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Brexit is fundamentally incompatible with the Good Friday Agreement.
Which is just one of the reasons why it isn't "done".
Probably bin dun, but casstteboy up to his old tricks 🙂
I realise the futility of asking Remain fanatics to stop blaming everything on brexit, that is clearly my never going to happen.
I don't believe that anyone with half a brain is blaming everything -solely- on brexit. There's a whole bunch of other shit going on in the world. Complicated issues do not lend themselves well to simplistic answers.
But it would be either naive in the extreme or flat out lying to suggest that it wasn't a major contributory factor in our current woes even if indirectly. And even if that wasn't the case, you'd have to be in Cloud Cuckoo Land to suggest that brexit was actually helping us.
Because, is it helping us, Ernie? Is it? Are you sitting there right now thinking 'well, thank god for the one saving grace that is brexit, if it weren't for that we'd be far worse off right now'?
Six years on from all the promises of 2016 and the absolute best we've got today is leavers and their apologists shouting "nothing to see here, look, squirrel!" You ought to be ashamed.
Interesting that the two defenders of brexit both have arguments with absolute no nuance but just a binary all good or all bad.
Or any bearing on reality.
For a change.
In lighter news,
Tussaud's has moved their Boris.
The thing with Brexit is that it isn't just leaving in itself that has screwed us. It's also the combined factors of giving general acceptability and empowerment to the right wing nut jobs who were validated by the vote and the way the government was pretty much paralysed on every issue other than Brexit for the next five years.
If we'd voted to stay, idiots like JRM, Steven Baker and Pritti Patel would not have been allowed the influence they subsequently gained. The ERG would have stayed on the fringes, BoJo wouldn't have been anywhere near the cabinet, and Mad Nad would be on reality TV eating a whales penis or something.
Brexit hasn't just screwed us economically, it's screwed us socially and politically as well.
Stop blaming brexit for everything. Let it go. Move on. We need solutions – not shrugging our shoulders and blaming brexit for everything.
No. Stop blaming other people for your mistakes. The ignorance, xenophobia and short-sightedness of the vast majority of people who voted for Brexit need to suck it up.
Whether you like it or not Brexit is directly responsible for a large proportion of the woes of the UK today - whether that's the awful Conservative government, the increasing amounts of poverty, food shortages due to lack of workers, huge NHS waiting lists, Scottish independence...
I'd go on but since Brexiteers were unable to see this coming I doubt they're physically capable of understanding it now.
If we’d voted to stay, idiots like JRM, Steven Baker and Pritti Patel would not have been allowed the influence they subsequently gained. The ERG would have stayed on the fringes, BoJo wouldn’t have been anywhere near the cabinet, and Mad Nad would be on reality TV eating a whales penis or something.
<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;"> </span>
<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">Brexit hasn’t just screwed us economically, it’s screwed us socially and politically as well</span><span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">.</span>
100% this imo - Brexit was the snowball down the mountain to lead up to the avalanche where we are, & the coalition in 2010 and subsequent conservative push for power in 2015 was the snow flurry that caused it all.
So in my mind the conservatives over the last 12 years are 100% responsible (and subsequently all their voters) for the current 💩show of British politics.
How else do you think money gets into the economy? (As well as commercial bank lending.)
Well I work in an industry that is very effective at redirecting funds from other countries into the UK economy. That money is taxed. Of course there is the magic money tree as well, but I was trying to generalise on how a sane trading economy ought to run. The loss of GDP doesn't exactly help here.
Whilst I accept that Brexit is not the reason for all our ills, the economic recovery from pandemic is starting to look a little embarrassing. We'll be in the EEA within ten years. One imagines with freedom of movement as a condition. Ten years is currently about four to six prime ministers, but maybe there will be a little stability once this shower are voted out at the next GE.
But Suella Braverman for PM. Raab is well to keep his head down.
Stop blaming brexit for everything. Let it go. Move on.
This is pretty much Johnson's entire rebuttal when he was being pulled over the coals earlier this week. "I don't want to talk about that..." yeah, I wonder why.
