out a detailed path, if you really are interested: https://www.ucl.ac.uk/constitution-unit/research/elections-and-referendums/working-group-unification-referendums-island-ireland
kelvin
Full MemberIt’s very simple: two referendums, one in the North, one in the South, both need majorities, both need to happen at the same time.
Mmm. Seems logical to me to have the "will the republic let the north join them" referendum first tbh. Either one is dependent on the other but that's probably the less murdery/explosioney one.
It was written in to be “concurrent” to discourage the bigger party from seeming to push hard for unification by calling a referendum without or ahead of NI doing the same. It is one of many smart concessions made to make the GFA work for “both sides” in NI, to make them feel empowered rather than pushed and pulled by either of their bigger neighbours on both sides of the Irish Sea.
I can definitely see the sense of that, but, that doesn't really feel it reflects the real situation today- rather than push or pull, the republic's side of things is opening or closing a door, while the north's decision is to go through it or not. It has to work for both sides but it doesn't mean it is the same for both sides.
But going through all the upheaval of deciding whether or not to go through the door, then discovering it's locked, seems like a new sort of Bad Juju.
then discovering it’s locked,
I see the logic of what you’re saying too, and of course, one can never say never, but the chances of the RoI voting against are small. The agency of reunification belongs with the citizens of NI. While the Irish constitution was changed as a result of the referendum on the 1998 agreement (by a huge majority), it still contains a watered down aspiration towards a UI. I’m sure the odd dissenter would campaign against a UI in the RoI, but any Taoiseach, member of the the governing party or member of the second party of government, which would be Fíne Gael or Fianna Fáil, that turned down the opportunity for reunification and campaigned against it might as well emigrate to...I dunno...the Antarctic might be far enough. 😀
In short, I’d imagine the door is always open, subject to confirmation, but it’s the decision of NI citizens whether to walk through.
I listened to a good podcast about “preparing” for a border poll a few weeks ago on the Irish Times politics podcast feed. It was an interesting discussion. I’ll see if I can dig it out.
I have friends and business acquaintances both North and South, most regardless of religion or politics think UI is just a matter of time which may be accelerated slightly by Brexit.
At the moment NI feels poor when you are there and seems to have fallen behind the UK development wise over the last 20 years, i dont know why?
The South feels better but drift from Dublin and the likes of Cork it doesn't feel a lot different.
As a North East of England resident i have watched a similar stagnation around the Tyne Wear and Tees not so much a decline more a quiet abandonment. I think Rishi underpinned this at the budget.
Folks in NI need a better home than what is currently being provided and a UI might provide that as part of the EU
Sadly for us North Eastern folk we have no where to go.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56741000
we can employ people from all around the world," Sir James told the BBC."
Apart from a huge workforce right on our doorstep.
Another article pretending that the Pfizer vaccine doesn’t exist as well. It would be nice to believe that news just doesn’t travel to Singapore, but the reality is he’s just a self serving bullshiter, isn’t he.
From Dyson:
"We've got our freedom, we can make trade agreements with other countries outside Europe [and] we can employ people from all around the world,” Sir James told the BBC.
Which of those did our EU membership prevent? Since we left the EU we signed over 60 ‘continuity’ agreements. How could we have continued trade agreements with countries outside of Europe when Dyson claims we couldn’t have had them to begin with?
Sir James said the reason he had to move Dyson out to Asia was because Dyson's British suppliers "didn't want to expand with us".
British business refuse to expand and make more money?? I wonder how many British suppliers he actually uses?
Someone up there had it spot on, he is a massive bullshitter.
He's a self-serving twonk!
And like that other renowned self-serving twonk, Boris Johnson, he seems to deliver a different message depending on his audience, sometimes in complete contradiction to the last thing he said
Someone up there had it spot on, he is a massive bullshitter.
And a country member.
