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Well, Johnson sounds VERY pleased about the Sue Gray report coming out today, so we can assume there’s very little in it. By design. I suspect Today’s Brexit noise will be about distracting from the redactions, not what’s left of the content.
Well, given that Dick’s wife Helen Ball is also the Met’s head of professional standards who would lead any investigation regarding whether the Met should’ve done a better job at looking at illegal parties at no10 and her no 2 is Savid Javid’s Brother Baz…I think we can all draw our own conclusions as to why Johnson looks quite relaxed all of a sudden.
Brexit is what happens when you extend democracy too far by having a referendum.
Extend democracy too far? FFS we have precious little democracy in this country how can we extend it too far? You sound like a tinpot dictator. The answer is always more democracy, because the alternative is corruption, elitism and ultimately fascism. If you think the people aren't equipped to make decisions which affect them then that's an incredibly patronising and elitist attitude.
What we should be doing of course is ensuring that the electorate is educated in the issues and has access to the facts and arguments so they can make an informed decision. This is where we're going wrong.
Well, given that Dick’s wife Helen Ball is also the Met’s head of professional standards
That seems to be incorrect.
All the redacted report does is prolong the row. the truth will come out in its entirety and there are still the local elections to be had. Johnson is only thinking about his survival this week. The best thing for the tories as a party was that this all came out now, Johnson was deposed and then a new leader can get on with the agenda.
its really not going away and the longer it goes on the worse the damage is
If you think the people aren’t equipped to make decisions which affect them then that’s an incredibly patronising and elitist attitude.
It all depends on the information that’s front and centre when making the decisions. When it comes down to “democracy”, it doesn’t just mean voting, it also comes down to the campaigns. When the guy running one of the campaigns tells us afterwards that the campaign contained deliberate lies, because they knew that people trying to counter those lies would result in reinforcing the message they are part of… we all shrug and say “well, there was a vote, democracy has been done, get over it”.
EDIT: ah, a second paragraph. Yes, what you say there.
dazh - look at the referendums in Switzerland. there they have a system of referenda that are automatically triggered if there is sufficient folk sign up for them. It has lead to some really nasty decisions which fortunately the federal government can ignore
I think if we had a similar system we would see capital punishment back, further impoverishment of the poor, etc etc
If you think the people aren’t equipped to make decisions which affect them then that’s an incredibly patronising and elitist attitude.
And what of the past 5 years tells you otherwise?
That seems to be incorrect
which bit?
Report handed over.
Let's see what happens.
https://news.sky.com/story/sue-gray-report-given-to-boris-johnson-as-long-awaited-inquiry-into-downing-street-lockdown-parties-concludes-12525650
Will Johnson throw his new EU ‘Freedom’ bill on the table first
AKA moving more areas of 'control/laws' into Secondary Legislation...
No 10 has now received the Sue Gray report, the Cabinet Office says.
Or at least, a version of it. Here is the statement from a Cabinet Office spokesperson said:
We can confirm that Sue Gray has provided an update on her investigations to the prime minister.
The description of the report as an “update” implies that Gray definitely does not see it as the finished version (she has had to leave out the most incriminating material at the request of the police), and perhaps that she does envisage publishing a final version once the police inquiry is over.
From the Grauniad live blog
I suspect that anyone expecting to be any the wiser by the end of the day will be disappointed.
Is there anyone who doesn't think this is going to be the mother of all stitch-ups?
Me
the paranoia is large on this
Johnson will try to bluster it out but it appears Grey is going to release an update today redacted then comes the police investigation and prosecutions then comes the full Grey report
its just going to rumble on and on and continue to cause damage which gets greater the longer it runs on
The answer is always more democracy, because the alternative is corruption, elitism and ultimately fascism.
Hmmm... not sure I agree here. Too many things to vote on could mean people get turned off. What we need is accountability and transparency, and ultimately that should translate to the ballot box; however it doesn't necessarily need more ballot boxes.
