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50% succesful appeals proves the system you are supposed to be running is completely broken, fix that instead.
It’s broken by design, but you know that.
There was a truck driver on the news last night who said ‘thank you Boris, and thank you to everyone who voted for brexit’. Until labour and remainers get their head around this they’re going to be pissing in the wind.
Just to be clear, he may have credited Boris. I don't. The workers who were here pre Brexit could have remained here so I think the short term credit goes to Covid, not Boris.
Also I'm not saying it's good for me - it isn't, and I didn't vote for Brexit in the Referendum or in any of the Gen Elections.
Just to be clear, he may have credited Boris. I don’t.
Me neither, but unfortunately lots of people will. Until labour and former remainers find a way to talk about this stuff without coming across as if they're celebrating the chaos and appearing to justify low wages then Boris will have all the cover he needs.
Saw that photo of the young conservatives and it reminded me of this....
Isn’t it Johnson who is “celebrating the chaos”, while others are asking him to start planning and acting to avoid it? You know, govern, rather than wait for some kind of imaginary natural process to sort things for us. Still, I’m sure he’s loving the attention and the feeling of power.
Still, I’m sure he’s loving the attention and the feeling of power.
Hasnt he got his book on Shakespeare to write or risk having to hand back the advance. You have to think about priorities.
There was a truck driver on the news last night who said ‘thank you Boris, and thank you to everyone who voted for brexit’. Until labour and remainers get their head around this they’re going to be pissing in the wind.
Karma has a way of swinging back and forth.
Karma has a way of swinging back and forth.
Yup, and at the moment karma has swung back towards the working class.
at the moment
Cos I'm sure that's what Brexit was all about.
⏳
I wish that were true, real wage growth was 0.03% over the last year, and the lowest paid are going to be hit with tax rises, benefit cuts, and ever higher bills over the next year. A vox pop does not always reflect what is happening more generally, and they are a useful method for getting us to accept a chosen narrative rather than scrutinise political claims.
There are good offers being made to class1 license holders with enough time under their belt right now. Spreading that out to the “working class” more generally is wishful thinking though. People are still earning less than the minimum wage (after van hire wheezes etc) for delivering to your door, for example. Any working class person who chose to ‘make a difference’ and are in the public sector is seeing below inflation wage increases, yet again, in another year where Johnson is ultimately the person who has chosen to inflict that on them and their families.
Spreading that out to the “working class” more generally is wishful thinking though.
We know there are shortages of all trades, Butchers, Farm workers, Slaughterhouse workers. And that's just the stuff that makes the news. I'm pretty sure there will be shortages in hospitality although that hasn't made the news.
But so what? I'm merely agree with Daz that typically blue collar workers are doing better at the moment largely at the expense of white collar workers and that's not entirely bad for them.
Saying "ah some blue collar workers aren't doing well" doesn't touch that point at all. (In fact I'd be delighted if you could destroy my point and demonstrate that I'm the winner here.)
...and yes, we have tax and inflation looming and that's gonna be dire, but I'm not sure a plumber with less completion that he faced in 2019 is going to care much. (Especially since they're likely to be self employed.) Again that burden will be bourne by white collar folk permie folk like you and I.
I’m self employed on well below average income… dad was a driver… mum a cleaner… my partner on two days a week due to CFS, make all the assumptions you want buddy… a few happy and mouthy drivers on TV news bulletins does not necessarily represent an economy working for the vast majority of workers. And Johnson himself is in charge of the biggest employer of people in the country… and is holding back wage growth as a matter of policy, while telling us that growing wages is a priority of his. Make the lie big enough and people listen to it and ignore your entirely contrary record of delivering what you claim to endorse. This government is still stacking the deck against lower paid workers, and, yes, successfully getting support from the public by claiming to do the opposite. Cunning and duplicitous, and, yes, will stay in power because of it, even while further establishing this as a great country to be stinking rich in, but worse for everyone else.
Some interesting assertions on how the lower paid are currently thriving due to Boris. I hope the government send them a letter to remind them of that.
I suspect within a year some of the opinions expressed on here are going to seem hopelessly outdated and optimistic.
House of cards built on a sand bank. Unfortunately many of the public many well be looking at the last few months as the "good times" rather incredibly, before the real storms hit.
