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Like I said, 100% estate inheritance tax will do that for you. It’d be wildly unpopular though.
Especially amongst those people who shout most loudly about meritocracy and how people should rise naturally to their talent level.
Today the senior Conservative backbencher Sir Bernard Jenkin said he voted for the withdrawal agreement “against my better judgment” and added that if the bill did not seriously improve the chances of restoring the executive in Stormont, “I will vote against it
The problem with that @hels is that the DUP are demanding the complete tearing up of the NIP, telling the EU to shove their deal and going full rogue state and break international law as the condition to re-enter power-sharing at Storemont
Bernard Jenkin and the rest of the ERG headbangers thought Borises oven-ready deal was capitulation to the EU and wanted No Deal. It these people rebel it’s because they think that the UK has compromised too much already. They’re completely hatstand!
These are the people who are now calling the shots. Again.
Like I said… we are truly ****ed! The agenda is being dictated by bowler-hatted, orange sash wearing, ‘no surrender!’ sectarian fruit loops and ultra- hardline Brexiteer nut jobs
Here you are TJ, especially for you - as you didn't like the last opinion poll here is the very latest one which was conducted yesterday and today and gives Labour a massive 8% lead over the Tories:
https://redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/magnified-email/issue-39/
Unfortunately according to the swingometer those figures if repeated in a general election it would result in no party winning and Labour 22 seats short of a Commons majority.
And as the 13% for the LibDems suggests that they would only secure approximately 11 seats that would still allow the Tories to use the "Labour being held to ransom by the SNP" attack line.
A lot of Tories must be feeling very smug that despite all the purely self-inflicted damage to themselves, and all the open goals presented to Labour, if there was a general election under the current situation the most likely result would be a weak, probably unstable, Labour minority government, pursuing a tory-lite agenda.
Clearing the path for a stable Tory majority government after a GE well before the full Parliamentary term.
If you see
StanSid tell him not to bother because the future costs to us all were pretty dismal.
This basically sums up the last couple of pages of posts saying what a pointless loads of bollocks his "help for homebuyers" scheme is alongside all the other empty promises.
the 13% for the LibDems suggests that they would only secure approximately 11 seats
Isn’t our voting system odd. Less than 2% of the seats predicted to represent 13% of those that vote for that party.
Clearing the path for a stable Tory majority government
If the past 30 years or so are anything to go by, this is an oxymoron.
It would still be riddled with different factions which would inevitably lead to internal strife.
The idea that you need a “majority” government (that only represents a minority of voters) to get “stability” is clearly nonsense. Not every country is Italy.
This basically sums up the last couple of pages of posts saying what a pointless loads of bollocks his “help for homebuyers” scheme is alongside all the other empty promises
I’m at the point know where I’m thinking ‘what’s the point?’. Why do they want to cling on to power when they clearly have no intention of doing anything with it.
There’s no agenda, no ideology, no plan… nothing
They don’t even seem bothered about tearing up workers rights and the rest of it, post-Brexit, which I’d sort of taken as a given
They blurt out policies like a journalist with Tourette’s but don’t follow anything up with any actions at all
They’re all just squatting their in the cabinet room presiding over absolutely nothing. Like even the slightest thing is all just too much trouble
Just puffed up ego’s and catatonic laziness. Photo ops and ministerial cars. High viz jackets and long lunches
That’s it
It’s absolutely pathetic, but I suppose it’s better than the alternative where they actually do stuff
Perish the thought
If the past 30 years or so are anything to go by, this is an oxymoron.
Not really. We currently have a stable government, irrespective of the precarious position of the current Tory leader.
There is no realistic possibility of the current government collapsing and being forced to call an early general election. The Tories will almost certainly remain in power until at least 2024, although legally iirc they don't need to call a general election until 2025.
There is no reason to assume that a Labour minority government would enjoy the same level of stability, let alone be more stable. The last Labour minority government collapsed much earlier than expected forcing an unscheduled general election to be called.
Unstable governments have a significantly negative effect on the economy, apart from the obvious political consequences, lack of predictable direction, and an inability to implement election committments.
Obviously playing down the negative consequences of a minority government has its attraction for Starmer's cheerleaders as that increasingly looks like the very best that he is likely to achieve. And he probably won't even achieve that.
Another few months and he’ll be wearing full military regalia, Gadaffi style, including a chest full of medals he’s awarded himself
Did you miss the Platinum Jubilee? 😉
Hopefully one day we’ll only have majority governments when a majority of voters support it.
Unstable governments have a significantly negative effect on the economy, apart from the obvious political consequences, lack of predictable direction, and an inability to implement election committments.