Why should we just shrug and let them off the hook when they've spent the last few years crowing "we won you lost shut up and get over it." Yes, you did win. And here's what you won, it's yours now, so grow up and own it. We can't accept returns after you've snipped all the labels off.
You *ed up, deep down you know you've *ed up, everyone else was telling you it was going to be a **** up long before you ****ed it up, and now rather than admit it was a **** up you expect everyone to just go away and leave you alone.
No. Just, no. Forgiveness comes -after- contrition.
We need solutions
We do need solutions, but most people trotting out this narrative really don't like the blindingly obvious one.
stop blaming everything on brexit,
How about we just blame the stuff that is definitely blamable on Brexit on Brexit then?
I think most posters on here have enough nous to figure out that there are other world events going on that affect our lives. We're aware it isn't that simple.
Ironically for your rant/point, most of the Brexit voters are (kind of by definition of the content of the Leave campaign) the 'single issue' problem voters who aren't there with attempting to understand all the nuance and complexity, and were easily sold with stories on a level of 'furriners bad, engerland good' and 'funny boris did some comedy'. They're not aware it isn't that simple.
Stop blaming brexit for everything. Let it go. Move on. We need solutions – not shrugging our shoulders and blaming brexit for everything.
Brexit isn't the sole reason for everything being shit. But it's made all the shit things much much worse. The solution is undoing / reversing Brexit. Nothing that was promised in Brexit has been delivered or can be delivered.
Everything that @Cougar said a few posts back up there. ^^
We do need solutions, but most people trotting out this narrative really don’t like the blindingly obvious one.
It's exactly like the Obamacare problem in the States. Healthcare for everyone, great, as soon as you call it public healthcare? How dare you suggest this leftie socialist evil baby eater policy!
Or is it like gun control? Restrict access for criminals, yes, restrict access for kids, yes, but "gun control"? Why, you, you leftie socialist baby eater scum disgust me!
My former lab has missed out on a huge funding award thanks to brexit
thats on Johnson & Brexit too
havent listened to it this week
https://twitter.com/SimonOHagan/status/1545073565086654470
It looks like Cummings grudge doesnt end with Johnson gone
https://twitter.com/Dominic2306/status/1545345851937144833
I go back to my oft repeated phase; "Brexit isn't the destination, it's the vehicle".
And I keep repeating it because too many folk still don't understand the trajectory of the UK under the 'influence' of the current Tory/UKIP backers.
The "destination" of the UK is a country where, for example, folk who don't earn enough money will need to rely on food banks because welfare won't be enough, by design.
We'll see this again when they go after abortion.
What's a 'spad'?
SPecial ADvisor
usually very intelligent late 20's early 30's Russell group graduates albeit not always in the subject they are spadding on, but ability to read, assimilate and distil info to their ministers is highly refined.
Not averse to using other talents to increase their profile and position, allegedly
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_adviser_(UK)
[edit - the top level SPADs become household names, as per above there's actually 4 grades. They might not be shagging Dom, but the 26 year old Oxbridge PPE graduate.......]
So... Boris was shagging Dominic? Or is Dom bitter that he wasn't?
We’ll see this again when they go after abortion.
https://www.vice.com/en/article/jgp8p7/nhs-anti-abortion-group
Cummings is friends with Gove, so he wont be menytoning that particular indiscretion!
Is this thread still obsessed with brexit? According to Tony Blair, the man who wanted to be EU President, there is no possibility of the UK rejoining the EU for at least a generation.
Personally I think he is being too optimistic, as you might well expect him to be, but even if he is correct it really is time stop being obsessed with brexit.
Anyone who believes that the UK will be rejoining the EU anytime soon really is delusional, which adds further irony to a thread dedicated to Boris Johnson.
Whoever wins the next general election they will not be taking the UK back into the EU, both the Conservatives and Labour have made that clear. The possibility of the LibDems winning the next general election on a rejoining the EU platform is absolutely zero, despite their bizarre delusionary belief that was possible last general election when even their leader couldn't hold onto her seat.
So consequently all solutions to issues which might confront the British people will have to be based on the stark reality that the UK is not in the EU. Anyone who argues that only EU membership can solve Britian's problems will not find a responsive audience. And if that is not what you are arguing then bleedin stop going on about brexit ffs.
