[Closed] Breaking news - Lib Dem - Tim Farron has resigned.

Poly - thanks for the correction / knowledge. even if it means I must moderate my position 🙂

mudshark
a number of vicars are openly gay, but they are meant to stay celibate.

Hence Farrons " homosexuality is not a sin" but refusing to say if gay sex was a sin - weasel words

retro83 - Member

Mr Woppit - Member
Religious bigot fails to square his leadership of liberal values with his loathing of gay people.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out...

Loathing of gay people? That must be why he consistently voted in favour of gay marriage and gay rights then.

Check his voting record - voted against on occasion and absented himself from crucial votes. Voted for allowing discrimination against gay folk

but how a married couple can claim to live hundreds of miles apart so they can both live in their own constituencies is more than a bit odd.

Bearing in mind that they both spend 1/2 their "working" lives in Westminster its not as odd as it seems. Plenty of people work offshore or overseas for protracted periods, and indeed people I know who "live" somewhere very different from where the "work" - lodging there for 4 nights a week.

My MP was raised and lived in the town, and continues to live here.

Her husband is a Welsh MP, who she met while at Westminster. He is from Wales and lives there.

As far as I know, from Monday to Thursday, while Parliament is in session, they live together in London. At weekends, they return to their constituencies. It's just the reverse of what most MPs do.

Loathing of gay people? That must be why he consistently voted in favour of gay marriage and gay rights then.

Check his voting record - voted against on occasion and absented himself from crucial votes. Voted for allowing discrimination against gay folk

This was the issue for me. His voting record doesn't match his words.

mudshark - Member
...As for the bible and homosexuality - its not mentioned in the New Testament which is what guides most Christians, love of all people is the prime rule here....

Aye, the Old Testament is pretty much a manual for genocide which we have been pretty good at while spreading civilisation and Christianity. It's a bit slack that we haven't burnt any witches lately.

I always thought the most important bit in the New Testament is love thy neighbour.

Aye, the Old Testament is pretty much a manual for genocide

and plenty of other completely irrelevant shit such as these classics;

You shall not plow with an ox and a donkey together.
You shall not wear a material mixed of wool and linen together.
You shall make yourself tassels on the four corners of your garment with which you cover yourself
Oh, and don't go having gay sex now

Theresa May has a record of voting against or abstaining from equalities legislation, yet receives far less scrutiny than Farron.

She's a Tory.

He's supposed to be Liberal.

She's a Tory.

He's supposed to be Liberal.

She's the Prime minister, and was Home Secretary, serving in a government that introduced same sex marriage.

Its not hypocritical for a tory to be illiberal. Its is for a liberal - hence the scrutiny

You shall not plow with an ox and a donkey together.

That is not what I would personally do, but if others wish to plow with oxen and donkeys, that is their choice and I fully respect it.

Its not hypocritical for a tory to be illiberal. Its is for a liberal - hence the scrutiny

Is he illiberal, though? I'm not convinced that accusation is supported by his voting record, which is what counts in my book. May was part of a government that claimed to be socially liberal (and tories can be either) but her voting record is mixed.

His voting record and public pronouncements show he is an illiberal bigot. He voted for a very restrictive amendment to the abortion act. He voted for allowing discrimination against gay couples, he absented himself from votes for gay marriage, he publicly said that faith healing should be given the same respect as modern medicine etc etc.

Here is his voting record: https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/11923/tim_farron/westmorland_and_lonsdale/votes#social

And Theresa May's.
https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/10426/theresa_may/maidenhead/votes#social

I'm not particularly inclined to defend him, but the criticism is over the top IMO.

ransos
https://stavvers.wordpress.com/2017/04/20/tim-farrons-homophobic-and-anti-choice-voting-history-in-easily-shareable-format/

to be a liberal and vote for discrimination in public service against gays is simply indefensible.

To be intolerant and then to complain that others are being intolerant to you is hypocritical.

to be a liberal and vote for discrimination in public service against gays is simply indefensible.

Who's defending him? I think that his voting record isn't quite as portrayed (as my link above shows) and the criticism is over the top. That's all.

Ransos - and as my link shows his voting record is not what it seems once you look a little closer

Can I say it again. He voted to make it lawful to discriminate against gay people when you are a public service provider. that is an awful position to take no matter what your political persuasion in this day - for a liberal its unforgivable. He thinks it acceptable for public servants to discriminate against gay folk

tjagain - Member

Its not hypocritical for a tory to be illiberal

Though it is hypocritical for May to claim to be a christian and yet run that party.