Sounds very much like our current ‘stable’ government to be honest. The only major manifesto commitment they have appeared to deliver is brexit, and not even that according to some of their own MP’s
Whichever Tory nonentity is on QT tonight has just been laughed at by the audience as he tried and failed to explain how Borises latest brain fart about forcing housing associates to sell homes is meant to alleviate housing issues
I think everyone can see it for what it is
A right load of old bollocks
Sounds very much like our current ‘stable’ government to be honest. The only major manifesto commitment they have appeared to deliver is brexit
I wasn't of course suggesting that a stable Tory government is a good result for the country, apologies if that is how it came across. Rather I was pointing out the advantages of a stable government over an unstable one. The Tories have long exploited this fear in recent times, first Cameron and then Theresa May with her 'strong and stable' mantra.
The fact that there isn't lack of certainty concerning whether a government will survive the next couple of years does have a positive effect on the economy of any country .
Furthermore I am constantly hearing, on this forum anyway, that the government can do whatever it likes because of its 80 seat majority, and therefore not to expect the opposition to be able to do anything.
Indeed some people even go as far as to claim that Labour doesn't need to have any alternative policies until campaigning starts for the next general election, such is the hold that the Tories allegedly have on political power.
If the Tories are not delivering on manifesto promises then it is due to incompetence or a complete lack of commitment rather than because they are weak and unstable.
Raise your eyes up from the floor. Stable governments persist in countries where no one party holds a majority of seats. Germany being the most obvious example.
Minority governments and coalition governments are not the same thing.
The last coalition government in the UK was perfectly stable. It lasted its entire parliamentary term.
The last minority government in the UK was not stable. It did not last its entire parliamentry term.
HTH
It does grate me a tad that people spend so much time trying to figure out why the Tories are so awful, or worse didn't expect the Tories to be so bad then spend so much time in this thread being staggered at their behaviour.
I mean, they're Tories. Wedded to an impossible to reconcile ideology for reasonable brains.
We really should be giving Labour a difficult time too as they're the only ones capable of offering up something better and putting it to them.
Or is it embarrassing that Labour didn't quite deliver the goods you thought? - so easier to hide behind what the Tories have done wrong rather than what Labour have done right?
That said I understand the need for a Tory frustration chamber.
But hey the Starmer thread is a quiet place these days.
If you see Stan Sid tell him not to bother because the future costs to us all were pretty dismal.
Of course! It's a distant memory.
The last minority government in the UK was not stable. It did not last its entire parliamentry term.
The last minority government only existed because the previous majority government called an early election and did not last its entire parliamentary term. And most PMs in my lifetime have lost their position because they were ejected or quit while head of a majority government. Stability isn’t an automatic trait of majority government, even in the UK (where they tend to only have minority support anyway… cuckoo governments ruling without true consent).
I mean, they’re Tories. Wedded to an impossible to reconcile ideology for reasonable brains.
You would need to be naive to think that the Tories actually believe the nonsense they tell voters. The point is that firstly with a compliant press and a weak and massively unconfident opposition they are very successful in creating widely believed and lasting myths.
Take the Thatcher myth of low taxation and small government, 40 years later many people still believe that those two goals were achieved by Thatcher despite the reverse being actually true.
A more recent myth is the one which, massively helped by the LibDems, claimed the need for the elimination of the budgetary deficit within the term of one parliament.
These myths were indepensable in helping the Tories to win power. The second point is that on the back of these myths the Tories have been highly successful in shifting wealth away from ordinary people and into the hands of the class which they exist to serve.
Despite all the claims of incompetence and stupidity the Tories are actually extremely good at serving their own self-interests and holding on to political power.
I agree that this thread is clearly obsessed with discussing the awfulness of the Tories, it's almost as if some people have just discovered it. I also agree that very few people want to consider or talk about the alternative to the Tories, which is presumably why this thread appears to have a huge amount of contributors whilst the Starmer thread has comparatively very few. I guess it's always a lot easier to criticise than to offer solutions.
Kelvin if you are seriously claiming that minority governments are no less stable than majority governments you have lost the plot mate. I know you want to suggest that there is nothing inherently unstable about minority governments because it is the very best likely outcome of the next general election but it is frankly ridiculous.