Hmm yes
remain fanatic
or someone who was happy to live with rights they had previously before they were mmm ripped from them.
Currently still awaiting the agreement for UK driving licences so I can drive a car again in Spain - the joy of Spanish bureaucracy and Brexit, all those little annoying bits of Brexit that weren't done.
Course I can't work anywhere other than Spain now but I'm lucky that qualifications aren't required to be recognised.
Does that make me a remain fanatic or a leave victim 🙂
According to Tony Blair, the man who wanted to be EU President, there is no possibility of the UK rejoining the EU for at least a generation.
He's probably right. But he's talking based on the politics of it all - there's no mechanism to rejoin the EU without approval of parliament/a referendum and the situation we're in is that no party can possibly win on that ticket. And that's all assuming the EU would have us again.
But the point is we're talking about whether it was a mistake. Since you want to quote him, here's what Tony Blair thought about it (2019):
the 65-year-old addressed Germany as part of the ‘Speakers Series’ that saw him call Brexit a “terrible historical mistake” before condemning the promises of Brexit advocates as being “100 percent wrong”.
You've been wrongfully imprisoned and there's no chance of release or recompense but for goodness sake, please don't moan, it's making me feel bad. Ha. Get used to hearing "We told you so" for the rest of your life.
Is this thread still obsessed with brexit?
For someone who apparently wants us to stop talking about it, you seem to be.
According to Tony Blair,
... a man who ceased to be relevant to anything, what, 15 years ago? And you want us to move on?
Is it not possible to do both now? To be really annoyed about it and determined that we don't go further still with empowerment of those that use brexit to foster division, racism, homophobia, etc. While at the same time accepting that it did happen and we need to rebuild from where we are, not where we wished we were?
Does that make me a lexiteer, or a pragmatist?
Again,
Everyone accepts that it happened. We're not daft.
Remain fanatic here. I want the rights I was born with, now sadly taken away from me due to Russia/racists/bigots/xenophobes/morons/lies/MPs protecting their £££
Is this thread still obsessed with brexit?
It's how Johnson lied and manipulated his way to being PM. You're a hundred percent correct to say "it's happened"... when it comes to leaving the EU... but I'm afraid we do need to understand what happened, and how it happened, and what we're left to deal with... because deal with it we must... many of us don't have the option to ignore it, it effects our daily work and lives negatively... yet we get on with it... sorry if we don't do it quietly, while thanking Johnson for "getting it done"... unlike nearly everyone asked about Johnson's legacy in the media over the last 24 hours. It's not done... most of it is yet to be sorted. We've done the tearing things up bit. Got a trade deal in place that's just a starting point. Now all the hard work begins of building back relationships and finding ways to remove barriers. Decades of work. All of which requires an understanding of the new position we find ourselves in... not pretending that it's all done and can be ignored.
Faites vos jeux - sunak has announced his candidacy.
Can't be long before javid and truss declare.
Will be interesting to see if the '22 change the rules to slim down the number if candidates; last time each candidate required 8 supporters - which seems a ludicrously small number - to get onto the ballot.
Yes this ^
As I said a page or two back, and as Kimbers mentioned - I've a group of scientists (a real ragtag league of nations bunch FWIW) who've had the Horizon funding rug firmly pulled. Decades of collaboration in some instances. We're very pissed off, but at the same time we have to work out how we can now continue those relationships another way. Remembering the problems division causes so we don't make more of them (and yes, also harbouring a seething resentment that sees this outcome as something to be proud of), but moving onwards rather than sitting still wishing we weren't here.
Brexit defined the last 6 years (and will continue to do similar for at least another 10). It is the sole reason Johnson got to be PM with all the circus and real lasting damage that has done to the UK. Brexit robbed me and my kids of rights we were born with and caused unnecessary economic damage that will affect everyone bar a few's lives in a bad way.
Brexit has and will deliver nothing good of any substance to anyone - bar the elites that pushed for it to profit from it.
The motives that drove people to vote Leave are many, I am sure, but on balance I would say a lot less noble than they'd like to admit.
