If you think the people aren’t equipped to make decisions which affect them then that’s an incredibly patronising and elitist attitude.
It all depends on the information that’s front and centre when making the decisions. When it comes down to “democracy”, it doesn’t just mean voting, it also comes down to the campaigns. When the guy running one of the campaigns tells us afterwards that the campaign contained deliberate lies, because they knew that people trying to counter those lies would result in reinforcing the message they are part of… we all shrug and say “well, there was a vote, democracy has been done, get over it”.
EDIT: ah, a second paragraph. Yes, what you say there.
dazh - look at the referendums in Switzerland. there they have a system of referenda that are automatically triggered if there is sufficient folk sign up for them. It has lead to some really nasty decisions which fortunately the federal government can ignore
I think if we had a similar system we would see capital punishment back, further impoverishment of the poor, etc etc
If you think the people aren’t equipped to make decisions which affect them then that’s an incredibly patronising and elitist attitude.
And what of the past 5 years tells you otherwise?
That seems to be incorrect
which bit?
Report handed over.
Let's see what happens.
https://news.sky.com/story/sue-gray-report-given-to-boris-johnson-as-long-awaited-inquiry-into-downing-street-lockdown-parties-concludes-12525650
Will Johnson throw his new EU ‘Freedom’ bill on the table first
AKA moving more areas of 'control/laws' into Secondary Legislation...
No 10 has now received the Sue Gray report, the Cabinet Office says.
Or at least, a version of it. Here is the statement from a Cabinet Office spokesperson said:
We can confirm that Sue Gray has provided an update on her investigations to the prime minister.
The description of the report as an “update” implies that Gray definitely does not see it as the finished version (she has had to leave out the most incriminating material at the request of the police), and perhaps that she does envisage publishing a final version once the police inquiry is over.
From the Grauniad live blog
I suspect that anyone expecting to be any the wiser by the end of the day will be disappointed.
Is there anyone who doesn't think this is going to be the mother of all stitch-ups?
Me
the paranoia is large on this
Johnson will try to bluster it out but it appears Grey is going to release an update today redacted then comes the police investigation and prosecutions then comes the full Grey report
its just going to rumble on and on and continue to cause damage which gets greater the longer it runs on
The answer is always more democracy, because the alternative is corruption, elitism and ultimately fascism.
Hmmm... not sure I agree here. Too many things to vote on could mean people get turned off. What we need is accountability and transparency, and ultimately that should translate to the ballot box; however it doesn't necessarily need more ballot boxes.
IANAL but an actual lawyer found it odd that anything had to be kept back as the offences would be subjected to fixed penalty fines and not be going to a jury trial so makes no difference if the names are out there. Just then up to the met to issue fines or not based on what the most bent of coppers, namely Dick, instructs.
The problem for Johnson is anything other than a complete exoneration implies a level of guilt.
The fact evidence has been handed to the police makes that highly unlikely .
What we need is accountability and transparency, and ultimately that should translate to the ballot box; however it doesn’t necessarily need more ballot boxes.
I said more democracy, not more referendums. Accountability and transparency are fundamental parts of democracy. If we have more of those, we have more democracy. Ultimately it boils down to the public having more involvement and agency in decision making. That doesn't necessarily mean more ballots, it could be via other mechanisms such as local forums, consultations, debates, town hall meetings, campaigns, surveys etc. The more people are involved, the more they will be informed and the better the decisions will be. Or we can just continue to abdicate responsibility and power to a tiny number of self interested and corrupted officials and representatives.
The longer it goes on the more people with have forgotten about it and/or lost their venom. Political memories are about 3 weeks, people are already 'moving on' from Serco and the billions paid out to fraudsters. The more we hear about not robbing a bank, everyone was doing it, Christian forgiveness, the more people will be ground down by it. That's why they do it because it works.
the offences would be subjected to fixed penalty fines
Assumes the offences being investigated are confined to covid regulation breaches.