There is no realistic possibility of the current government collapsing and being forced to call an early general election
Given it's performance so far, that's a somewhat risky prediction. There's every possibility of it collapsing. Any organisation is only as good as it's leadership, and more and more of it's backbenchers are realising that's it's hollow at it's centre, and given the result of the confidence vote, the Cabinet can't rely on the support of their own backbenchers for some of their more outlandish policies. (Rwanda and unilateral dismantling of the Irish border protocol for example)
Brady hasn't ruled out another confidence vote. Ministers have resigned and more and more Tory MPs are publicly voicing or writing their disapproval, and Johnson is as unpopular amongst much of the conservative voting public as it's possible to be. Two by-elections are coming, the Tories may just make a calculation based on that performance as their chances at the next election with Johnson as leader.
the Cabinet can’t rely on the support of their own backbenchers for some of their more outlandish policies. (Rwanda and unilateral dismantling of the Irish border protocol for example)
Maybe, maybe not. Problem is those opposed to Johnson have a varying set of reasons. Hence throwing some even more outlandish policies might buy some more support.
There’s every possibility of it collapsing.
There is no possibility of a parliamentary vote of no confidence in the government. The only way there will be an early general election is if the Tory prime minister, whoever it might be, feels very confident that they will easily win it.
Well, Johnson will soon be asking his MPs to vote to unilaterally change his oven ready deal…
https://twitter.com/jp_biz/status/1535141995278176257?s=21
…an open opportunity for a rebellion. I don’t think many will vote against on first reading… but I also think it’ll never make it to statute. Should companies act as if it will or won’t become law? So much stability.
Oh yes, Johnson hasn't the worry of a very organised and single minded internal group like May faced, but that doesn't mean that they won't organise themselves.
There is no possibility of a parliamentary vote of no confidence in the government.
You simply can't make that assumption, and in fact the situation now in comparison to the last time it happen (Callaghan in the 1970's) are similar. Declining economy, Scotland act (early attempts at devolution, it's not a million miles away from The Border Protocol issue)...besides which, again, Brady hasn't ruled out the possibility of a confidence vote, and if Johnson loses that one, then there'll be a new leader, they may feel (like May) that they need their own mandate.
If one thing is clear about politics currently, lots of the certainties around it no longer hold true.
They do need to coalesce around a credible leadership candidate, though, and Jeremy Hunt is not that thing.
Johnson has effectively neutered the threat from Rishi by leaking his financial affairs (my assumption that he was the source of the leaks), and the news that he lost 11bn down the back of the sofa by not hedging against interest rate rises should be the final death knell to his political ambitions.
I guess it’s always a lot easier to criticise than to offer solutions.
Why proffer solutions that will enable the clown circus to limp on for some months more. Let them wallow in their own ordure and expose their incompetence to the undecided so that when the time comes we get a more balanced parliament.
You simply can’t make that assumption
Of course you can make that assumption. There has only been one successful vote of no confidence in the government in the last 98 years, and the then government certainly didn't have an 80 seat majority.
What no confidence votes do is force ruling party backbenchers to rally behind their government. If you believe Tory MPs are going to bring down their own government dream on.
The last time disaffected Tory backbenchers rallied round Johnson was when one of their own defected to Labour.
A good article in this mornings Guardian by Bob Kerslake, the chair of the Peabody Group of Housing Associations, taking apart the whole ludicrous ‘policy’
Right to buy put homes in the hands of landlords. Rehashing it will do the same
And a more literal interpretation from Newsthump
Banks confirm they will happily give a mortgage for a £250,000 house to UC claimants on £350 a month
As an aside - there is a good reason not many people are left in the Starmer thread and it isn't because Starmer is (insert criticism word) it was starting to feel like one of those arguments in the pub when people just shout the same things at each other and nobody listens, which happens around here quite a lot. People who wanted a drink and a lively and interesting discussion moved outside to the garden bar.
I also agree that very few people want to consider or talk about the alternative to the Tories, which is presumably why this thread appears to have a huge amount of contributors whilst the Starmer thread has comparatively very few.
This is the reason I post more on the Starmer thread than on here. It's all very well whining about how terrible the tories are, but no one seems interested in what a proper alternative could be like. There was an alternative for a few years not so long ago, but many of the same people who whine about the tories spent even more time whining about Corbyn. I can only conclude that what most supposed left-leaning types on here want is a nice, boring, friendly version of the tory party in charge.
I can only conclude that what most supposed left-leaning types on here want is a nice, boring, friendly version of the tory party in charge.
Yep, the left leaning section of the voting public that supported Corbyn (or policies/ parties like him) is the smallest constituency of the voting public in the UK by long way.
Oh Christ! One of them has escaped from the Starmer thread and is now trying to derail this one
Now, now dear…. come along with me and we’ll just pop you back in there so the 5 of you can carry on shouting at each other…
nickc Full Member
besides which, again, Brady hasn’t ruled out the possibility of a confidence vote, and if Johnson loses that one, then there’ll be a new leader, they may feel (like May) that they need their own mandate.