Brexit will continue to drive political instability and economic under-performance in the UK until it is reversed, bit by bit, over a period of time. The only question is how long.
Brexit is a bad idea - end of.
The candidates have to be Conservative MPs, so you have a group of no more than a few hundred people, all of whom work together, many of whom have being PM as their lifetime ambition.
Put them all on the ballot unless they opt OUT.
Get the voters to list the top ten in order of preference.single transferable vote to knock it down to 5 candidates, then have a run-off.
Could do it in a week even allowing for a bit of time for horsetrading, I mean they all have WhatsApp now so don't even have to be in the same country.
I'm not exactly eye to eye with the Brexit Gollum on all things, but I wouldn't argue with his view that lack of real-world experience and expertise makes politics and Whitehall stupidly slow and inefficient.
And clearly it's not as if they have high standards for party leader!!!!!!
I will never accept brexit. I will continue to tell brexiteers " look what damage you have done" i will never let them forget what idiots they are. Fortunately i have a possible solution in independence for Scotland
Why will no party get elected on a platform of rejoining? The majority think it is a mistake.
The damage done will continue utill we rejoin and we will never recover the lost ground
stupidly slow and inefficient
The Tory party already have the means to elect a new leader in 48 hours, if they wish. That's pretty damn quick. Probably too quick. If they choose to take longer, it'll be to make the process more transparent, more open, and give their members a say. All of which I'm sure they'd do if they weren't in a rush to remove Big Dog before he does something else damaging to them.
A lot of the "inefficiencies" in "Whitehall" are to enable transparency and scrutiny. There's been a lot of doing away with that kind of thing in recent years. Looking at who has been pushing for those "efficiencies", and what they get up to when transparence and scrutiny isn't properly in place... we should be worried.
Also, Boris should eff off out of there NOW. His disgrace is getting close to Nixon levels of bad behaviour. It's not just "well, you're not taking the country in the right direction", it's a rich fruitcake style mix of Clinton(Bill)-levels of disgrace, outright lies to his own party, breaking laws that he had only just made himself, corruption, and hobnobbing with unfriendly foreign powers.
It's cringeworthy hearing him express sympathy for Shinzo Abe's death. We need a national leader with at least a few crumbs of dignity.
@tjagain it doesn’t matter what the majority think its what those in the red wall seats think. If labour said they would reverse Brexit they wouldn’t win those seats back. There wasn’t a huge swing to labour in the Wakefield by election despite Partygate and the last Tory MP being a peado. They should have smashed that seat.
It’s choice between a labour or lib/lab government and make the best of Brexit or Tories remaining in and making a hash of Brexit I know what I’d choose.
The new leader surely has to be someone who wasn't involved in BJ's cabinets
So who does that leave - Hunt, May, Tugenhat some randoms etc. ??
It’s choice between a labour or lib/lab government and make the best of Brexit or Tories remaining in and making a hash of Brexit I know what I’d choose.
That'll be our choice down here... and an easy choice in my opinion. It's different up there. An indy Scotland (which I don't want, but I don't have a say) wouldn't have the bad faith of recent years that the UK have to overcome when dealing with other countries. We, the UK, not trusted. And one change of government isn't enough to earn back that trust, it'll take several parliamentary terms... even if the voters want it. We need to learn, and we really should have by this point, that when it comes to our relationships with other countries, just voting for something doesn't make it so.
Sarah Dines has been made a minister. Johnson will never change. Rubbing it in the faces of Pincher’s victims, and all Conservative MPs who have voiced concerns about how Johnson and his chosen whips have operated.
I think most posters on here have enough nous to figure out that there are other world events going on that affect our lives. We’re aware it isn’t that simple.
Indeed, but as has been pointed out many times the post Covid economic recovery in the UK economy is down considerably on EU recovery. Why?
Is this thread still obsessed with brexit?
This thread is about Johnson. His "great legacy" is he got Brexit done. Except it isn't.
Peter Bone is now in the government.
The bottom of the barrel has been reached, and we are now extracting the rotten wood. It's encouraging in a way, it indicates that very few MPs are available for selection.