But so what? I’m merely agree with Daz that typically blue collar workers are doing better at the moment largely at the expense of white collar workers and that’s not entirely bad for them.
So there IS a magic mney tree after all. Hooray!! When do I get mine?
Saying “ah some blue collar workers aren’t doing well” doesn’t touch that point at all. (In fact I’d be delighted if you could destroy my point and demonstrate that I’m the winner here.)
The vast majority of retail jobs (biggest employment sector in the UK) are being advertised at age appropriate minimum wage. So employers can, if they simply say "best candidate", employ the cheapest person possible. Hospitality wages are the same. Waiting staff, bar staff, kitchen staff jobs all at minimum wage.
If Boris truly wants a "high skilled, high wage" economy then these jobs need to be cast aside, unless he plans to have highly skilled shelf stackers on high wages
When it comes to retail, a higher minimum wage is the answer, not getting rid of the roles, or allowing market forces to keep wages low. If all retailers have to pay more, there is no competitive disadvantage of doing so in a price sensitive sector. And it’s entirely in Johnson’s power to make that happen. He can raise the wages of hundreds of thousands in a stroke. He can do that. That he chooses not to tells you all you need to know. Removing the age bands would be even better, getting young people earning more, and removing one of the incentives to keeping retail jobs temporary.
Why have assassinations become less of a feature of political life.
M&S have stopped selling suits and no one employs a scruffy assassin.
M&S have stopped selling suits and no one employs a scruffy assassin.
Deadshot didn't wear a suit in Suicide Squad and he got paid quite well
In work benefits suits sectors like retail and hospitality - many employers cap hours at 16 hours and rely on taxpayers to pay the rest. It also means that employers can employ twice as many part-timers than relying on full-time staff - a very effective way of massaging the employment figures. Some employers are reclassifying employees as ‘apprentices’ so they can pay them below the minimum wage as well as claim money for training.
If they really want to create a high skills / high wage economy then it will require massive investment in training, new IT, automation to address the UK’s chronically poor productivity. We also require products and services that appeal to an accessible, global market - given the level of investment required, no-ones going to do that just for the piddly, flat-lining UK market with an ageing demographic.
M&S have stopped selling suits and no one employs a scruffy assassin.
🤣
STW at its best.
In work benefits suits sectors like retail and hospitality – many employers cap hours at 16 hours and rely on taxpayers to pay the rest.
Yeah, took me years to cotton onto this. ...and it creates some perverse imperatives.
many employers cap hours at 16 hours
They claim this is for flexibility of the workforce. Having spent 20 years in retail I was always arguing against that view as I always found people wanting part time work had other commitments and couldn't work extra hours. I was proven right many times but the decision makers don't take any notice of the people on the shop floor in big companies (O2 being a notable exception)
You guys, not only is too many pigs the farmers fault but also there isn’t a fuel crisis (it’s actually a car crisis, there are more cars than fuel so they need to be culled, at home, in the garages, or even in the streets).
Also, there is no point in saving cancer victims as they are all going to die anyways.
Or at least I think that’s the logic being displayed, isn’t it?
Don’t forget that someone winding people up on here claimed that he had to vote for Brexit because 51.8% voted to leave in a non-binding referendum and you needed to respect democracy... or some pish.
I miss davidtaylforth, at least he was funny.
House of cards built on a sand bank.
Totally this.
And the developer only got the permission to build 'Cardhouse Gardens' there because he gave Jenrick (or whoever the new housing crook minister is) a brown envelope full of £50 notes.
Kuensberg giving Boris a hard time on the BBC News at the moment - "you're saying it's not my problem"
Waffle, wiffle, twiddle, twaddle, bluster I'm alright Jack
Kuensberg giving Boris a hard time on the BBC News at the moment
Surprising. Has her former "source in Downing street" persuaded her to do her job then?
So the headline from the labour conference was one of Starmer’s shadow cabinet members resigning because he was told to argue against a rise in the minimum wage. Headline from the Tory conference looks like it’ll be Boris raising the minimum wage and telling businesses to pay more. Anyone see the problem here?
was told to argue against a £15 rise in the minimum wage now
If Johnson goes for a £15 minimum wage this year, all political hell will unleash. It would be a political masterstroke that would put Labour into free fall. If it’s £10 it’ll be little more than a shrug. Welcome, but the bare minimum several years too late. The “Living Wage” was supposed to go above £9 earlier this year, but that was delayed/downgraded by Sunak because of the pandemic.