IANAL but an actual lawyer found it odd that anything had to be kept back as the offences would be subjected to fixed penalty fines and not be going to a jury trial so makes no difference if the names are out there. Just then up to the met to issue fines or not based on what the most bent of coppers, namely Dick, instructs.
The problem for Johnson is anything other than a complete exoneration implies a level of guilt.
The fact evidence has been handed to the police makes that highly unlikely .
What we need is accountability and transparency, and ultimately that should translate to the ballot box; however it doesn’t necessarily need more ballot boxes.
I said more democracy, not more referendums. Accountability and transparency are fundamental parts of democracy. If we have more of those, we have more democracy. Ultimately it boils down to the public having more involvement and agency in decision making. That doesn't necessarily mean more ballots, it could be via other mechanisms such as local forums, consultations, debates, town hall meetings, campaigns, surveys etc. The more people are involved, the more they will be informed and the better the decisions will be. Or we can just continue to abdicate responsibility and power to a tiny number of self interested and corrupted officials and representatives.
The longer it goes on the more people with have forgotten about it and/or lost their venom. Political memories are about 3 weeks, people are already 'moving on' from Serco and the billions paid out to fraudsters. The more we hear about not robbing a bank, everyone was doing it, Christian forgiveness, the more people will be ground down by it. That's why they do it because it works.
the offences would be subjected to fixed penalty fines
Assumes the offences being investigated are confined to covid regulation breaches.
IANAL but an actual lawyer found it odd that anything had to be kept back as the offences would be subjected to fixed penalty fines and not be going to a jury trial so makes no difference if the names are out there. Just then up to the met to issue fines or not based on what the most bent of coppers, namely Dick, instructs.
Depends if there were other offences uncovered - misconduct in a public office, perverting the course of justice.
Accountability and transparency are fundamental parts of democracy. If we have more of those, we have more democracy. Ultimately it boils down to the public having more involvement and agency in decision making.
People will be more involved if they have representation. Most people in England don’t have a representative at the local or UK level.
I always had a representative at the EU level I could write to (someone put there by my vote, who is reasonably aligned with my own politics, and with an interest in keeping my vote). I’ve never had a representative in the UK parliament. My vote has never helped elect an MP. Not once in my life. I have never had an MP who would address any question or suggestion I’ve put to them. I’m blocked by my current MP on all Social Media, and letters just get a dismissive non-response from his team. Makes it very clear that he is in parliament to represent those who voted for him. Which in term of accountability, is true.
So we’re expecting a bit of a non-report, the met investigation to be drawn out as long as possible and kept as opaque as possible with the aim that the only apparently non-corrupt investigation via Ms Grey is public so far into the future it can be dismissed as old news.
I suspect that Cummings won’t let that happen and will ensure this is blown wide open eventually and the cover up described above will be what actually does for Johnson and this group. So Cummings is basically giving them enough rope to hang themselves ?
The longer it goes on the more people with have forgotten about it and/or lost their venom. Political memories are about 3 weeks, people are already ‘moving on’ from Serco and the billions paid out to fraudsters.
This so much.
It's easier than ever these days with all the noise and contradictory information that stuff doesn't stick.
Difficult that - for the well being of everyone - as the RW commentators get the most impact day in day out. They get to decide the debate.
I can't see a way out unless there is a break from protecting the status-quo.
That doesn’t necessarily mean more ballots, it could be via other mechanisms such as local forums, consultations, debates, town hall meetings, campaigns, surveys etc.
I would call that 'better' democracy.
But as I've said before, a lot of people don't engage because they don't really understand any of it. They just see people arguing on the news and wonder what it has to do with them. That's why we need more and better education. If people realised what was supposed to happen they would get a bit more annoyed when it doesn't, and change would follow.
Ultimately it boils down to the public having more involvement and agency in decision making.