Weren't a bunch of senior Tories trotting out a line a while back that any change of leader/PM would necessitate a general election? I think they were doing it to scare their backbenchers away from submitting letters to the 1922 committee, but their words may come back to haunt them if Johnson does resign or gets forced out.
People who wanted a drink and a lively and interesting discussion moved outside to the garden bar.
Which is what this thread is about. I feel that I'm sitting in the beer garden everyday, as I hear people whining endlessly how terrible the Tories are. It's great.
Weren’t a bunch of senior Tories trotting out a line a while back that any change of leader/PM would necessitate a general election? I think they were doing it to scare their backbenchers away from submitting letters to the 1922 committee, but their words may come back to haunt them if Johnson does resign or gets forced out
Their mistake was trusting someone as inherently untrustworthy as Johnson in the first place. They knew full well what they would get when they made him leader and now we are where we are
If they’re still delusional enough to think that Johnson has any loyalty to them or views the Tory party as anything more than a vehicle for his ambition then they may be in for a shock
Underneath that bumbling exterior he’s a vicious and vindictive bastard and would pull the whole house of cards down in an instant if he felt it had served it’s purpose to him personally
I wouldn’t rule anything out when it comes to Boris. He’ll do what he’s done all his life, put himself first and walk away to leave everybody else to deal with the smouldering wreckage
then there’ll be a new leader, they may feel (like May) that they need their own mandate.
The reason Theresa May called an early general election was because all the opinion polls (before the election was actually called) claimed that she would easily win a huge majority.
Boris Johnson did exactly the same thing for exactly the same reason.
Gordon Brown didn't call an early general election because all the opinion polls suggested that he risked losing it.
No Tory leader will call an early general election because it is "the right thing to do". They will only call an early general election if they feel it will leave them stronger.
What Tory leader is likely to feel that they can be in a stronger position than an 80 seat majority?
but their words may come back to haunt them if Johnson does resign or gets forced out.
Nah that was then and this is now. Its a completely different scenario for blindingly obvious reasons which shouldnt need explaining.
If you do carry on demanding an explanation then its dead cat time.
As a casual recent example just look at Rees-Mogg and his "May had 113 mps vote against her so the people have spoken and she should go" vs now when Johnson didnt rather worse.
77 seat majority I think? And about to be 73 after a couple of byelections....
70 if you like.
I would like minus 70 ernielynch but I am not Queen yet!
As an aside – there is a good reason not many people are left in the Starmer thread and it isn’t because Starmer is (insert criticism word)
I think the primary reason is that Starmer gives us very little to discuss.
As an aside – there is a good reason not many people are left in the Starmer thread and it isn’t because Starmer is (insert criticism word)
I think the primary reason is that Starmer gives us very little to discuss.
Well it's had more posts than this thread, so there must be something!
I usually stay well out of the Starmer thread though - despite being a Labour voter, donator and union member, I wouldn't really feel comfortable expressing an opinion there.
It's much more comfortable to come in here and call Johnson a ****!
Well it’s had more posts than this thread, so there must be something!
No it’s just the same few people being constantly completely correct concerning KS.
It’s much more comfortable to come in here and call Johnson a ****!
Something we can all agree on!
It’s much more comfortable to come in here and call Johnson a ****!
Yes it's definitely easier to criticise Johnson than it is to defend Starmer.
No it’s just the same few people being constantly completely correct concerning KS.
What a load of bollox. Is there some post-brexit thread rule where everyone has to agree with each other? The Starmer thread is the only political thread on here where two sides of an argument are posted, along with a lot of discussion in between. Unlike this thread, the brexit thread and dare I say it the Ukraine thread where dissenting voices are not tolerated.
Unlike this thread, the brexit thread and dare I say it the Ukraine thread where dissenting voices are not tolerated.
Every now and again I post a dissenting opinion on this thread and then leave it for a while to carry on its usual trajectory. The brexit thread I have never posted on although I do regularly read it, I particularly like gardentiger/dannyh's posts. The Ukraine thread I stopped reading a long time ago so have no idea what is happening there.
where dissenting voices are not tolerated
This is not a thing. “Dissenting voices” might not find much common agreement with many other posters, but that’s not the same thing.
Yes it’s definitely easier to criticise Johnson than it is to defend Starmer.
Something to agree on.
Now… back to the Boris Johnson show…
What a load of bollox Is there some post-brexit thread rule where everyone has to agree with each other?
Not at all.
Ymmv, but I find it quite a tedious thread with a few big hitters constantly pontificating and little else. It’s not about disagreeing or dissent.
the Ukraine thread where dissenting voices are not tolerated.