If Johnson goes for a £15 minimum wage this year, all political hell will unleash. It would be a political masterstroke that would put Labour into free fall.
£15pa for a full time job is higher than the median UK wage.
I don't think proposing a minimum wage higher than the average wage would be a masterstroke. It would blatant lunacy, even Boris isn't that mad. McDonald wasn't that crazy either, he's never mentioned it before, it was just a political stunt.
AFAICT The only reason £15 was chosen to put Starmer on the spot was that there's a campaign in the USA for $15 an hour. Guess what, £ are not $.
BUT Labour have (by bad luck) positioned themselves as the party of bringing in cheap Labour to keep Blue Collar wages low for the greater good of the economy while the Torys have (by luck IMHO) taken on the role of a militantly protectionist pre-1975 Union and created a situation where blue collar workers are in massive demand. So I think the Torys may raise minimum wages a bit just to underline the point to their new ex-Labour voters and (perhaps) raise a bit more tax revenue at the same time.
Weird times.
Can't help thinking Boris had been watching Squid Game.
It probably fits with what his idea of a "high wage, high skill" economy is?
Surprising. Has her former “source in Downing street” persuaded her to do her job then?
I made a similar comment when she gave him a tough time a couple of weeks ago.
I have no idea WTF Labour were doing talking about a £15 per hour minimum wage, totally unrealistic at this point. Yet again letting the Tories off the hook by squabbling amongst themselves.
Boris's speech today will be interesting. Yes, we want to sort out the low wage end of the economy,but expecting business to fix years of Tory government policy is a bit rich.
Meanwhile Raab announces plans to amend the Human Rights Act
I'm more than happy that anyone who supports the reduction of 'Human Rights' has theirs downgraded while mine stay at the current level. Same for Capital Punishment.
but expecting business to fix years of Tory government policy is a bit rich.
getting over-excited about the possibility of a Tory fixing over a decade of Tory policy is also "a bit rich"
So the headline from the labour conference was one of Starmer’s shadow cabinet members resigning because he was told to argue against a rise in the minimum wage. Headline from the Tory conference looks like it’ll be Boris raising the minimum wage and telling businesses to pay more. Anyone see the problem here?
A) Nobody noticed the last Corbynite on the labour front bench having a hissy fit.
B) I'll believe the Tory's raising the minimum wage, in any realistic, meaningful way when I see it
As with most politics, don't listen to what they say, look at what they do. They may on the surface to be 'telling businesses to pay more' but they're doing nothing more than make some vague noises about it. Mainly just to cover their arses for Brexit-induced chaos by trying to pretend thats what this was about. Bullshit!
In reality its business as usual and there will certainly be no legislation or initiatives to empower workers. Quite the reverse, if anything. Its all just blah, blah, blah
The main takeaway from today will be flag-waving, xenophobic, anti-immigrant bullshit with not a shred of substance behind it. Unfortunately that seems to go down a storm in Brexit Britain. As Boris - as its leading exponent - well knows. hey ho....
AFAICT The only reason £15 was chosen to put Starmer on the spot was that there’s a campaign in the USA for $15 an hour. Guess what, £ are not $.
More likely the fact Starmer had stood in front of a banner calling for £15/hr for McDonald's workers Shirley.
More likely the fact Starmer had stood in front of a banner calling for £15/hr for McDonald’s workers Shirley.
Good point, that seems likely. (Although *that* £15 number must have come from somewhere and the photo didn't get much publicity until after so who knows.)
Of course if inflation is as bad as it could be for a couple of years a £15 minimum wage will be practical. 😱
A) Nobody noticed the last Corbynite on the labour front bench having a hissy fit.
Agree. And any floating voter who did notice will regard that whole episode as a point in Labours favour. To the point where I seriously wonder if McDonald/Starmer planned it together to create a visible ending of the old guard. That's probably a conspiracy theory too far but McDonald seems a reasonable guy and whatever his views he must want a Labour govt next time so who knows.
As with most politics, don’t listen to what they say, look at what they do.
