Forum menu
[quote=tjagain ]Would swimming the loch be sensible?
It's less than 50m at the narrowest point, only a minute or so to swim across and I doubt the water's all that cold at that point.
I was in Bala last weekend, can't imagine it's significantly colder. I was in a wetsuit but was still in/out for 2-3 hours. Definitely swimmable without a wetsuit.
Depends on the person though, it takes repeated time/exposure to get over cold water shock, and that's what'll kill you long before you tire of exhaustion.
Some of us on this thread may have some history of loosing canoes and swimming for it. 😳 🙄
[img] 
?efg=eyJpIjoibCJ9&oh=fe37e3b7990984980edae0f49f04505c&oe=5A6ED70E[/img]
canoes? Not even just the one? 😆 how cold was that?
Loch Ard in July. Compared to the rest of Scotland, a tepid puddle.
35 years I have been able to tie a bowline....but not that day it seems....
I remember one scorcher of a day early June many years ago, blistering sun and about 30 miles into a ride around the mountains I came across a nice looking swimming pool in a burn. Quick jump in here to cool down I thought. Holy shite it was ice cold and I thought I was going to die of shock! Never again, alway make sure to test before jumping in.As I say lochs can vary, they heat up quicker at the surface, but they can also be colder during the spring and early summer, with snow melt going directly into them.
I did the same in June this year in a plunge pool in fisherfeild. It was colder than ice!
aye 11C water really has no relation to 11C air temperature, the water feels many times more colder. cause you are in direct contact with more volume of it, it draws the heat out of you much much faster.
And when you are talking good days heating up water, you are only talking the top metre or so as well, it's colder the deeper it gets too. you can feel that if you just in, the top foot of water can feel quite comfortable if you are floating in it, let your feet drop an tread water and you can feel the temp difference running up your body.
Please don’t walk along the railway anywhere.
Please don’t walk along the railway anywhere.
+1
They aren't as loud as you think when they're approaching. When it goes wrong someone has to collect as many of the bits as they can. I promise you, that's not a nice job.
Not really any intention of! But if you are standed and blocked in, not much else to do? what's the actual chances of a train driver stopping, or even seeing you if you tried to wave them down?
Guess another option could be to build a massive fire and hope someone noticed, probably get ignored mind you.
Or just go for the trudge through the undergrowth, bracken, water logged bogs and burns and rivers in spate? those could cause their own hassles too..
BBC story seems a fair representation of the facts though I'm sure other news outlets might sensationalise. I expect motive for seeking local guidance was to gain permission to use the railway line. As for using the railway it seems the least risky option vs swim or walk given the likely volume and speed of railway traffic on that section, however I've no idea about clearance to step aside on the track or over the bridge, nor the length of such narrow sections but suffice to say anyone with decent sense would consider this.
[quote=seosamh77 ]But if you are standed and blocked in, not much else to do?
I'd still go for the swim personally, especially if it really is only 20-30m, so less than a minute - I've certainly swum in colder water than that is likely to be.
you could just wait til night time and walk the track mind you when the trains stop. still a chance of running into some works trains and the like mind you. actually guess that's proabably more dangerous, hmm.
I'd be tempted with the swim. stuff doing in it december mind! plus it'd be unknown if you could get to the short swim.
It's a conundrum for sure! Build a raft, hollow out a tree? 😆
Guess you've got to try the undergrowth walk firstly, see where you get to. can always turn back. (after the train drivers have ignored you)
Curiously, this is an almost carbon copy of another incident at the same bothy a few years back.
If any of the naysayers on here had a clue about walking in Scotland or any mountainous area and took a look at the loch on Google Earth they would know that the south side of the loch is not walking terrain; it's lumpy, wooded and wet with many burns running down to the water. Carrying kit in plastic bags and shepherding children for three miles of that would be an absolute sweaty nightmare and probably a midge and cleg-fest, not to mention the ticks. Swimming is dangerous especially for an untrained swimmer and all the posters on here who suggest swimming seem to have forgotten the small matter of shoes and clothing for when you reach the other shore. I can see the headlines: "Father dies in valiant swim attempt in front of his children....".
The father did the right thing and rang for advice and the kids had an absolute ball; I sincerely hope they get the canoe back and can continue with their family adventures.
to get to the narrow bit you have already had to either cross a river in spate or walk across the railway. 30m doesn't seem far but the winds have been strong most of this weekend so with it funnelling along the loch and quite a lot of river water pouring into the loch in the opposite direction I'm not sure that's as trivial a swim as you all think. Certainly with no wetsuit you are arriving on the opposite side very cold and either trying to change into clothes you towed (making the swim harder) or walking very wet back to your car. Having done all that you only have one adult who has arrived at the car and who still has to get some sort of external help.I'd still go for the swim personally, especially if it really is only 20-30m, so less than a minute - I've certainly swum in colder water than that is likely to be.
