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Poops - buyer's remorse?
Some so called red wall tories are likely experiencing that now.
As for johnson's missus - she walked into this with her eyes (and ****) wide open; likely she's the one with buyer's remorse but will rinse johnson of everything he has.
Delightful!
Johnson has been lagging Starmer for a while so you can see why they’re worried
“They” won’t be worried, but Johnson will. Look at that graph. Two leaders that the voters feel very negatively about. If the Conservatives can change their leader, and choose the right one, Johnson’s successor will be in control of the timing of the next election, and Labour will be snookered, stuck with an unpopular uninspiring leader and unable to make a move without knowing when the election will happen.
Do we have the names of the 12 yet?
Unless they chose to name themselves it wont get released.
That said Sunak seems to be on manoeuvres
buyer’s remorse?
Some so called red wall tories are likely experiencing that now.
I reckon the letters more likeeto have come from the swivel eyed old guard who think Paterson was robbed and are now worried about their directorships & 2nd jobs
Yes, we know it’s code but if it was used, for example, at PMQs would the speaker challenge it’s use and demand a retraction?
I remember reading something that media legal departments advise against it now since its so well known chances are a libel/slander judge would just treat it the same as calling someone pissed or drunk.
If correct, what a disappointment but I live in hope...
Johnson’s successor will be in control of the timing of the next election, and Labour will be snookered,
All leaders fall into - ve opinion pretty quickly
How long depends on circumstances, but Starmer polls higher than corbyn or milliband ever did
Any replacement for Johnson would have to be carefully considered from that point of view
Honeymoon period can wear off quickly
Honeymoon period can wear off very quickly, which is why I pointed out the key thing that the Conservatives have on their side… their leader gets to choose when the next general election happens. And it they have a new leader, then voters won’t hold it against them if they call a snap election. It’s all about timing, and Labour have no control over that.
I remember reading something that media legal departments advise against it now since its so well known chances are a libel/slander judge would just treat it the same as calling someone pissed or drunk.
the person claiming libel would have to be able to show that they were not drunk! Very difficult for Johnson as its well known he is a drunk
Would calling bojo 'tired and emotional' not be exempt from libel due to parliamentary privilege?
Either way it would be amusing to see it
Would calling bojo ‘tired and emotional’ not be exempt from libel due to parliamentary privilege?
Either way it would be amusing to see it
Blatant abuse of Parliamentary privilege, and I'd love to see it 🤣
the person claiming libel would have to be able to show that they were not drunk!
It would be on the accuser to prove they were but thats getting slightly off topic. I was commenting on it being a code when it seems to being treated as an alternative phrase now.
So with regards to the speaker I suspect it would get banned. After all he is a liar as well but no one is allowed to call him one in parliament.
After all he is a liar as well but no one is allowed to call him one in parliament.
Can you say he is often incorrect?
I think all these things fall under "Unparliamentary language" rather than privilege. I think it's generally accepted for instance that "Liar" falls under unparliamentary, but when Ian Blackford called Johnson that in a speech he got away with because he said he'd informed Johnson he was going to say it, and qualified it's use, the speaker allowed it.
I think calling someone "drunk" is also unparliamentary
I think Starmer should call Johnson a liar & take the ban.
"Why am I banned for calling the PM a liar, when he lies to the country and nothing happens?" Make it a big thing.
There are ways around this. Make it a question rather than a statement ie " were you rather tired and emotional that day?"
Or the skinner approach one day he stated " half the party opposite are crooks" when rebuked by the speaker he retracted it and then stated " half the party opposite are not crooks"
Starmer needs to keep his powder dry for the election campaign - yes bring it to the public attention but do not make it a big issue yet - so that its available for the campaign
I think now that Blackford has tested it, I think qualified use against Johnson would have to be allowed TBH. But, it wouldn't be the weapon I think lots of people think it would be.
Everyone knows Johnson tells lies.
Make it a question rather than a statement ie ” were you rather tired and emotional that day?”
Not that easy I'm afraid, the speaker would probs. ask you to retract as it's clear what the intent is even if you skip past the language barrier. Then without Johnson raising a finger, you have to apologise, and Johnson gets to act all huffty at your expense.
Edit : apologies I'm not following the thread!
Nickc - that would be perfectly acceptable and is a tactic often used
I think it's a still just a joke phrase TBH, I know that George Brown, the famously drunk Labour Foreign Sec was accused of it often, but if you called someone tired and emotional in parliament today it has clear meaning, you'd still be reprimanded. I think you can get away with "Overwrought" or "Not quite yourself" still though.