Funny how you never apply this rule to the Labour party. 🙄
Anyway, the problem isn't what they will or will not do, the problem is that Starmer, in his infinite wisdom and political genius, has somehow allowed Boris, widely reputed to be a blithering idiot circus act, to outmanoevre him yet again so that it is now the tory party who are seen as the defenders of the working class and low paid. While Starmer was obsessing about issues that no one gives a shit about (I can't even remember now what they talked about last week), Boris has spent the week talking about low pay.
I watched the Blair/Brown documentary thing on iplayer yesterday and it's becoming ever more apparent that Boris is the Blair of his party. I'm not sure whether that makes Starmer William Hague or IDS but the parallels are obvious, and the end results probably the same.
so that it is now the tory party who are seen as the defenders of the working class and low paid
I hold no flame for Starmer but to put this issue in his lap is daft. The Tory's now hold all these stalwart ex-Labour seats. They have to pay attention to what the MPs are saying their new constituents want...Better wages and conditions, or they will lose the paper thin majorities they hold, and all these seat will go back to Labour again. This has less to to with Johnson out-maneuvering Labour, and more to do with immediate political expediency.
Starmer is IDS, and Labour shouldn’t try and fight an election with him as leader.
But Johnson is just making shit up on the hoof. He has no plan. He has no course. He has no policies. He is treating being PM just like being a column writer, and it works for him. Blame everyone else, and lie out of your arse if it helps. If you say things people want to hear, people will buy into your lies.
Well, the line is now officially 'get used to it, this is what you voted for'. The resulting rocketing inflation will redistribute some wealth, but my prediction is that if retailers raise prices across the board, our over-consuming customer base will cut back, so there won't need to be so many drivers etc. Or the companies will close their UK operations.
You cannot dick around making basic consumer goods prohibitively expensive and pretend that won’t have an effect on demand.
Hell, it might even be a good time to consider going teetotal. So the pub might not need that extra bartender or the supermarket might be able to consolidate 5 deliveries into 4. This nonsense will not work. 🤷♂️
I hold no flame for Starmer but to put this issue in his lap is daft.
It doesn't take a political genius to work out that the issue of the day is the cost of living and wages. We know Starmer is focused on the red wall because everything he says is a result of focus groups he runs in them, and yet he has somehow missed the opportunity to come out of the labour conference with a cast-iron commitment to do something about it and put Boris on the back foot.
The labour left seemed to realise the importance of this, hence their focus on raising the minimum wage last week, but Starmer was completely oblivious. Or more likely he just saw it as another opportunity to pick a fight with his members. The end result is the tories - the f***** tories! - now have the initiative on the single most important issue which the labour party needs to own. It's a shambles.
The noise around the £15 figure was just designed to damage Starmer (as if he needs help). Johnson isn’t going to do anything that even matches current Labour policy, never mind goes beyond it, on minimum wage, or anything that increases household income for the poorer paid, or keeps their costs in check. He will make a lot of noise and splash the blame onto anyone but himself for the effects of his government’s choices, policies and poor governance. Johnson is making the lives of the working poor, and the unworking poor, worse, and telling everyone else to find ways of mitigating that… despite being in charge.
The £15 figure was just designed to damage Starmer (as if he needs help). Johnson isn’t going to do anything that even matches current Labour policy, never mind goes beyond it
I think you might be wrong on that. Labour stuck to their figure of £10, and if some reports are right Johnson is going to £10.50. Besides it's the job of the labour left to push the envelope on policy, and then usually a compromise is reached at something more realistic. Starmer completely missed the opportunity in favour once again of having a fight with his left wing.
The resulting rocketing inflation will redistribute some wealth, but my prediction is that if retailers raise prices across the board, our over-consuming customer base will cut back, so there won’t need to be so many drivers etc. Or the companies will close their UK operations.
You cannot dick around making basic consumer goods prohibitively expensive and pretend that won’t have an effect on demand.
You're in agreement with Johnson there, you're both saying the market with find the right level: We have to pay blue collar people a bit more so we buy a bit less so demand for staff reduces and we end up back in equalibrium with blue collar workers earning a bit more and white collar workers a bit worse off in real terms.
Labour stuck to their figure of £10
Minimum of £10 now, and constantly reviewed. Importantly “for all workers”. So many people now earn less than the current living wage, due to employment wheezes that the government allow to continue. McDonald was working on good stuff in this area, ‘till he decided to gift the Tories the line you’re now spinning for them.