I'll add my voice as someone who's been there: Only 3 miles yes but 3 miles of tussocks, bog and swollen rivers. Obviously you ask yourself if you can get yourself out of such situations but then you need to ask whether you'll make things worse by trying. I'd say that was a real possibility here. Right decision rather than some macho BS that potentially makes things worse.
aracer - Member
I'd still go for the swim personally, especially if it really is only 20-30m, so less than a minute - I've certainly swum in colder water than that is likely to be.
Then what are you going to do? Get the kids 6, 8, 10 and 12 year old kids to swim after you?
I believe 'familia levosa' is the correct spell. Unless they were muggles in which case the train was probably the best option.
3 miles of tussocks
3 miles of Tunnocks? I agree that that might be a struggle, but I'd give it a bloody good go.
[quote=globalti ]all the posters on here who suggest swimming seem to have forgotten the small matter of shoes and clothing for when you reach the other shore.
[quote=legend ]Then what are you going to do? Get the kids 6, 8, 10 and 12 year old kids to swim after you?
I'd read the rest of the thread (or even just the rest of this page), where I wrote:
[quote=aracer ]I'd have chosen to swim the lake at the shortest point as suggested above (dry clothes towed behind in a dry bag) before walking back to the car and going to find somebody to lend me a boat.
unlike most here I do have experience of swimming as part of a trek - it doesn't actually make swimming much harder towing a floating bag - and I was just suggesting what I would do as a very strong swimmer used to swimming in cold water.
I also prefaced that with:
I suspect if there had been no way of contacting anybody then
I'm sure they did the right thing in the circumstances. But, hypothetically, if there was no phone signal or no train line, I'd go for one adult swimming the narrows to get to the car and go for help. Since they paddled the canoe there, they would have paddling kit and buoyancy aids and swimming 50m like that is standard practice.
I'd read the rest of the thread (or even just the rest of this page), where I wrote:
Dont be silly, thats not how it works around here
aracer » I'd have chosen to swim the lake at the shortest point as suggested above (dry clothes towed behind in a dry bag) before walking back to the car and going to find somebody to lend me a boat.
How long are you away for? Seems like a bit of a crap idea when you could be away for hours (potentially coming back empty handed) and there are perfectly good trains coming past. Have the other 5 family members still got plenty of food and fuel?
Hours? They're in a bothy, they might get a bit hungry if there's no food left, but they're not about to freeze to death or starve.
I note this is still the hypothetical "if there was no way of contacting anybody" we're discussing, and that's probably the quickest way of getting help. I'd not be sure of the chances of flagging down a passing train. It's only an hour round trip to Fort Bill, I'm sure I'd find somebody to lend or hire me a boat.
got plenty of food and fuel?
You'd kill a deer and chop down a tree firstly of course! 😆
All very joined up and what else was he meant to do? I was more bothered by the prospects of anybody else fitting in the Bothy, six is kind of pushing the code a wee bit.
The other side of the 30m neck is the A830 to Mallaig so plenty of opportunity to flag down a car cos when the weather's cack up there what else can you do but drive around between cafes and viewpoints picking up semi-nekkid blokes.
I was more bothered by the prospects of anybody else fitting in the Bothy, six is kind of pushing the code a wee bit.
Yaaaaaaaaaawn. Sorry kids, can't go for a fun little trip cos despite helping instil the spirit of adventure in you, we might upset some bloke on the internet.
Here's the crossing https://goo.gl/maps/zbxHW3Fc9p92 - I reckon a cheap rubber dinghy would work fine for rescuing the family.
dunno why I didn't look at that, you'd get round to it no bother too, aye I'd swim that easy enough. just crossing a river in it.
You'd struggle getting much further by that, gets fairly over grown by the looks of it.
could maybe flag someone from the road there too, so mibbe not even need to swim it.
Was still the right thing to call someone with kids in tow though. (We're obviously just discussing, hypothetical, no phone or signal here.)
Yaaaaaaaaaawn. Sorry kids, can't go for a fun little trip cos despite helping instil the spirit of adventure in you, we might upset some bloke on the internet.Posted 8 minutes ago # Report-Post
Show me where I wrote or inferred that?
I've walked in that area throughout my childhood and did the walk along loch Horn to Inverie with my wife and camping kit a few years ago.