I saw a good docco yesterday where it was highlighted that ‘power sharing’ in NI is often really ‘power splitting’ so entire portfolios are given to one ‘side’ or the other. I don’t think this was defined 100% in the GFA either, but it has become the adopted MO. There will have been a fair amount of this given the GFA’s intent as a broad base for peaceful coexistence rather than a full nuts and bolts plan.
I recall reading an article back during the days of the 2010-2015 Conservative/LibDem coalition that stated this is a common way of handling coalitions. It allows the parties in the coalition to point to the achievements in the portfolios they managed and say "that was us" when campaigning. The article was arguing that because the two parties in the Westminster coalition did not do this, the LibDems were struggling to highlight their achievements and policies, while still getting blamed for their failures.
Back to NI...
“Need another month sir, Prince Philip’s dog ate my homework...”
https://twitter.com/tconnellyrte/status/1382243987143196673?s=21
I recall reading an article back during the days of the 2010-2015 Conservative/LibDem coalition that stated this is a common way of handling coalitions. It allows the parties in the coalition to point to the achievements in the portfolios they managed and say “that was us” when campaigning. The article was arguing that because the two parties in the Westminster coalition did not do this, the LibDems were struggling to highlight their achievements and policies, while still getting blamed for their failures.
Indeed, but the splitting off of complete portfolios means there will be divergence and conflict if the power sharing parties choose to, er, diverge and conflict...
Also, should some act of previously unthinkable nobheadishness occur (I.e. Brexit) some of those portfolios will assume greater or lesser emotive and political power. What Brexit is doing, on all levels, is disrupting the arrived at MO for keeping tensions in NI to a minimum.
Back to NI…
“Need another month sir, Prince Philip’s dog ate my homework…”
Doesn't make much difference does it?
The problem doesn't go away just because the fat, shambling oaf kicks the problem into the long grass. Unless this is just a ploy to try to get past marching season.
All that results is the same problem a bit later and all the other parties considerably more pissed off.
Well done Leavers!
🇬🇧🍑💩🤦♂️
🇪🇺💰🥂😂
🇬🇧🍑💩🤦♂️
🇪🇺💰🥂😂
Surely the EU/ Europeans in general doesn’t/don’t laugh, celebrate or do well out of Brexit? Those emojis just remind me of more of the same ‘them vs us’ (‘champagne elite’ vs ‘hard done-by/screwed-over Brits) divisive rhetoric that helped fuel the leave campaign ☹️ ?
Those emojis just look more of the same them vs us divisive rhetoric that helped fuel the leave campaign
I only do it in the hope of winding up any of the Brexiteers on here.
They are apt, though, when you take the UK companies that are setting up EU subsidiaries - extra red tape and bullshit caused by UK leads to jobs created in the EU which leads to (potentially) stalled job creation in the UK. If I was looking at taking on extra UK staff, but suddenly had to employ some EU workers and rent premises etc, I would probably think about canning my 'aspirational' UK people investment...
I'll try a bit of a different tack. How's this:
🇬🇧🍑💩🤦♂️
🇪🇺👉🇬🇧🙄
??
I only do it in the hope of winding up any of the Brexiteers on here.
Except they could just as easily have served as Leave propaganda. Heads up - I showed them Mrs P (without accompanying context of your post) and she thought the (emojigram?) was in support of Leave!!!
What I was saying the other day...
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/14/belfast-riots-brexit-good-friday-peace-deal
Pretty much the same thing as everyone else?
Edit: while telling everyone they were saying something different.
Someone got themselves a bit of a semi when they read the headline. 😂
From that link.
And if you read my comments you'll see that I also said it was destabilising.
Maybe including those comments in the post will help provide that context
Theres certainly nothing in that article that differs significantly from the consensus I'm perceiving from others in this thread.
UK companies that are setting up EU subsidiaries
On the news this morning or was it yesterday evening. They were interviewing the owner of a company who the government are touting as a success because they sell lots of food stuffs to brits in the EU. In reality he was saying that he'd laid off 40 staff and was setting up a warehouse in the EU.
touting as a success
His business might be a success, it is just that Brexshit has meant the jobs themselves have left the UK and, effectively, gone to the EU.