Johnson staying on is a real low for this country.
He's manifestly angling to still defeat his party opponents and remain as their leader.
He's scheming to the end; putting himself above the needs of the country.
Worst case scenario is he does loads of damage.
He’s manifestly angling to still defeat his party opponents and remain as their leader.
Can he stand again? I can imagine he'd get 8 supporters if he wanted to, but no way is he going to get beyond the run offs. Not even the tories are that dumb now.
The mere fact that the word remainer is still in use is an admission that Brexit was a failure or has not in fact 'been done'.
Brexit is/was shit
Tory govts are/were shit
"New Labour" was shit - lying tossers
Tony Blair was/is shit. Lying tosser
All money-grubbing ****s.
Sorry. Bad place. This makes me ashamed to be English / British / UK-ish, but impotent to do anything so pokes my depression. Sorry.
If I had the means I'd be something else
Edit: depression is shit but it's impossible to step away from this stuff as its in your face 24/7.
"Is this thread still obsessed with brexit?"
Johnson is Brexit in offal form.
This'll cheer you up fazzini
Johnson seems to be actively trying to wreck the Tory party put of spite
https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1545454683090829312?t=8IT3Mr1thPtlsS5ZY4k-PQ&s=19
Johnson seems to be actively trying to wreck the Tory party put of spite
That would be a legacy I would applaud.
From Kimbers link 😀
https://twitter.com/rhodri/status/1111254719777914881?s=20&t=v1kM4thrMgyKn4szBGc8mA
Johnson seems to be actively trying to wreck the Tory party put of spite
That would be a legacy I would applaud.
I don't see any reason why he shouldn't if they are bunch of cowards. Not worth having politicians like that but again many will replace them again ...
I don’t see any reason why he shouldn’t if they are bunch of cowards.
Not as cowardly as Johnson
After being found out time & again, hes still to cowardly to admit when he lies
Pretty gutted I was looking forward to just how bonkers baker would be
Still Braverman will be funny!
https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1545507043506900994?t=IBTV-T2-l-iqid5LwggHmg&s=19
The government job for Andrea jenkyns is particularly offensive, trump loving binhead. She makes braverman look like Ruth bader Ginsburg
[url= https://i.postimg.cc/g2qsDTWc/20220708-221424.jp g" target="_blank">https://i.postimg.cc/g2qsDTWc/20220708-221424.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
Corrupt to the last
https://twitter.com/patrickkmaguire/status/1545446437663776768?t=ghFq-GMFcjbKxvqF-xSdjw&s=19
https://twitter.com/Direthoughts/status/1545454312154873857?t=FY1L6Rg1GbFMuoD3hyW9Ww&s=19
Pretty gutted I was looking forward to just how bonkers baker would be
Still Braverman will be funny!
I thought some people might be deeply disappointed if they saw the Tory Party swinging further to the right, based on their apparent form. But perhaps politics isn't really like that for them and it's all a bit of a laugh to be enjoyed as if it's some sort of reality team sport extravaganza. Especially if they are under the impression that the consequences are unlikely to affect them in a material way such as forcing them to go hungry to the food banks.
I certainly won't find it funny if as a consequence of Johnson's pointless stupidity people on the far right of the Tory Party are propelled to the very top. In fact I will be devastated.
But then I don't feel a desire to punish voters for being stupid and voting incorrectly, as some people apparently do - if I correctly interpret the deep distain expressed by some towards the general public.
Go on, tell us ernie, who are you rooting for?
Johnson seems to be actively trying to wreck the Tory party put of spite
I’d put money on a Johnson contact having registered a new party this week, and him officially joining it in the last week of him being PM.
ernie just comes on here to talk bollocks (like the rest of us). On Monday he's Mandelson, Tuesday he's Trotsky, Wednesday Widdecombe, Thursday Thatcher and Friday is special cos he wears his Michael Foot outfit just to keep everyone on their toes.
Im pretty sure @Binners has the copyright on that image, expect a stern letter from Lawyers IN Greggs shortly
It's somewhat ironic I suppose, that Tory MPs got want they wanted at their work by withdrawing their labour.