IANAL but an actual lawyer found it odd that anything had to be kept back as the offences would be subjected to fixed penalty fines and not be going to a jury trial so makes no difference if the names are out there. Just then up to the met to issue fines or not based on what the most bent of coppers, namely Dick, instructs.
Depends if there were other offences uncovered - misconduct in a public office, perverting the course of justice.
Accountability and transparency are fundamental parts of democracy. If we have more of those, we have more democracy. Ultimately it boils down to the public having more involvement and agency in decision making.
People will be more involved if they have representation. Most people in England don’t have a representative at the local or UK level.
I always had a representative at the EU level I could write to (someone put there by my vote, who is reasonably aligned with my own politics, and with an interest in keeping my vote). I’ve never had a representative in the UK parliament. My vote has never helped elect an MP. Not once in my life. I have never had an MP who would address any question or suggestion I’ve put to them. I’m blocked by my current MP on all Social Media, and letters just get a dismissive non-response from his team. Makes it very clear that he is in parliament to represent those who voted for him. Which in term of accountability, is true.
So we’re expecting a bit of a non-report, the met investigation to be drawn out as long as possible and kept as opaque as possible with the aim that the only apparently non-corrupt investigation via Ms Grey is public so far into the future it can be dismissed as old news.
I suspect that Cummings won’t let that happen and will ensure this is blown wide open eventually and the cover up described above will be what actually does for Johnson and this group. So Cummings is basically giving them enough rope to hang themselves ?
The longer it goes on the more people with have forgotten about it and/or lost their venom. Political memories are about 3 weeks, people are already ‘moving on’ from Serco and the billions paid out to fraudsters.
This so much.
It's easier than ever these days with all the noise and contradictory information that stuff doesn't stick.
Difficult that - for the well being of everyone - as the RW commentators get the most impact day in day out. They get to decide the debate.
I can't see a way out unless there is a break from protecting the status-quo.
That doesn’t necessarily mean more ballots, it could be via other mechanisms such as local forums, consultations, debates, town hall meetings, campaigns, surveys etc.
I would call that 'better' democracy.
But as I've said before, a lot of people don't engage because they don't really understand any of it. They just see people arguing on the news and wonder what it has to do with them. That's why we need more and better education. If people realised what was supposed to happen they would get a bit more annoyed when it doesn't, and change would follow.
Ultimately it boils down to the public having more involvement and agency in decision making.
I was trying to think how our present system of governance could get any worse. You just answered my question 😀
the differnce between the other scandals and this is that this is easy for the average bod in the street to relate to. Its personal and will not be forgotton or forgiven. Also this from the Grauniad
I'm told Gray's use of the word 'update' to describe what she has handed to No10 rather than 'report' is very pregnant. Because of the omissions forced by the Met, she is adamant it is not the finished article, and by implication should not be seen by anyone as the final word.
In a few weeks time will be the police report and then the full gray report.
The public might not move on in that timespan, but the papers will. And his MPs will breath a sigh of relief and let him carry on. But will the public have moved on by the next election? Yes, and probably moved on from many other examples of “one rule for the many, no rules for the few” that will come to light, and probably be enshrined in law, over the coming years. It’ll all get normalised. Johnson has lost some support for good because of this “ We’re the only ones allowed to party” mess of arrogance and lies and coverups… but many more will move on, and return to him, once the pandemic is in the past.
Assumes the offences being investigated are confined to covid regulation breaches.
I recall a news outlet saying that the Met had confirmed it was just breaches of Covid regulations they were investigating, and that they were going to write to people asking them to pay/explain.
Which does not justify keeping the report secret.
What is said to justify that is the need to keep suspects in the dark about how much the police have on them, so they don't get together and create a common story that fits with all the evidence. This is reasonable enough in principle, but I am not sure it would work in this situation, with so many people involved. I don't think there is any law against revealing information you happen to know that might help this (is it obstruction?), but as the civil service and the police are supposed to be on the same side, they can't really not co-operate with a reasonable request to keep evidence up their sleeve for the time being. The "reasonable" bit being debatable here. Of course, had the Met launched their own investigation promptly, they would have been in possession of all the evidence, not Grey, so they would have been in control of the situation.
