[Closed] Shots fired outside Westminster

Mr Woppit - Member

How come these religious people aren't being terrorist? I mean after all, they ARE religious...

Well the obvious answer to anyone not trying to 'virtue signal' is that they have a different interpretation of their ambiguous religeous texts.

As was pointed out by binners some time ago, these things are just convenient hooks on which to hang a basic human impulse - thankfully not shared by the majority...

I was going to say much the same thing. If religion magically disappeared tomorrow, we'd still have nutters. We'd still have causes, we'd still have excuses for people to do bad things. And we'd still be looking for things to transition blame onto for as to why people do bad things (today Islam, tomorrow Grand Theft Auto) regardless of whether it's factually accurate or not.

Religious extremist kills five and critically injures 40 more in the name of religion, but don't discuss religion here. That would be inappropriate.

It depends on the nature of the discussion really, I suppose. Is it relevant to the discussion and respectful of the situation, or is is a tedious willy-waving contest between keyboard warriors?

Then shouldnt they be rotating people out of sentry duty a lot Max? Id be interested to hear what the rock ape has to say, I'm sure he's used to doing mind numbing sentry duty.

But in general, isn't this why it's best to do things in numbers even greater than a pair - more eyes - more likely that one of you will react quickly.

What this means is that yesterday was like any day in London, a noise from the street isn't often a terror attack, and man walking up to you generally ISN'T a terrorist, who's going to try to kill you. Normality is er, the norm, and people act appropriately.

Yeah I get all that, but only a few yards away a car crashes at speed into a bunch of tourists, killing and maiming and making a god awful noise and you'd have thought it might just have put them on edge? As I say, its just speculation and there may be all manner of reasons why not. Poor b@stard!

Id be interested to hear what the rock ape has to say, I'm sure he's used to doing mind numbing sentry duty.

Used to your mind numbing comments more like!

I think it's also worth noting that the reason only 4 people were murdered yesterday is because of our countries hard restriction on guns.

Yesterdays attacker carried a knife, not a gun, he killed more people with his car than with his knife, and when he got out of his car, after catching the one unfortunate Police officer off guard, he was quickly neutralised by security forces.

Now, just for one minute, imagine the exact same scenario where he had a pistol, or worse, a semi or full automatic firearm. That situation plays out daily in the USA, where rich white and powerful men defend their stupid right to carry arms, and use it to excuse the deaths of literally thousands of people every day...

Are we expecting a statement from the head of Hyundai UK stating that the terrorist actions aren't in anyway representative of the majority of Hyundai drivers, the vast majority of whom are proud to call themselves British and wish to live peacefully alongside drivers of other cars (even Kias)?

Just asking.

I didnt mean to offend rockape.

Im just a little pissed at a policeman dying and the platitudes being spoken by the politicians who cut their funding.

The cause of terrorism is western aggression and uneven distribution of wealth and resources

The tool that is used to push those desperate people over the edge into a state of mind where they are prepared to martyr themselves is religion.

I think it's also worth noting that the reason only 4 people were murdered yesterday is because of our countries hard restriction on guns.

Rockape63
Yeah I get all that, but only a few yards away a car crashes at speed into a bunch of tourists, killing and maiming and making a god awful noise and you'd have thought it might just have put them on edge? As I say, its just speculation and there may be all manner of reasons why not. Poor b@stard!

We know that, because we know the full picture after the event. In real time, confusion and lack of information become critical. The "fog of war" is also prevalent in piece time.

So, from that policemans position, could he actually see the crashed car, the man running with his knife? Cars crash all the time, in london there is always a siren, horn screach of brakes or other commotion.

Our brains often fail to put 2 and 2 together, because they use past experience to provide the most probably outcome, and normality is not a terrorist attack.

It should also be noted the classic system of 'defence in depth' quite clearly worked yesterday in this case. Unfortunately, if you are in the front line of that system, you are more vulnerable by default. Here, our uniformed, unarmed police officer acted, as intended, as that first line, and unfortunately paid the price. But the buffer he provided allowed the second line to stop any further penetration.