If it could be considered defamatory, (which because it's so common, it probably could be ) you probably couldn't get away with it in parliament
Ideally if going to accuse Johnson of being a liar, it would be all the sweeter if they used Churchillian means
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminological_inexactitude
Blackford didn't call him a liar, he called him a racist. And was allowed, as nickc noted (helps also that it's true)
Starmer polls higher than corbyn or milliband ever did
Citation needed
You can call Johnson a liar because its been proven he is. Its that simple. when he lied to the queen over prorogation of parliament and was caught out then he has no answer to being called a liar. You cannot libel someone with the truth
apologies nickc, I didn't realise he'd done that as well!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-48689834
Starmer polls higher than corbyn or milliband ever did
Citation needed
Less low according to the graph 😉
https://twitter.com/DylanSpielman/status/1457690515604914182?t=Sb1TQB9txzRBlmNNdzydYw&s=19
Starmers personal approval ratings above millibands or corbyn too, I'll find that one too
Edit I see nick has done it
This is why the Tories will be worried if they can't replace Johnson with someone who lacks Johnsons charisma (I also think its why they went ditch him)
Corbyn was at zero at best so Starmer was more popular until March
You can call Johnson a liar because its been proven he is. Its that simple.
Probably (as Blackford has shown) Whether it would make the slightest dent in Johnson or the Tories as a whole is another matter altogether.
apologies nickc, I didn’t realise he’d done that as well!
None needed, Blackford quietly picks away at Johnson in a way that Starmer doesn't or won't. He's often very effective, but gets ignored because: Scotland
Bklackford is a grandstanding idiot. I have no time for him.
Starmer polls higher than corbyn or milliband ever did
Those two well known general election winners and transformative Prime Ministers.
As the Johnson magic fades, there is no evidence that Starmer has what he takes to capitalise on it. When/if the Conservatives swap leader, and get a bit of a bounce ready for another election, I fear Starmer’s popularity will just stay on the floor. For me, he said all the right things at the CBI yesterday… but so what? His forgettable charisma free delivery means that next to no voters will even notice, never mind care, what he said.
People in England only generally get to see Blackford at PMQs, which is by definition "a grandstanding event" I can forgive him for taking the opportunity offered to him to have a wider platform. Starmer can be quite dull, it's often Blackford IMO who hits the spot harder.
Those two well known election winners and transformative Prime Ministers.
Never said it was good enough to win, but the point is any leader can fall into negative opinion pretty quickly (the time between calling an election and voting day is over a month? ) , Starmers anonymity possibly helping there!
Johnson has until now been the exception to the rule
Starmer can be quite dull
After the last 5 years I'd take 'Dull but competent' in a heartbeat and I suspect a fair chunk of the population would too.
Surely the PM's speech was classic "look over there, squirrel!" tactics. This week no-one is talking about Owen Patterson of Geoffrey Cox, they are not talking about Brexit woes and not really even talking about Social Care bill which passed on the same day.
Simple distraction tactics, nothing more, nothing less. Yet the media and voters seem to fall for it.
I'm not great with graphs tbh but there was lots of talk not long ago about how Starmer was polling worse than Corbyn at same stage of their leadership. The second Dylan Spielman graph is absolute gibberish to me. I'm afraid.
And are Labour currently predicted to make the 40% vote share Corbyn achieved in 2017?
Simple distraction tactics, nothing more, nothing less. Yet the media and voters seem to fall for it.
Your ascribing agency to incompetence
People are talking about leadership challenge, losing more authority is the last think he needs
even Ant & Dec ripped him after that speech
Those two well known general election winners and transformative Prime Ministers.
Plus both of those were under sustained and rabid attacks by the right wing press. With Starmer the right wing press doesnt seem to think he is worth it but will probably spin up going into the election
Simple distraction tactics
Up to a point. But when your chosen distraction tactic has the effect of everyone pointing out that you seem incompetent, it does have it's own drawbacks.
People are talking about leadership challenge, losing more authority is the last think he needs
Last thing he personally needs maybe but what about the Tory party/their backers/Rishi Sunak who is quite obviously being lined up...
Wouldn't surprise me at all if Johnson CBA any more and is happy to take one for the team and help manage the succession.
It's a pretty blatant diversionary tactic and I'm surprised people are still falling for it, but I guess I shouldn't be.