The strokers we currently have as a 'government' won't have even realised this is actually a bad story for Brexshit.
The ones who are in it for a quick buck for their mates know, but don't give a shit.
Clueless tossers like Redwood are just....clueless tossers.
Daz's article is a pretty grim summary of brexits effects on NI
Brexit is the opposite of reconciliation: it means standing apart rather than coming together, asserting distinctiveness over finding common ground. For those who still question the damage that the UK leaving the EU has done to the architecture of the Northern Ireland settlement, which was predicated on a healthy British-Irish relationship, look at the difficulty the two governments now have in simply agreeing to convene a formal meeting to discuss what is happening in Northern Ireland. For more than four decades, the margins of European council meetings offered a place for UK and Irish ministers to engage without formality and pressure. Not any more.
What Brexit is doing, on all levels, is disrupting the arrived at MO for keeping tensions in NI to a minimum.
NI is just the worst casualty... the MO for "Brexit" has little or nothing to do with leaving the EU and everything to do with creating tensions across the UK.
I can't think of many (even any) things the current Brexit cabinet have done that haven't been to divide the UK.
“Well, yes, but it's not about the football."
"You're saying that football is not about football?"
"It's the sharing," she said. "It's being part of the crowd. It's chanting together. It's all of it. the whole thing.”― Terry Pratchett, Unseen Academicals
"Well, yes, its not about the EU
You're saying Brexit isn't about the EU ?
Its the division, about the hate we can exploit. Its about saying we don't follow any laws and we do whatever we want both as a country and as individuals"
SteveXtC (bemused musings)
^ 👏🏼👏🏽👏🏾
What I was saying the other day…
What we were all saying the other day… while you set yourself up a lovely straw man to slag off to entertain yourself.
I suspect there must be an election in the making. The delays in import checks, possibly aligning the food standard thingy.
Election by December/January? Maybe with a new leader? March 2022?
After 12 days in customs Madame's new Brompton has been let out and so far made it to Carbon Blanc. I assume my translations of what paperwork was missing helped Brompton to sort it from the UK end. The wait time has been enough to completely rebuild an old one which will get passed on to junior when the new one arrives.
I suspect there must be an election in the making. The delays in import checks, possibly aligning the food standard thingy.
Perhaps but so long as the effects are blamed on someone else and the current government can divide people enough I can't see it helping.
The blame doesn't need to be credible .. blame the Irish, blame the French.. blame furriners who want us to follow rules... it's pretty much the same narrative as pre-referendum.
Those that bought into Brexit are not looking for actual answers but someone to blame, preferably furriners.
Johnson will try & bluff it out, its what he always does & itll work
He will concede to the EU & align on sanitary checks for NI & still claim it as a victory
his supporters will buy it
After 12 days in customs
That’s just the Evil French customs just attempting to thwart the glory of Brexit 🙂
dudeofdoom
That’s just the Evil French customs just attempting to thwart the glory of Brexit
Sadly that is the message enough people will buy.
Johnson will try & bluff it out, its what he always does & itll work
He will concede to the EU & align on sanitary checks for NI & still claim it as a victory
his supporters will buy it
It doesn't really matter how he does it so long as he blames someone else and blames it on furriners trying to make us follow rules. The rules don't even need to exist (IOM kippers anyone), he'll just lie and enough people will buy it.
That’s just the Evil French customs just attempting to thwart the glory of Brexit
Or the evil of a notoriously useless delivery company. They are currently looking for my parcel, and you only look for something you've lost. Meanwhile on the French equivalent of Gumtree a Brompton identical to the one I've ordered has just appeared without a price, and the seller hasn't got a clue about the bike because the description (in poor French) doesn't match the photo. I've informed Brompton, it's not their fault, or mine 🙁
https://www.leboncoin.fr/velos/1963665094.htm?ac=1481102916
Just as well I've done up the old one, I can't see the new one arriving anytime soon, but I could have it wrong.