"Are we expecting a statement from the head of Hyundai UK"

A point that needs to be made more IMHO.

Sounds like he lived in a flat - what are the flat dwelling community doing about this problem in their midst.

He was wearing clothes, yet garment wearers are silent about this outrage caused by one of their own.

The only group who need to address this are the "murdering ***** with personality disorders" community and I don't think we'll be hearing much from them.

Again, apologies rockape - as I didnt actually apologise in the previous post.

"Are we expecting a statement from the head of Hyundai UK"

A point that needs to be made more IMHO.

Sounds like he lived in a flat - what are the flat dwelling community doing about this problem in their midst.

He was wearing clothes, yet garment wearers are silent about this outrage caused by one of their own.

The only group who need to address this are the "murdering ***** with personality disorders" community and I don't think we'll be hearing much from them.

Totally agree. I saw on TV this morning that they had someone on from the Muslim council. Does he really need to actually condemn someone doing this just because they are linked to his religion. Can people really not work that out for themselves?

(no answers please as I know the depressing answer)

Armchair heroes who have watched too many movies.

They stopped the attacker quickly, everyone did their job incredibly well. Be thankful for these people.

IS tv(who would have known?) have claimed IS are responsible.

The only group who need to address this are the "murdering ***** with personality disorders" community

My point. Entirely.

The cause of terrorism is western aggression and uneven distribution of wealth and resources

The tool that is used to push those desperate people over the edge into a state of mind where they are prepared to martyr themselves is religion.

He was British born and lived in Birmingham.

So?

Well, I am just wondering what western aggression pushed this poor desperate man over the edge.
A certain type of egotist will always find a cause to kill people who refuse to submit to what he believes in.

G5604 - it's more a case of hoping the bobby on the beat gets the right resources and treatment.

I would guess that the fella in some way identifies with people in other countries that are victims of capitalism

The only point that I'm clumsily trying to make is that blaming terrorism on religion is taking a very child like view

You're right though.. we see that strange egotism of the unfulfilled man forcing their view on others on here, all day every day

"The so-called Islamic State group has said it was behind the attack."

[url] http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-39363297 [/url]

He was British born and lived in Birmingham.

Hang on, has his identity been confirmed?

The last I heard, they were saying it was Terry Brooks but then that was retracted on the grounds that, well, it wasn't him at all and TB is in prison. Has there been another statement since?

From the link above, Cougar: "The Westminster attacker was British-born and known to the police and intelligence services, the prime minister has revealed."

Laura Kuenssberg just said (on daily politics) that the two plain clothes policemen who shot the attacker were Michael Fallon's personal protection officers, not guards stopping people from entering the house, so it could have been a lot worse if they werent there looking after Mr. Fallon. 😯

Cougar - yes; TM made statement in parliament this morning; identity known to police and intelligence services but not being disclosed yet.
He was investigated several years over 'violent' extremism'; described as '....peripheral and not part of current intelligence picture'.

frankconway - Member

IS tv(who would have known?) have claimed IS are responsible.

Of course they have, they also claimed responsibility for that fire at the Eiffel Tower.

Mr Woppit - Member
The only group who need to address this are the "murdering ***** with personality disorders" community
My point. Entirely.

Said it before, but I wish we (society, the media) would stop legitimising these events by describing them as ideologically-driven/terrorism/lone wolf attacks. They should should just be described as mass murders and those who perpetrate them as just plain old murderers.

I missed that, cheers both.

Are we expecting a statement from the head of Hyundai UK stating that the terrorist actions aren't in anyway representative of the majority of Hyundai drivers, the vast majority of whom are proud to call themselves British and wish to live peacefully alongside drivers of other cars (even Kias)?

It looks like the attacker was a Birmingham Asian. My wife is from Birmingham so I'll also be calling on her and her family to condemn yesterday's attacks.

Those folk who are questioning the coppers response have you ever been in emergency situations? While those I have been in are no threat to my life I have been in medical emergencies and despite having done it a few times and been well trained when the brown stuff hits the ventilation unit its astonishing what basic mistakes you make and how easy it is to be shocked into stasis / panic.