Labour stuck to their figure of £10, and if some reports are right Johnson is going to £10.50.
If it does go to that £10.50 figure then the HGV driver shortage will just get worse, why put up with all the crap for an extra £1-2 an hour when you can get a job in a shop or warehouse for just a little less? From the whole time the Minimum Wage was brought in (which I agree with BTW) all that has happened is the jobs above that level have very little pay increase while the jobs below are pushed upwards. I've seen many examples of where supervisors/managers were on a decent chunk above the people they looked after but the Minimum Wage has caught up with them to the point they are on pennies more for a lot more responsibility.
I also seem to remember the Minimum Wage was meant to have got to £10/hr by the beginning of 2020 so he's also late.
The £15 figure was just designed to damage Starmer
True.
Labour stuck to their figure of £10, and if some reports are right Johnson is going to £10.50.
So what? The only opposition promises that matter are the ones in the lead up to an election. It sucks but there's not much Kier can do for a few months.
And governments lose elections far more than oppositions win them. The landscape isn't good for Kier now, it might be fantastic in 24 months time.
British Bacon Bonanza! Buy British Bluster! Bring Back Birching!
#politicskilledparody
I’ve seen many examples of where supervisors/managers were on a decent chunk above the people they looked after but the Minimum Wage has caught up with them to the point they are on pennies more for a lot more responsibility.
And in work benefits have an even more dramatic effect and are very visible to the people involved in payroll. I'm sure someone in HR posted here to make that point a few years back.
No easy answers.
If it does go to that £10.50 figure then the HGV driver shortage will just get worse, why put up with all the crap for an extra £1-2 an hour when you can get a job in a shop or warehouse for just a little less?
£2p/h = £4k per year and you get to be away from your boss!
Meanwhile Minister for Justice, Dominic ‘Big Brains’ Raab shows he’s got his finger on the pulse of the problems facing women in today’s society
https://twitter.com/jolyonmaugham/status/1445658658684112902?s=21
🤦♂️
Minimum of £10 now, and constantly reviewed.
So do you think the voters will take note of that, or do you think they’ll look at which headline figure is higher? The point here is not that the tories will do more on low pay than labour, we all know they won’t. The point is that the voters will think they will because labour have chosen to dither and obfuscate while the tories set the agenda.
If Johnson adopts a small part of Labour’s employment policy, then yes, the Tories will be seen as “setting the agenda”, perversely. After dithering and delaying over the rise, he will then accuse those who have been calling for it for years now as dithering and delaying. And there will be people who’ll repeat that lie for him across the media, on social media, and down the pub… and, well, on forums.
we end up back in equalibrium with blue collar workers earning a bit more and white collar workers a bit worse off in real terms
What about the blue and white collar workers whose jobs are now surplus to requirements when everyone tightens their belts?
He’s up soon…
A reminder that in April of this year, the living wage was due to be raised to £9.21 ± 6p, but Sunak delayed/downgraded it citing the pandemic as the reason.
What about the blue and white collar workers whose jobs are now surplus to requirements when everyone tightens their belts?
It was your post describing how the market works not mine.
I think if Starmer had backed a £15 minimum wage he'd have been seen as an unrealistic leader, those wages are too high for businesses to afford, its probably not much less than I earn at ~£40k pa.
However BoJo saying that this is now the start of a high wage economy, against a back-drop of Brexit, fuel shortages and energy prices spiralling is seen as credible(?).
Has the water supply been spiked with LSD?
Joke about Gove’s nightclubbing. Painful but well received.
He’s got a plug in for the Telegraph, while comparing the people of Doncaster to illiterates.
He’s in full on columnist mode now, deriding Islington school sports days where “no one wins”.
Now “North London dinner parties” where people discuss decriminalising drugs.
Laying into climate protestors to huge cheers, they’re loving the idea of them going to prison.
An attack on Islington lawyers. Conviction rates and delays in court blamed on them. Nothing to do with cuts or policing, oh no.
We’re on the “skills” bit of the speech. Described the problems not the actions it seems (he does know he’s not in opposition, yes?)
Build Back Beaver ?!?
Skills, skills, skills…
[ education, education, education ? ]
Speech is more… vaccination, vaccination, vaccination… as if only we have them, created them, made them and are using them.