Listening to Brexiteer bell-end Bernard Jenkin on QT, the problems in NI are nothing to do with Brexit and we should all just move on
Apparently the border down the Irish Sea is the EU’s fault for not allowing the UK to implement the border between north and south that David Davis suggested.
The fact that that was a fantasy that only existed in that dimwits head and relied on technology that doesn’t actually exist, nor will it, is neither here nor there.
No blame can be laid at the door of the man who negotiated and signed THE UK up to the NIP while simultaneously assuring everyone that there would be no border in the Irish Sea, obviously
It’s all that nasty EU’s fault
Nice to see Brexit cloud-cuckoo-land hasn’t evolved at all since reality intruded
They’re just doubling down on the same tired old bullshit that becomes less and less credible by the day
This has turned into an 'Everything that goes wrong is the fault of brexit' along with, or usually followed by 'We told you so' type of thread.
Vent here....
In the case of Northern Ireland and the threat to the GFA, it is the fault of Brexit and, yes, we told you so
I found out the other other day that all our Export Health Certificates signed off by our vet are being paid for by the government. No wonder exports "rose" in February. The scheme has been extended 3 months as well.
This has turned into an ‘Everything that goes wrong is the fault of brexit’ along with, or usually followed by ‘We told you so’ type of thread.
Vent here….
Counter arguments are welcome, as are the challenges to those counter arguments.
This has turned into an ‘Everything that goes wrong is the fault of brexit’ along with, or usually followed by ‘We told you so’ type of thread.
Vent here….
Well my knee's giving me gip, that's got to be the fault of bre ..., actually no it was me slipping on mud and twisting it.
Given the resources available to the pro-brexit camp don't you think it's strange that there's so few "Look at this! We couldn't have done that when in the EU" type stories? Instead all the energy is spent in deflecting attention and passing the buck - "Anyone's fault (especially the EU) but brexit."
In the case of NI an, at times, uneasy truce is under threat primarily because of the brexit cheerleaders not understanding (being kind) or not caring about the implications of what they sought.
Listening to Brexiteer bell-end Bernard Jenkin on QT, the problems in NI are nothing to do with Brexit and we should all just move on
Was he pulled up by anyone?
I found out the other other day that all our Export Health Certificates signed off by our vet are being paid for by the government. No wonder exports “rose” in February. The scheme has been extended 3 months as well.
No, paid for by me and YOU!
Out of curiosity, what's the cost of the certificates/vet vs the value of the exports?
And if your company had to pay, would the exports still be viable?
This has turned into an ‘Everything that goes wrong is the fault of brexit’ along with, or usually followed by ‘We told you so’ type of thread.
Vent here….
In the case of Northern Ireland and the threat to the GFA, it is the fault of Brexit and, yes, we told you so
Couldn't have put it better.
Given the resources available to the pro-brexit camp don’t you think it’s strange that there’s so few “Look at this! We couldn’t have done that when in the EU” type stories? Instead all the energy is spent in deflecting attention and passing the buck – “Anyone’s fault (especially the EU) but brexit.”
This is worth repeating. Lots.
There is STILL not one tangible, quantifiable benefit that's been realised...
More and more I think of this clip from Red Dwarf when I hear people talking about solving the problems of Brexit.
Replace "The Cat" with "The Boris" or any other deluded politician and replace "Kryten" with pretty much any normal person.....
The Cat : Why don't we drop the defensive shields?
Kryten : A superlative suggestion, sir. With just two minor flaws. One, we don't have any defensive shields. And two, we don't have any defensive shields. Now I realise that technically speaking that's only one flaw but I thought that it was such a big one that it was worth mentioning twice.
The Cat : Good point, well made.