I was trying to think how our present system of governance could get any worse. You just answered my question 😀
the differnce between the other scandals and this is that this is easy for the average bod in the street to relate to. Its personal and will not be forgotton or forgiven. Also this from the Grauniad
I'm told Gray's use of the word 'update' to describe what she has handed to No10 rather than 'report' is very pregnant. Because of the omissions forced by the Met, she is adamant it is not the finished article, and by implication should not be seen by anyone as the final word.
In a few weeks time will be the police report and then the full gray report.
The public might not move on in that timespan, but the papers will. And his MPs will breath a sigh of relief and let him carry on. But will the public have moved on by the next election? Yes, and probably moved on from many other examples of “one rule for the many, no rules for the few” that will come to light, and probably be enshrined in law, over the coming years. It’ll all get normalised. Johnson has lost some support for good because of this “ We’re the only ones allowed to party” mess of arrogance and lies and coverups… but many more will move on, and return to him, once the pandemic is in the past.
Assumes the offences being investigated are confined to covid regulation breaches.
I recall a news outlet saying that the Met had confirmed it was just breaches of Covid regulations they were investigating, and that they were going to write to people asking them to pay/explain.
Which does not justify keeping the report secret.
What is said to justify that is the need to keep suspects in the dark about how much the police have on them, so they don't get together and create a common story that fits with all the evidence. This is reasonable enough in principle, but I am not sure it would work in this situation, with so many people involved. I don't think there is any law against revealing information you happen to know that might help this (is it obstruction?), but as the civil service and the police are supposed to be on the same side, they can't really not co-operate with a reasonable request to keep evidence up their sleeve for the time being. The "reasonable" bit being debatable here. Of course, had the Met launched their own investigation promptly, they would have been in possession of all the evidence, not Grey, so they would have been in control of the situation.
In a few weeks time will be the police report and then the full gray report.
That is what you (we) think should happen... the doesn't mean that it will happen.
"Hmmm… not sure I agree here. Too many things to vote on could mean people get turned off."
'What another one?' (Said in heavy Bristol accent)
So when does it get published on the .gov website then? Or will he spend days checking what he can get away with redacting.
The longer it goes on the more people with have forgotten about it and/or lost their venom. Political memories are about 3 weeks, people are already ‘moving on’ from Serco and the billions paid out to fraudsters.
I've said pretty much from the beginning (more out of fear than anything) that he'll get away with all of this somehow. I really hope I'm wrong!
I was trying to think how our present system of governance could get any worse. You just answered my question
Of course you do because you're a classic authoritarian establishment labour supporter. You think handing unaccountable power to preening egotists like Wes Streeting is a good idea. It's funny because despite your supposed hatred of the left, this 'trust in those who know better' view is straight out of the Marxist-Leninist playbook. It's very odd that a so-called 'party of the people' has so little trust in them. And they wonder why no one will vote for them!
You think handing unaccountable power to preening egotists like Wes Streeting is a good idea.
You're doing the "here's what I think happens in your head, not what you wrote" thing there Dazh. You can think that politicians should be held to account better without agreeing that the way do to that is with more direct votes on individual policies by the (engaged) public.
It’s funny because despite your supposed hatred of the left, this ‘trust in those who know better’ view is straight out of the Marxist-Leninist playbook
No it isn't. I've told you before that I think we should dissolve parliament and hand the logistics of running the country over to Tesco or Amazon. Thats not Marxist-Leninist, its Every Little Helpsist.
It will be released as a Wordle and you will have to guess the answer yourself.
Yep, all this collusion with corruption just engenders cynicism, demoralisation and dejection in the electorate. On the bright side up and down the country minor victories have been won by striking binmen and bus drivers obviously without any support from the parliamentary parties. I hear the Labour Coventry council are trying to recruit blackleg binmen to quell industrial action, I'm sure the Tories would approve.
Blackleg Binmen are doing a session for Mark Riley on6 Music this evening
hand the logistics of running the country over to Tesco or Amazon
Genuinely frightening!