Ransos - and as my link shows his voting record is not what it seems once you look a little closer

I reviewed all of his votes on this issue. What did I miss?

A waste, there's a high probability he's a victim of his parents brainwashing (that's usually how it goes). Religious indoctrination of children should be made illegal, adults can make there own minds up.

Life of moral turmoil anyone?

Ransos - the times he absented himself. Read the analysis I posted. Gives a very different impression. I am sorry but voting against equal rights on many occasions as he has done is not acceptable nor is absenting yourself because your religious conviction puts you at odds with your parties stance

Dirtydog - IIRC it wasn't - he found god for himself IIRC

Ransos - the times he absented himself. Read the analysis I posted. Gives a very different impression. I am sorry but voting against equal rights on many occasions as he has done is not acceptable nor is absenting yourself because your religious conviction puts you at odds with your parties stance

He voted for equal rights on six occasions, abstained three times, and against equal rights on one occasion. I don't defend his actions, but he's no Theresa May.

No 'cos he is a hypocrite - leading the liberals from an illiberal position whereas May is a tory running the tory party - her behaviour is normal for her party, his is not

No 'cos he is a hypocrite - leading the liberals from an illiberal position whereas May is a tory running the tory party - her behaviour is normal for her party, his is not

You think the Lib Dems are socially liberal? Really?

In reality, all of the main UK parties occupy a relatively small space in terms of their social policies.

They are supposed to be.

They are supposed to be.

They're usually a bit more liberal than the Tories, which isn't the same thing as actually being liberal. Though it's worth pointing out that the Tories have introduced liberal legislation (gay marriage) whereas Labour were often keen on authoritarian legislation (RIPA, ID cards). It's a mistake to conflate parties' perceived economic policies with their social policies.

Dirtydog - IIRC it wasn't - he found god for himself IIRC

Aye, according to Google he found God in his teenage years.

not true I did politics A level with him and he was not religous at this point then went to Newcastle Uni and was also not religous there - mate did the same degree as him there
EDIT: just seen a quote where he claims it happened at 18 - if it did he was not very vocal about it and it definitely did not happen at college.
No idea when it happened now.

As for the bible and homosexuality - its not mentioned in the New Testament which is what guides most Christians

How about this bit from the New testament

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Essentially we live in a time when the majority of western Christians pick ans choose what bits of it they believe from the bit on gays, to contraception to any other myriad of dubious moral guidance it gives. We should not mistake this reality for it not being in the Bible or gods word.

Revelation is particularly scathing about what god will do to those churches that do this....the god of love will be going on a bit of a rampage.

What tyres will he be on - Purgatorys?

And the Twittersphere suggests the LibDems are in talks with the Tories about helping them out.....

Essentially we live in a time when the majority of western Christians pick ans choose what bits of it they believe from the bit on gays, to contraception to any other myriad of dubious moral guidance it gives. We should not mistake this reality for it not being in the Bible or gods word.

But we should celebrate that, yes? Seems a bit churlish to point out that the bible orders christians to kill gay people and use that as a weapon to beat Farron with. Unless you know that he advocates killing gay people, of course.

And the Twittersphere suggests the LibDems are in talks with the Tories about helping them out.....

That would be an act of political genius if they could pull that off.

But we should celebrate that, yes?

Seems a bit churlish to point out that the bible orders christians to kill gay people and use that as a weapon to beat Farron with. Unless you know that he advocates killing gay people, of course.

Personally I dont really see how he squares the two goals of christanity and liberalism whilst staying faithful to them both. The tenants of faith of the doctrines are often at opposite ends- I think he seemed to be hinting at the same point tbh in his speech.

richpenny - thats the trouble - he believes every word of the bible is 100% true

Scotroutes I would be suprised. After all it worked out so well for them last time

richpenny - thats the trouble - he believes every word of the bible is 100% true

But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.

He believes that to

Loads of biblical references to men being above women/ women being subordinate to man

richpenny - thats the trouble - he believes every word of the bible is 100% true

So he's up for killing gay people, right? If that's the case, clearly the journalists let him off a bit lightly. That would make a good headline.

As he said its either all right or all wrong and he is either a bad christian or a bad liberal
I am not sure anyone actually thinks he wants to kill them so I am not sure what is the point in addressing that straw man.

How is it a straw man? Aren't you and TJ claiming that he believes everything in the bible to be literally the word of god? Someone previously posted that bit about smiting gays or somesuch. So does he believe it or not?