Said it before, but I wish we (society, the media) would stop legitimising these events by describing them as ideologically-driven/terrorism/lone wolf attacks. They should should just be described as mass murders and those who perpetrate them as just plain old murderers.

no, they shouldn't.

They should should just be described as mass murders and those who perpetrate them as just plain old murderers.

Yeah perhaps you could if it weren't for that ****ing great elephant in the room.

Tj, I just think that its a bit harsh as a society to ask PERHAPS relatively soft (compared to some) unarmed coppers to guard such a gigigantic target full of people that most of the country loathe. If I worked that job I'd be counting my days expecting one day to meet my maker via the medium of a truck bomb.

It seems more like a job for retired special forces types.

I guess they chose to do it but that still doesnt make it sit right with me.

I think this is made worse by the fact that the Parliament building is not really fit for purpose and is being used for tourism and image purposes. Parliament should be located aomewhere rural with security like Porton Down.

I agree Tom - but some folk seemed to be questioning why the cops did or didn't do various things and just from my peripheral involvement in emergency situations I know how hard it is to respond properly even when well trained and practised

Again, apologies rockape - as I didnt actually apologise in the previous post.

don't worry about it....thought you were having a needless pop, thats all!

Yeah perhaps you could if it weren't for that ****ing great elephant in the room.

I suppose by that you are referring to Islam.

I further suppose that you haven't read any of the previous posts where this has been discussed at length, concluding that the particular religion has nothing to to with it.

There is no elephant.

Tj, I just think that its a bit harsh as a society to ask PERHAPS relatively soft (compared to some) unarmed coppers to guard such a gigigantic target full of people that most of the country loathe. If I worked that job I'd be counting my days expecting one day to meet my maker via the medium of a truck bomb.

It seems more like a job for retired special forces types.

I guess they chose to do it but that still doesnt make it sit right with me.

I don't think i've read as much shite as i've read in this thread. PC Palmer was a highly experienced Police officer of 15 years service and prior to that he served with Royal Artillery (as an ex-artilleryman myself - 7 Para RHA), he wasn't some young lad who didn't know what he was doing, the guys working for Parliamentary and Diplomatic Protection are experienced officers, you only have to look at how quickly the situation was quelled, despite the huge number of innocent bystanders they were surrounded by.

It beggars belief that you feel after having watched no doubt a few "SAS heroes" documentaries on TV that you have the experience to comment on what he did wrong and that we have a surplus of "special forces types" just knocking around to stand on the door and protect everyone.

I'm sure what he did, he did out of civic duty and that when he left his family that morning, they would of expected him to come back that night and that is what should be remembered, the world has lost a good person and a family have lost a husband and father.

IF you can't say anything of intelligence or at least out of a slight bit of experience, then don't say anything at all perhaps?

I further suppose that you haven't read any of the previous posts where this has been discussed at length, concluding that the particular religion has nothing to to with it.

I failed to see that conclusion...

I am happy for Edukator and Woppit to criticise religious violence.

I am not happy for Edukator to claim that Islam is intrinsically violent and it's Islam's fault that we have terrorism.

Fair enough Scud, I just hope they are properly resourced that is all.

I did capitalise "perhaps" - so thanks for educating me.

I do wonder about the ethics of keeping Parliament in its current location though.

"Yeah perhaps you could if it weren't for that ****ing great elephant in the room."

Seems to me these people are usually drug takers, dropouts, petty crims.

What they rarely turn out to be are good Muslims.

Like I said earlier.. blaming terrorism on religion is the thought process of a daft kid..

It does however suit the atheist fundamentalist narrative

I am happy for Edukator and Woppit to criticise religious violence.

I am not happy for Edukator to claim that Islam is intrinsically violent and it's Islam's fault that we have terrorism.

The last act of terror against MPs in this country that I recall (just under a year ago) was certainly not Islamic in any sense (not a good Muslim, bad Muslim or any other sort of Muslim).

Internet tough guys, calling dead policeman soft - is there anything more pathetic?