A much harder friend told me how he got hypothermia and nearly died crossing burns on the loch Horn walk. Walking out we thought we must be on a different route the walk was challenging and significantly harder than it looked on the map with lots of short steep climbs and descents on broken ground , but it didn't feel undoable. We didn't see any challenging burns just a few shallow run offs. After a week camping the return leg was horrendous two days of rain and the melted mid week snow had totally changed the landscape and shallow run offs were deep burns in spate . The hypothermia story was suddenly much more credible.
Technically, yes, but if you count the wee ones as half (they'd fit in one bunk) you're down to 5! Not as bad as the party of 16 my mate and I met at Sourlies.six is kind of pushing the code a wee bit
It's not the bloke on the internet, it's the other travellers looking for shelter.we might upset some bloke on the internet
But good on them for taking the kids on an adventure.
Technically, yes, but if you count the wee ones as half (they'd fit in one bunk) you're down to 5! Not as bad as the party of 16 my mate and I met at Sourlies.
We met a Uni rucksack club in Corrour one night who tired to tell us the bothy was full. Few packs shifted into the howling gale and there was plenty space.
've walked in that area throughout my childhood and did the walk along loch Horn to Inverie with my wife and camping kit a few years ago.
The hardest walk per yard I ever did was from Target to Sourlies along the shore of Loch Nevis. One of only two times I have been forced to bivvy as I ran out of daylight.
once thumbed a lift off a passing shunter and wagon on the China Clay line above Fowey when the wind got up and nearly swamped our tender dinghy in the Fowey river. Pulled up on the bank, he stopped, and dropped us and the dinghy at a pub. Happy days.
Whilst losing the canoe wasnt the best move it was a mistake most of us could make (I have had to go oh bleep and drag back a kayak in the nick of time before). Phoning in for advice was sensible especially when dealing with kids and whichever emergency services bod decided on the solution of getting the train to stop deserves a pat on the back and a bottle of something. Simple, safe and minimum hassle for everyone involved.
Whilst losing the canoe wasnt the best move it was a mistake most of us could make (I have had to go oh bleep and drag back a kayak in the nick of time before). Phoning in for advice was sensible especially when dealing with kids and [b]whichever emergency services bod decided on the solution of getting the train to stop deserves a pat on the back and a bottle of something.[/b] Simple, safe and minimum hassle for everyone involved.
Exactly, intelligent joined-up thinking, compared to the sort of muppets who go walking with zero preparation and get into a shitload of trouble, then need dozens of people to put themselves at risk dragging their sorry asses out of the hole they’ve dug themselves into.
Surely a responsible family could have recreated the adventure with a VR headset and avoided the whole situation?
Mean while in the real world
One winter I was in a group that messed up (camped at Lock Avon and the tents got completely burried). We decided to walk out of the Cairngorms to the West when we had planned to walk out to the East. We walked out with a skier and phoned the mountain rescue from Derry Lodge to report that a group he was meant to be meeting hadn't turned up.
We fully expected to walk out under our own steam. We were well clothed but a bit short of food. However we were told by the mountain rescue to wait in a bothy and they came and got us in a snow cat
All quite embarasing. It was tempting just to walk out. But i could see there point of view. It wasn't about our egos andit was about the team keeping it simple for them. They were coming up to Derry Lodge anyway so why have us wandering potentialy creating more problems
I think this story is similar. A problem is prevented form happening by simple action
I've done a bit of bog tussock leaping in my time and some of the bog holes looked like they could swallow me and the bike, and yet in a dry summer the same bog can be crossed no problem.
Full marks to that father and everyone involved in a sensible solution.
No way would I want to take kids over unknown bogs without being sure of safe ground. 3 miles can easily take a couple of hours solo even for a recce.
Good news! The canoe is back, having been spotted, recovered by police, and returned to Stirling by kindness of strangers...
Mint!
[quote=thisisnotaspoon ]
But what if.......therewasnophonesignal?
Depending on what's around and if I'd got dry clothes in the car, I'd probably swim for it where the loch narrows just to the east (<20meters) and get back to the car, wait a few days then claim on the life insurance when the canoe turns up.
FWIW, I visited the area shortly after this incident and I reckon you could have waded across at that point 🙂
There's actually a wee island that cuts the distance in two but it's hidden by the trees on Google Earth. It's more obvious on Bing Maps
Don't forget though Col, there were kids involved as well. Maybe not a good idea to let/make/advise/coerse kids to go plodging over there.
The canoe was discovered on a beach, upright, water levels having dropped over a metre since the day it was lost.
Bear in mind a couple of Jon's kids are only a metre in height...
He could have walked across with them on his shoulders.
Or tied them together with their PFDs, thrown a rope over and pulled them across 🙂
FWIW it was a lovely, calm day when I was there. I'm not suggesting someone should really attempt it on poor weather.
FWIW it was a lovely, calm day when I was there.
Hope you logged it for the records then.