I’d put money on a Johnson contact having registered a new party this week, and him officially joining it in the last week of him being PM.
I was just mooching around one of the more.... different.... forums. The sort of place with plenty of turn the refugees back in the sea/deport them/cancel all foreign aid/EU are the enemy posters.
Theres certainly support for him out there, and its all the medias fault, they hounded him out if power. So I suspect hed get enough membership sign ups to make a decent amount of money.
Just read a piece from Peston that suggests that the website to pledge support/get information etc for Rishi Sunak's bid to become PM was registered last December.
Just read a piece from Peston that suggests that the website to pledge support/get information etc for Rishi Sunak’s bid to become PM was registered last December.
And to think he was drafted in by Johnson as a yes-man 🙂
Has Johnson definitely actually submitted his resignation? I know he 'said' he was going to do it in his speech, but I'm wondering whether he would delay the letter to try to push the initial part of the leadership contest past the beginning of the summer recess.
Has Johnson definitely actually submitted his resignation? I know he ‘said’ he was going to do it in his speech, but I’m wondering whether he would delay the letter to try to push the initial part of the leadership contest past the beginning of the summer recess.
As I understand it, it's out of his hands now
1922 committee set the timetable and once they've picked a new leader he's automatically fired
Hopefully they have something in writing. He's a slippery ****er.
He’s manifestly angling to still defeat his party opponents and remain as their leader.
I think this is what he’s attempting(in his head) short term but i’d be surprised if plan B isn’t to establish a new party closer to the election if he can’t over throw his opponents and remain PM within the Tory party
The problem with the tories chucking him out is that it plays to the ‘will of people’ narrative used by him to gain him the premiership.
If they’d have called an election(0% chance)rather than letting a small number of people decide the next pm then the ‘will of the people’ would not be so effective.
I don’t think BJ’s particularly worried about the Tory party they are just another thing to f*** over on his journey in life doing what he wants.
Even if his new party fails he will pocket the membership fees and carry on living his life on expenses.
Hopefully they have something in writing.
LOL
The only useful thing in having it on paper is that if you run out of Andrex you have something on hand to wipe yer arse.
International treaties and the law don’t apply here anymore.
Which will be some of the BJ land mines/booby traps the new PM will have to skilfully negotiate or not they may just run with it but more foot to the pedal.
We will just have to wait and see.
I sort of hope he stays in No10 by force and does as much damage as he can to whatever he can as it can all be laid at the feet of the Conservative Party for not removing him immediately. We need to think of the long-term picture now, making it virtually impossible for the next generation or three to even think about voting for them in the future.
Can you imagine the scenes and headlines if at the next General Election the Conservatives don't even manage to get enough seats to be the opposition? It would be amazing however very unlikely.
The problem is that Johnson playing the will of the people nonsense channels those that fall for it down the gutter into the trump/qanon conspiracy space
There's already plenty of the far-riggt, antivax, covid-denying, pre-brexit overlap
Culture war is very effective but long term it's corrosive
I can't see sunak's comment that 'tax cuts must wait' playing well with most tory mps.
Furlough support will be seen as...that was then, this is now as most people are concerned about current and future circumstances not the past.
Reports that his campsign website has been ready for months will be used against him.
Add into the mix his personal wealth which will lead to accusations that he has no understanding of the increasing financial pressures facing more and more people.
I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't make the last two.
The problem with the tories chucking him out is that it plays to the ‘will of people’ narrative used by him to gain him the premiership.
See my earlier reference to "stab in the back", Germany 1930's.
If Johnson create another party he loses a voc in the hoc and thus is no longer pm. Unless he takes enough mps to remove the tory majority the tories just pick another leader who becomes pm
BBC now quoting “Downing Street” and “Number 10” throwing shade at possible future PMs. Time for them to grow some balls and tell us WHO is saying this stuff. This deniable briefing approach needs to end. Who said it. What is their role. Why should we listen to a word they say.
Might dilute the Tory vote a bit a the next GE as Ukip once did. Be ironic if the man they thought would unite the party ends up destroying it's position in the polls.