Surely the PM’s speech was classic “look over there, squirrel!” tactics.
Nah there are better ways to distract than provide another line of attack against you.
It was him being his normal lazy self and probably having spent the weekend emulating Churchill from the drinking side of things.
And are Labour currently predicted to make the 40% vote share Corbyn achieved in 2017?
Isn't there a whole thread devoted to this already?
It was him being his normal lazy self and probably having spent the weekend emulating Churchill from the drinking side of things.
Why can't it be this and a diversionary tactic?
Isn’t there a whole thread devoted to this already?
Well someone made the claim about Starmer in this thread, maybe take it up with them? Or maybe just resign from your role as volunteer thread policeman.
Others may be using Johnsons incompetence as cover but there is no way he did this deliberately as a distraction - this is and has been his SIOP for decades. He is not pretending anything nor is he some great machivellian master. He is what he appears to be - an incompetent with a lackadaisical attitude
I brought up Starmer, sorry. My point was...
"Not Boris Johnson" ... isn't enough for a Labour leader, if the Conservatives decide that they too can run a "not Boris Johnson" candidate.
Any replacement for Johnson can chose when to have an election and (try) to capitalise on a "new leader" bounce, while Labour are left with an "old" and not terribly engaging leader. It's a big risk for Labour (and a lot of people in the UK). So I don't think the Conservatives will be hugely worried if Johnson continues to flail and fail, they'll just push him aside... he gets to retire as the one who "got Brexit done", lots of money for him to make off the back of that, and we have yet another "new" Conservative party steaming into an election back on the front foot.
the person claiming libel would have to be able to show that they were not drunk! Very difficult for Johnson as its well known he is a drunk
Other way around, I'm afraid. The person who publishes it has to prove it. Which they would be highly likely to fail to do. His shambolic appearance is just his normal state...
Saying someone looked 'tired' would be fine. It's only the 'tired and emotional' phrase which is shorthand for pissed. Which is why the press has been repeatedly saying how tired he looks and wondering if he's lost the plot.
I CBA to find it TJ but watch the Charlie Brooker thing on Johnson from Newswipe I think it was. Why do you think he deliberately ruffles his hair in that ridiculous way? It's obviously not just an act but he has clearly deliberately fostered and exaggerated his 'loveable' rogue/buffoon character and found it very useful.
Grum. Yes he hams it up but he is not concealing a master manipulator. He is covering up that he really is a dimwitted buffoon
I wouldn't say master manipulator, more the low cunning of the narcissist/sociopath.
Pepper the Pig... Boris's new book ?
He is covering up that he really is a dimwitted buffoon
How very clever of him!
Even if he is potentially a fairly clever person, if you spend much of your life getting away with doing a half-arsed job and getting away with it thanks to charm/bluff/luck/connections/a sympathetic right wing press, then you're going to find you're right out of luck if you suddenly actually have to start putting the work in properly. What was once an act eventually becomes the reality.
you’re going to find you’re right out of luck if you suddenly actually have to start putting the work in properly
In this job maybe but no doubt when the jig is up as PM he'll walk straight into a series of highly paid consultancy roles and lucrative book deals/public speaking appearances etc, just on the basis of who he is.
Consultancies? Not a chance.
Sincerest? Yes.
you’re going to find you’re right out of luck if you suddenly actually have to start putting the work in properly
Oh aye…
They’re reporting that Rishi and his minions are furiously briefing against Boris. He clearly thinks he now has a shot at the top job. Well if Tory politics has taught us anything it’s that if he’s the one scheming, then he won’t get it. PM Truss it is then
Or Hunt?
Gove a possibility?
Hopefully Gove or Truss, and not Sunak or Hunt.
Sunak/Hunt would, I suspect be competent and stand a chance of winning a GE, and I for one am done with Conservative rule for at least a decade or 3.
Truss has even less personality than Starmer. Gove always gives the impression of being some sort of Machiavellian creep - his whole personality is just off-putting. Hunt is playing a clever game - a hitter who seems to be keeping out of the in-fighting, but who has occasionally popped up making some valid criticisms of the Government's response to Covid. Sunak comes across as a bit too polished and aloof, and Chancellors don't always make the best Prime Ministers.
If Liz Truss becomes PM I'm going to live in a cave.
Raab? I'd rank him as worse than Hunt or Gove, probably on par with Truss.
Truss has even less personality than Starmer.