Religion and politics in the same thread. If it turns out that Farron has an Audi TT with a log burner in it we might as well close the forum.

RichPenny - Member

Someone previously posted that bit about smiting gays or somesuch. So does he believe it or not?

I think he does. But I also think he's an intelligent, perceptive, empathetic man living in 2017 who understands that life can be a conflict between your personal convictions and the world you see, and the people you share it with, and that your actions are influenced by more than your faith. And I think he's done battle with that and tried to make it work for him, and ultimately when he couldn't find a balance that he was comfortable with as a party leader, resigned rather than try to force his views on others, or give them up and be a hypocrite. "I believe this is wrong but as party leader that doesn't matter" is a reasonable position but in the end it doesn't seem to be what he wants.

I don't agree with his apparent personal position. In fact, I find it a pretty incomprehensible and occasionally an affront to common decency. But in a world of hypocrites, "religious" people who speak piously and act the opposite, people who use faith to justify whatever they personally want to do, and politicians with no moral compass whatsoever, I think he could have done worse. And I think standing down on principle deserves respect. Living with and loving an ancient religion in the modern world must be a daily struggle

I have no time at all for fake religious people- your Theresa Mays who claim to be christian then ignore everything Jesus had to say. Do it, or don't. I struggle with the "I believe this bit of my religion but not that bit" thing, too- "that bit is the LITERAL WORD OF GOD and you must not stand in my way while I act on it regardless of the harm it may cause. But that bit is allegorical so I'll ignore it. No don't question me". As far as I'm concerned, you either believe your religion or you don't, if you believe 90% of it you don't believe it, you're not a christian (or whatever), you're just some guy with some stuff, I'll take you as seriously as a cyclist who only posts on internet forums and never rides. But farron isn't any of those things, he's got true faith and he's trying to make it work.

I am claiming nothing - its a direct quote from the man himself.

Hence his difficulties in reconciling his religion with his party. Another lib dem peer has now publicly criticised him for his views on homosexuality.

Tim Farron was right to resign as Liberal Democrat leader because of his "fundamentally illiberal and prejudiced views" on gay sex, former Lib Dem minister David Laws has said.

You cannot be a leader of a liberal party while holding fundamentally illiberal and prejudiced views which fail to respect our party's great traditions of promoting equality for all our citizens."

What NW said

What tyres will he be on - Purgatorys?

🙂

To be intolerant and then to complain that others are being intolerant to you is hypocriticaL

That was exactoy Farron's point. He demonstrated tolerance in supporting gay marriage against personal beliefs but others are intolerent of him. TBH I see that all the time here especially with regard to religion from athiests / non-believers. As @ransos pointed out the left (especially harder ieft) have a long track record of intolerance, much of their mantra is about central control and enforcing "one size fits all". Look at student/hard left politics and "non platforming" those they disagree with

man you are like a broken record

the left has been responsible for the progressive legislation that brought about the MW, equal pay act , gay rights etc

Name one that came from the right

You are right though the left are intolerant of hypocrites and bigots

I cannot fathom why you dont get on with them
As for tolerate the religous I dont care what they do in the same way I dont care what you eat. when you try and influence what I eat then i care
They do try to influence society so I do care what they think as it does affect the world I live in

Its not like i want them to be put to death for not being an atheist so i realise i have a long way to go before i reach their levels of intolerance. Personally i just want them to keep their private beliefs in a non existent entity private and not to decide public policy based on the big book that they believe some bits off.

I also dont think they should get special dispensation to be exempt from equality legislation so they can continue to be bigots whilst lecturing me on morality.

Buyllshine Jamba - he is intolerant in many ways even bigoted and that does not sit well with leading the liberal party

He voted to allow public officials to discriminate against gay folk. thats an intolerant veiwpoint

Its back to " religion is like a penis. Its fine to have one and be proud of it. Its not acceptable to wave it around in public and to try to thrust it down the throats of others"

I think he does. But I also think he's an intelligent, perceptive, empathetic man

I simply don't believe you. Genuinely I don't. You think it's possible for an intelligent, perceptive, empathetic man to want all gay people dead?

How about the bits of the bible that contradict each other? Surely it's not actually possible to believe all of it to be true?

Should make it clear that I'm a liberal and not a fan of his either.