In a few weeks time will be the police report and then the full gray report.
That is what you (we) think should happen... the doesn't mean that it will happen.
"Hmmm… not sure I agree here. Too many things to vote on could mean people get turned off."
'What another one?' (Said in heavy Bristol accent)
So when does it get published on the .gov website then? Or will he spend days checking what he can get away with redacting.
The longer it goes on the more people with have forgotten about it and/or lost their venom. Political memories are about 3 weeks, people are already ‘moving on’ from Serco and the billions paid out to fraudsters.
I've said pretty much from the beginning (more out of fear than anything) that he'll get away with all of this somehow. I really hope I'm wrong!
I was trying to think how our present system of governance could get any worse. You just answered my question
Of course you do because you're a classic authoritarian establishment labour supporter. You think handing unaccountable power to preening egotists like Wes Streeting is a good idea. It's funny because despite your supposed hatred of the left, this 'trust in those who know better' view is straight out of the Marxist-Leninist playbook. It's very odd that a so-called 'party of the people' has so little trust in them. And they wonder why no one will vote for them!
You think handing unaccountable power to preening egotists like Wes Streeting is a good idea.
You're doing the "here's what I think happens in your head, not what you wrote" thing there Dazh. You can think that politicians should be held to account better without agreeing that the way do to that is with more direct votes on individual policies by the (engaged) public.
It’s funny because despite your supposed hatred of the left, this ‘trust in those who know better’ view is straight out of the Marxist-Leninist playbook
No it isn't. I've told you before that I think we should dissolve parliament and hand the logistics of running the country over to Tesco or Amazon. Thats not Marxist-Leninist, its Every Little Helpsist.
It will be released as a Wordle and you will have to guess the answer yourself.
Yep, all this collusion with corruption just engenders cynicism, demoralisation and dejection in the electorate. On the bright side up and down the country minor victories have been won by striking binmen and bus drivers obviously without any support from the parliamentary parties. I hear the Labour Coventry council are trying to recruit blackleg binmen to quell industrial action, I'm sure the Tories would approve.
Blackleg Binmen are doing a session for Mark Riley on6 Music this evening
hand the logistics of running the country over to Tesco or Amazon
Genuinely frightening!
🙈
Does anyone think that Johnson will address the Commons today at 15:30, explain how, not only should a party never have happened 'on his watch' at No 10, that he did indeed join it, before he throws himself to the mercy of the British Public to forgive this, and all his very many previous lies before resigning?
Of is he going to lie through his teeth, bluster and refuse to accept he's done anything wrong?
The latter.
I'm pretty ****ing demoralised by the whole thing.
The corroboration in recent days that he lied about intervening for those dogs seems to have been ignored too.
Probably going to say that we need to wait for the outcome of the Police investigation and the full report (that he may or may not release) before drawing any conclusions.
I'm wondering what time the report will be released, I suspect 15:25 at the earliest.
Whitewash;
a deliberate attempt to conceal unpleasant or incriminating facts about a person or organization in order to protect their reputation.
Greywash;
a deliberate attempt to conceal unpleasant or incriminating facts about a person or organization in order to protect their reputation.
Since its only going to be the unimportant stuff today he will be making a big thing about it and saying sorry for them before waffling on about vaccines, gdp etc.
The trick will be trying to conflate the minor cases with all the cases and so get people to start thinking it was all exaggerated and hopefully get bored with it before the more serious cases are brushed under the carpet by the met and hence in theory should be made available.
The only thing giving me a little hope is the whole Met intervention- why bother getting your tame police force to defang the investigation, if you didn't think it had fangs?
time to make a cup of tea and have a quick break from work
Completely devoid of detail on what we actually want to know, like what Boris was aware of and what he was present at. Agree with others that this serves only to help the whole thing fizzle out over time