Not tolerated? I thought you just got debated with for talking cobblers? Didn’t realise you’d be cancelled.
OK now we are arguing about the arguing - that was my fault and I do apologise!
In many ways this is a very British thread. Expressing disapproval is a very British characteristic.
And complaining about the awfulness of the Tories is about as useful as complaining about how awful the weather is - which of course is what Brits like to complain about most.
Carry on being British
This government has really led me to doubt the claim that things go better with coke.
In many ways this is a very British thread. Expressing disapproval is a very British characteristic.
Shits getting real, comrade
I’ve tutted loudly and rolled my eyes on at least three occasions this week.
And that’s as close to a revolution as we’re going to get in this country
Expressing disapproval is a very British characteristic...Carry on being British
I’m Irish actually.
Oh dear someone's left the door open, they've now all escaped from the Starmer thread.
that’s as close to a revolution as we’re going to get in this country
Replacing the awfulness of the Tories with something substantially different and better shouldn't require a revolution.
But perhaps you are right and everyone should just lie down, close their eyes, and think of England.
As Thatcher famously said, "there is no alternative".
I’ve tutted loudly and rolled my eyes on at least three occasions this week.
I've sighed audibly while reading a headline, it's that bad.
I’ve sighed audibly while reading a headline, it’s that bad.
Maybe we're getting close to this stage...
[img] 
?auto=webp&s=8d6499de73de3708d552e391fa8b5eeba2125706[/img]
But perhaps you are right and everyone should just lie down, close their eyes, and think of England.
That’s just what happens in this country. The establishment have manufactured a myth over decades. It’s all ‘stuff upper lip’ this and ‘keep calm and carry on’ that. Quiet desperation and suffering in silence
Not for us the frightful Gallic stuff of petrol bombs and dumping horse manure on municipal buildings. How uncouth
Better to sigh to oneself and seek solace in a nice cup of tea having just been roughly buggered by your housemaster
It's a myth that Britain doesn't have a revolutionary past: the Civil War, Chartism, General Strike, Victoria was terrified of going to Manchester out of fear of revolutionary assassins. No ruling class is there forever despite what they'd have you believe.
OK now we are arguing about the arguing
Now that really is peak STW!
OK now we are arguing about the arguing
No we’re not.
Victoria was terrified of going to Manchester out of fear of revolutionary assassins.
They all live in Hebden Bridge nowadays
OK now we are arguing about the arguing
No we’re not.
Well you should be. People like you are part of the problem because.....reasons....
Oh dear someone’s left the door open, they’ve now all escaped from the Starmer thread.
Maybe the limit of 100 loops around the same discussion point has been hit.
They’re all out now…
I love that Government is always so far behind the times, finally recognising that Netflix exists and is apparently something to aspire to without having yet caught up with reality.
So, the government get Henry Dimbleby to put a report together for a white paper on future UK food policy. He proposes an extension of free school meals, tackling climate change with a reduction of meat and dairy consumption and a tax on salty and sugary foods to address obesity
But the government decide to completely ignore all that and suggest that instead, we should all eat more venison
Literally, let them eat deer
https://twitter.com/clearrealist/status/1535424265138237440?s=21&t=UMnEDBH5tfm0VDdKYnB8vw
Well that'll keep those poor folk in Ambridge in business for a while then.
The problem with venison and the cost of living crisis is that it is awfully deer (IGMC)
Everything coming off the tory bench is a whiff of an idea with no substance to try and keep Boris in power and/or a dead cat.
At the same time, this is rumbling on: https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/housing/east-anglia-green-pylons-national-grid-norfolk-villages-8966724
Green my arse.
Government minister (Heather Wheeler - so probably one you haven't heard of) describes Blackpool and Birmingham as 'godawful'😂
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-61767856
The whole 'levelling up' thing definitely isn't bullshit...
I can't think what it/they were, but I'm sure there were other Tory policy "one liners" since '10 where they could be construed as one thing for Tories and their donators and then given weak alternative explanations as regards the greater good of the nation.
"Levelling up" to me seems more like trying to make the Tory supporting rich more equal with the world rich.
Yeah, although Blackpool is objectively godawful.
At the same time, this is rumbling on: https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/housing/east-anglia-green-pylons-national-grid-norfolk-villages-8966724
/blockquote>We need more power at as low a cost as reasonable due to current economic conditions. Those bitching about the overhead lines could opt to pay more for their electricity if they want the route diverted, but guess what they won't. The usual those with a little expecting everyone else to pay for their comfort. It's being buried in Dedham Vale an AoNB but overground everywhere else, where there is all ready an overhead transmission line that is currently being updated with new cable and insulators.