🙈
Does anyone think that Johnson will address the Commons today at 15:30, explain how, not only should a party never have happened 'on his watch' at No 10, that he did indeed join it, before he throws himself to the mercy of the British Public to forgive this, and all his very many previous lies before resigning?
Of is he going to lie through his teeth, bluster and refuse to accept he's done anything wrong?
The latter.
I'm pretty ****ing demoralised by the whole thing.
The corroboration in recent days that he lied about intervening for those dogs seems to have been ignored too.
Probably going to say that we need to wait for the outcome of the Police investigation and the full report (that he may or may not release) before drawing any conclusions.
I'm wondering what time the report will be released, I suspect 15:25 at the earliest.
Whitewash;
a deliberate attempt to conceal unpleasant or incriminating facts about a person or organization in order to protect their reputation.
Greywash;
a deliberate attempt to conceal unpleasant or incriminating facts about a person or organization in order to protect their reputation.
Since its only going to be the unimportant stuff today he will be making a big thing about it and saying sorry for them before waffling on about vaccines, gdp etc.
The trick will be trying to conflate the minor cases with all the cases and so get people to start thinking it was all exaggerated and hopefully get bored with it before the more serious cases are brushed under the carpet by the met and hence in theory should be made available.
The only thing giving me a little hope is the whole Met intervention- why bother getting your tame police force to defang the investigation, if you didn't think it had fangs?
time to make a cup of tea and have a quick break from work
Completely devoid of detail on what we actually want to know, like what Boris was aware of and what he was present at. Agree with others that this serves only to help the whole thing fizzle out over time
Well, I hope you, as I do, all consider the matter closed. Now move along.
like what Boris was aware of and what he was present at
That’s what I also came to post… (echo chamber)… not a single reference to what the PM knew or did, and whether that contradicts what he has said he knew or did.
Wow it's taken over a week to put together a couple of pages saying 'there were parties, they shouldn't have happened, there are lessons to be learned'. Incredible.
A crucial issue with her terms of reference is that she isnt investigating the party in Boris Johnson's flat on his birthday, just the one in the cabinet room... seems like that would have been the obvious one that would have caused the PM real issues.
Agree that the lack of detail is annoying but not surprising
No, what's she's said there in Bruneep's clip is that its not possible e.g she's been prevented. Thats tells you what we all know;
Cover up.
For anyone who read the actual report via the Link above to the HM gov website, don't forget to select the correct answer in response to the invitation at the bottom of the page:
Is this page Useful? Yes/No
I think there is enough there to cause him more problems (failure of leadership, things happening that shouldn't have been allowed, other things escalating beyond what was reasonable). Also comparing their claim to be so hard-working and put upon into context with other parts of the country (eg health workers) is a good thing
12 of 16 parties being investigated to police is not nothing, especially as one is in Johnson's golden wallpapered flat.
Im sure he will spin it as lesson learned, lets move on
but its worded to show that Gray has been neutered by the Met
Month by month, the Sue Gray Report will grow into a fascinating encyclopaedia of government law-breaking for you and all your family. This attractive binder free with Issue One now …order yours today
Usually, if a civil case or claim or some other non-criminal enquiry (eg. Coroner’s inquest) is stayed until the conclusion of a criminal case, it’s because the stakes are highest in the latter. This is the opposite really - I don’t care if he gets a £100 ticket or a £10k fine, he’ll get someone else to pay it anyway - I care that that he gets dealt with by either Parliament, the Government or the party. Sue Grey should just say bollocks to the police investigation and publish it.
I think the bits I have seen are really damning and damaging. Its not a fatal blow but its another twist of the knife. He will find this hard to ride out given this is the least damning bit!