I think you will need to grill tim on what he means rather than ask us to interpret it

But you've been telling me what he believes. Don't tell me you haven't even spoken about it 🙄

He said something it got quoted *if you want to know what this means on every ecclesiastical matter - given you accept the book is often contradictory- then you really will have to ask him . I am sorry it upsets you that i cannot read his mind I can only quote what he has said.

Christianity is not a bit true. It's either wrong or utterly compellingly true"?

at what point can you become intolerant ?
Racism?
Homophobia?
Child abuse?

Everyone has a line at which there are opinions and views they will not tolerate - it does not make us all hypocrites

Tolerance is great but it is not without limits as some views are odious. We may not agree on which ones but surely we all agree on that

Just not really a fan of Northwind's view that people can't pick and choose. I think it's better to let the prevailing social views mould and shape religious people, rather than insist it's all or nothing. Too afraid that they'll choose all 🙁

In what way is my post hypocritical mefty? Nice line in personal abuse there as well.

I say and mean exactly what I say - thats not hypocritical.

I am perfectly happy for people to believe whatever they want but when people like farron use their religion to justify discrimination then I will say its wrong and loudly so.

Farron voted to allow public servants to discriminate against gay couples. thats bigotry and intolerance

All this tolerance stuff for me is a red herring. For me homosexuals should not be living a disapproved of life but be 'tolerated' in 21st century Britain - plain and simple. If that is the best you can do, for whatever reason be that religion or just bigotry that's not good enough. You need reeducating or to go and live as a hermit. If your religious belief means that you think that it is shame on the religion and all who hold that faith. It is the religious (that believe that) that are the abomination deserved of scorn, ridicule and ultimately contempt. No one in 21st century Britain should have on record that their leader, employer or line manager thinks their sexual orientation is a sin but they are so liberal that they 'tolerate' you. Good riddance Farron, climb back under your rock.

I hate to do it, but I think I agree with Jambalaya.

There is no contradiction about wanting to live your life a certain way and to believe certain things, and wanting to allow others to live the way they want and to believe what they want. That is what liberals do. I'm an atheist, but would fight against anything that seeks to limit anyone's right to follow their religion.

Farron was done over by the media… but that's what happens when you lead a party, and he didn't handle it as well as he needed to. And the party struggled to gain any additional relevance in the snap election. He had to stand aside. I hope he continues as an MP though, as he's far better at that than most.

I think it's better to let the prevailing social views mould and shape religious people, rather than insist it's all or nothing

There is no contradiction about wanting to live your life a certain way and to believe certain things, and wanting to allow others to live the way they want and to believe what they want.

The consequences of the focus on my faith is that I have found myself torn between living as a faithful Christian and serving as a political leader.

A better, wiser person than me may have been able to deal with this more successfully, to have remained faithful to Christ while leading a political party in the current environment.

To be a political leader – especially of a progressive, liberal party in 2017 – and to live as a committed Christian, to hold faithfully to the Bible’s teaching, has felt impossible for me.

Kelvin the point is he used his religious beliefs to justify discrimination against gay people. thats not acceptable

RichPenny - Member

Just not really a fan of Northwind's view that people can't pick and choose. I think it's better to let the prevailing social views mould and shape religious people, rather than insist it's all or nothing. Too afraid that they'll choose all

It's an interesting point. But I suppose the counter is that the bits of faith that people discard, can be the lever that break them away entirely from that religion.

religious beliefs to justify discrimination against gay people. thats not acceptable

You must REALLY hate Islam then.

Funny that you only choose to rail against Christianity, though.

CaptainFlashheart - Member

Funny that you only choose to rail against Christianity, though.

Tim Farron is muslamic?

CFH - give me an example of a UK mainstream muslim politician using his or her religion to justify discrimination?

I have never heard of one and if I did I would condemn it completely

No, he's not even Cumbrian

Blimey. Right-wingers are an antsy bunch of snowflakes lately. Have you all been having a bad week?

No its been great nothing has changed remember

flashy you always say this WHY?

Its facile.

Start a thread on an Islamic country/person that persecutes homosexuals and i will be there criticising them as will the rest and all just for you ...will it stop you making this point - whatever it is as i cannot see what it is - substance less just like god?

Mefty - you really do know little. I have worked for religious organisations and I have given money to them. I had a bunch of nuns for my co workers. I still have a plant one of them gave me that I treasure ( vow of poverty from them - its all she had to give me - a cutting from her plant and I treasure it for that reason)

Its when religious people use their religion as an excuse for intolerance discrimination and hatred I get annoyed.

the post you quote is clearly over the top and one I have apologised for