Waxing lyrical about “Giant Windmills”, and how Labour wouldn’t build them.
Full on Have I Got News style attack on Labour now. Nothing of substance though, just “Captain Hindsight” stuff about us still being in lockdown if Starmer had his way.
Claiming now that his predecessors fixed a mess left behind by Labour, while also promising to fix the mess left behind by them (and whoever has been PM for the last few years).
Build Back Burger ?!?
Listening to his outpouring of verbiage is enough to make me puke.
No coherent policies, just an endless stream of soundbites.
No doubt his followers will lap this up - just like a dog eating it's own vomit.
It's often said that a country gets the leader it deserves - but this, really?
It’s Churchill time…
Now it’s football time…
Build back burger?
By this point I want to waterboard the ****!
How on earth have we ended up with this over-verbiated half-wit in charge (when he can be bothered)
Who needs a working government when we have spirit ?!?
Who needs to worry about their incomes falling, today, when they have spirit ?!?
Who needs a plan to unblock the ports, get the country moving again, and get it trading, when there is abundance of spirit ?!?
Who needs a coordinated approach to food and energy security when we can all get by on our spirit ?!?
Where were the policies?
He’s in full on columnist mode now
Yep, that could've been pulled straight from the pages of the Telegraph
Trump mk2
Raab doesn't even know what misogyny is, hatred of men is misandry.
Utter hot air - which is no surprise at all really.
So all that stuff that was trailed in advance… an increase in the minimum wage, big investment in public transport in the north… nothing… not a word.
Instead it’s the usual 3 word slogan
Build Back… *insert word beginning with B here*
What a useless **** that man really is
I’m amazed that there are people in this country still buying this tired, sad pantomime act
we end up back in equalibrium with blue collar workers earning a bit more and white collar workers a bit worse off in real terms.
What piece of fantasy class-war bollocks is this? So the folks that make the decisions about how much everyone gets paid are going to listen to Boris, not give themselves a pay rise so that those on the shop floor can have a bit more?
Guess the Pandora Papers story passed you by, where Boris and chums in the Tory party are chummy with oligarchs and kleptocrats, facilitating billions in tax avoidance and money-laundering schemes that deprive our exchequer of billions, whilst making the gullible feel that it was Doreen in accounts fault they haven’t had a decent pay rise.
BBC radio news running with the "no return to uncontrolled immigration" line... realistically, that was the only one he really needed to deliver for the public... everything else seemed to be for party consumption only. Get them motivated for the battles ahead, and to get them to give him the benefit of the doubt as he scrabbles around this winter (when not on holiday). He can motivate his campaigners... he's really good at this stuff. That is essential for a party leader... still no sign he's got the PM part of his job under control yet. Give him another 8 years (I'm sure the voters will).
we end up back in equalibrium with blue collar workers earning a bit more and white collar workers a bit worse off in real terms.
So the folks that make the decisions about how much everyone gets paid are going to listen to Boris, not give themselves a pay rise so that those on the shop floor can have a bit more?
No.
What a useless **** that man really is
Yeah the man who routinely runs rings around Starmer and everyone else in the labour party. You underestimate him, along with everyone else who focuses on the content rather than the style.
I thought Boris's speech will please his party but do floating floaters really look at leaders and think "Oh he's entertaining I'll vote for him.". I suspect they don't. Doubt many people even listen - I'm mildly interested and I only caught it by chance.
The tone of Keir's was much more to my liking, they're supposed to be the PM not an after dinner speaker. Also Keir's speech actually got something done. He very visibly slammed down the Socialist Campaign Group.
Kier's "showman" and "trivial" comments preempted and defused today's speech AFAIC.
So I'd say both of them will be pleased but Kier's the guy who actually made progress.
BBC summary points out only one policy mentioned in 45 minutes, but lots of crowd pleasing rabble points scored.
Lewis Goodall has been a good hire for the BBC. Thread on the speech (and wider politics)…
https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1445724353962778634?s=21
Yeah the man who routinely runs rings around Starmer and everyone else in the labour party. You underestimate him, along with everyone else who focuses on the content rather than the style.
Quick word association test....
What adjective would you use to describe people who are swayed by a politician's 'style' rather than 'content'.
No cheating now....what was the first adjective you came up with?