There is STILL not one tangible, quantifiable benefit that’s been realised…
Er tampons.
Unless we’ve missed it.
The reality is that ‘we’ perceive Brexit as a problem but to Boris and chums it really isn’t.
In or out, it’s always the eu’s fault.
I thought it was a Pandora’s box but it’s not,it’s Schrödinger's box and they’re putting you in it 🙂
Listening to Brexiteer bell-end Bernard Jenkin on QT, the problems in NI are nothing to do with Brexit and we should all just move on
Was he pulled up by anyone?
He was, but like all the rest of the Brexiteers they just keep ignoring all evidence and parroting the same old patent nonsense. In this case that it was the EU who 'forced' the UK to put a border down the Irish Sea. None of it was Boris's fault for signing an agreement that did what he solemnly promised he would never ever do? Oh no. Its all the nasty EU's fault. They're 'punishing' us for leaving, apparently
Its like a religious cult
Counter arguments are welcome, as are the challenges to those counter arguments.
He was, but like all the rest of the Brexiteers they just keep ignoring all evidence and parroting the same old patent nonsense.
As I said, Brexit has nothing to do with leaving the EU, rather it is simply a way to manipulate the electorate.
As someone pointed out earlier with the LibDem coalition government that was the old model.
The new model is to divide the electorate because with enough hate you can get people to vote on a single issue and even better you don't need to deliver that promise, simply blame others why it isn't or simply lie.
In my constituency that voted overwhelmingly to stay in the EU we revoted in a ultra right wing Tory MP because ... well because Labour and LibDems couldn't get their act together.
No MP in the same party as Corbin as party leader would never have been elected in our constituency but labour were trying to steal non Tory votes right up to the end of polling. In the end they got their way by about 200 votes giving the constituency to the Tory's.
On the other hand the Tory's got elected simply because they were willing to lie and target each divided group with empty promises.
The only election promise the Tory's have kept (as far as I can see) is to break the law where they like and to limit the power of the courts to hold them to account over that.
We pig headedly exerted the right to leave our borders open ... (for example) because closing them like the rest of the EU would show it was a lie. We pig headedly pretended we hadn't received an email to take part in PPE procurement ... because if we took part we couldn't then blame the EU.
Blame is most important when you promise something you can't do.
None of it was Boris’s fault for signing an agreement that did what he solemnly promised he would never ever do?
Yet he has (re)created hatred and divide that he will thrive on at the ballot box.
The more divided and the more hatred the more he can get people to vote over a single issue and so long as you can blame everyone else why care.
p7eaven
Counter arguments are welcome, as are the challenges to those counter arguments.
More like the Meaning of Life condom on my John Thomas IMHO.
Brexit has nothing to do with leaving the EU
Not to escape the EU closing the tax dodging loophole in Jan 2021 then?
Not to escape the EU closing the tax dodging loophole in Jan 2021 then?
Only in part and not specifically looking at it in 2021 back... because sooner or later there will be other international tax dodging laws or just the extension of the EU one to other companies that operate in the EU.
I think this influenced the timing but the only consistent "policy/theme" from the people currently in government I can think of (and happy to have them suggested) is
"The UK does not follow laws either domestic or international"
Looking at it as a whole since the referendum it seems the plan is to become a pariah state ... in the same way as say Libya in the 90's... so the "bigger picture" Brexit was just part of a new order of "governance by division" and Brexit was just a way to create the division.
The "governance by division" is a way of me putting words to the model of advertising by division applied to governance. In other words the idea its easier to sell your product by making people hate the competitor or paying for fake news stories that will polarise the electorate.
(STW example being cyclist hits car/pedestrian)... the clicks and comments will be worth more if they create hatred than understanding. The more you can get 2 groups fighting/hating/not listening the more the fake news is worth. (or entitled dog owners would be another example)
The "government" really only want your "click" on the election cards. They don't need you to like them so long as you or I put a mark in their box.