She is well liked by the tory members though if you look at conservative home surveys.
Sunak has been busy branding everything positive as him and everything else as someone else. I think Macron is his role model which might not go down to well with the tory party.
what I don't get is given that Johnson's past is littered with speeches that he's fluffed, why this one's still a story 48hrs later?
I saw the picture of Cameron above and for one terrible, horrible moment thought he'd been to Peppa Pig World, too.
@nickc Just another thing to beat him with? Seems like his normally loyal press have decided its time to make him sweat.
I also noticed in the Guardian there is a story about him refusing to comply with requests to wear a mask in the theatre - if the right-wing press pick this up too it will be a very bad week for him. Another case of one rule for us, another for Boris..
what I don’t get is given that Johnson’s past is littered with speeches that he’s fluffed, why this one’s still a story 48hrs later?
This is what makes me suspicious shenanigans are afoot. He's not performing any worse now than he ever has but for some reason the RW press are suddenly calling him out on it constantly.
what I don’t get is given that Johnson’s past is littered with speeches that he’s fluffed, why this one’s still a story 48hrs later?
The rest of the Tory party has decided it will still be a story? The straw that broke the camel's back, not sure.
what I don’t get is given that Johnson’s past is littered with speeches that he’s fluffed, why this one’s still a story 48hrs later?
Because the "old" Johnson would have filled that dead time with apparent (but probably pre-prepared and ready to use when needed) ad libs. It was one of his few real skills. Without that kind of easy apparent freewheeling... what has he got left that his party and supporters want and need? It's a sign that he's not currently performing well, even by his own previous standards.
but for some reason the RW press are suddenly calling him out on it constantly.
They want someone more right-wing and committed to austerity. They didn't have a problem with Cameron, even when he didn't manage to win a general election after 13 years of Labour rule.
what I don’t get is given that Johnson’s past is littered with speeches that he’s fluffed, why this one’s still a story 48hrs later?
Because after the Paterson shambles there's blood in the water, when you look strong a fluffed speech is a non-issue, when you look weak you can't afford to fluff anything.
Johnson's personnal appeal was a huge part of the Tories success in 2019, much as he seems to be floundering now, he's not going to be that easy to replace and 3 of the 4 leading contenders look unlikely to do well.
Hunt was a remainer, a cardinal sin for the very very Brexity membership.
Sunak looks competent and is currently the most popular with the wider country but will that hold up once people get hit with the NI rises in April? Also, when you've spent the last 5 years actively courting the racist-bellend vote don't be surprised if those same voters run straight back to the clutches of Nigel Farage when presented with Rishi.
Gove is like the anti-Johnson; clearly intelligent and competent but zero common touch or public appeal. Plus he's backstabbed half the party at one point or another so hardly well liked.
so.... Liz Truss, who's not disliked by the general pubic so much but I only suspect that's mainly because 90% of people haven't a clue who she is. Suspect she's the most likely to get in but that she'll crash and burn once the full glare of public scrutiny is on her.
Time will tell.
Hunt is not competent. Ask those who suffered when he was a minister.. neither is Gove. They only look vaguely competent alongside Truss and Raaaaaaaab
Who claimed that Hunt is competent?
The question was Johnson's likely replacement.
Competent or not depends what you're trying to achieve doesn't it.
Ernie
Several posters seem to think so
Really? I would be interested in knowing the basis for that claim. Obviously Cameron was well impressed with Hunt.
Although I suspect for some people an ability to use a comb is probably sufficient.
Rishi as PM, isn't another bout of Tax rises and austerity going be a little hard to bare for the electorate when the guy enforcing it has a net worth of over 200 mil?
Although I suspect for some people an ability to use a comb is probably sufficient.
Ernie, your continued admirable effort to try and divert criticism of Johnson, using every trick in the book, is fascinating.
Rishi as PM, isn’t another bout of Tax rises and austerity going be a little hard to bare for the electorate when the guy enforcing it has a net worth of over 200 mil?
He's raising NI disproportionally on the working poor early next year. He's just changed the health and care bill to make it so that those with very little assets don't get the same protection as the more well off if they need care. He's just slashed plans for infrastructure spending in the North of England. So it's already underway, with Sunak in charge of taxation and spending, yet the mud isn't sticking to him, which is interesting.
I agree Ernie
I find your deference to Johnson absolutely fascinating. The man is an incompetent lying philanderer. Why you defend him i find weird.
Tugging your forelock for a toff? i am surprised