Of course Johnson will try to put a line under it but because there is more to come its impossible for him to do so
Wild prediction about the Met findings, based on what's in this "update": Every single "event" will be disconnected from the PM.... they won't say he "wasn't responsible"... but they will say that it's either "unclear" who was responsible (there's so many of them, and they're all terribly busy) or they'll pin the blame on a scapegoat and ignore whether they were acting for the PM. Even if there is eventually a full report from Gray (I doubt there will be), it will be about staff and culture, not the PM himself.
Good work in tough circumstances - Sue must be in line for a gong.
Sue is keeping the full unredacted report away from government!
https://twitter.com/AdamWagner1/status/1488160801055776772
Having now read the full update and other bits I am astonished how damning it is. Remember all MPs are versed in civil service speak and there is no doubt at all its really bad news for Johnson - of course he will be desperately trying to spin it but there is no wriggle room at all. the buck stops with Johnson.
Johnson and friends will now step up the trotting out of "Getting on with more important things and success of vaccine/booster rollout.." party line. I have been impressed how every Tory on TV over the weekend has stuck to the script.
its Every Little Helpsist.
Did anyone else read that in the style of Gollum ?
Sue is keeping the full unredacted report away from government!
It doesnt say that. It says all the supporting information is being kept back which would tend to expect since "admin assistant x" would have probably wanted some confidence that they wouldnt be named pointing out that "department head y" had been happily breaking the laws.
Yeah agreed TJagain, this essentially says the police are investigating multiple times the PM broke his own laws
Agreed TJ, given the office that has published this, and given the lack of detail, the wording is brilliantly damning.
"The whole of the country rose to the challenge. Ministers, special advisers and the Civil Service, of which I am proud to be a part, were a key and dedicated part of that national effort.
"However, as I have noted, a number of these gatherings should not have been allowed to take place or to develop in the way that they did.
"There is significant learning to be drawn from these events which must be addressed immediately across government.
"This does not need to wait for the police investigations to be concluded."
That last line is perfection. Ok, Boris will ignore it but she's immediately taking away the standard "oh we'll just have to wait for the investigation" crap that we all know is coming
I think it's more damming than most people knee-jerk reaction would lead us to believe. Without giving specifics, She's managed to say there have been a failure of leadership that's hard to justify.
The next few hours are going to be pretty interesting, let's not forget, Johnson managed to get a VONC decision delayed until today, that's not the same as asking them to forget about it and move on if the Gray report isn't conclusively damming. He's dropped the EU freedom bill to try to appease the right of the party, if he doesn't resign during his address in 25 mins (doesn't seem likely) he's got a final chance to sell himself to his party again, or the VONC letters might be in before nightfall.
There's no real bad outcome for non-Tory voters, if he goes, then it's a major political win for Labour and others, a new PM with 2 years to fight a GE, which will start ramping up in the next year or two, if he stays, it's a massive stick to beat him with, over and over again.
I fancy the rest of the report will only see the light of day if it's leaked. Dick has already said words to the effect of "high profile cases like this aren't the work of a few months", it'll probally be concluded, oh I don't know, about the 3rd of May 2024...
Tory MPs will stay loyal
At least there is reference to booze at work meetings needing review. What about the cheese ?
She has taken away his best defense lines. I especially like the way she totally removed the idea that the folk in downing street where acting under huge pressure a she compares it to others
She makes it clear that the failures go all the way to the top
She damns them for drinking
She kills the idea all staff thought it OK
Boris on the way to Parliament - let's see if he turns up at 3:30pm
Next he'll be asking Putin to speed up invading Ukraine as a diversion
it’s a massive stick to beat him with, over and over again.
Let's see: There were no parties the rules were followed.
I'm furious to discover that there were parties,
I was at a party but I didn't know it was a party,
No one told me they were against my own rules.
The cops are investigating actual parties that I actually went to in my own flat...
I think there's plenty to be going on with, Good job he feels no shame, eh?
When Johnson gets through this... do we stop pointing at Russian politics with incredulity?
He's not going. Standby for some scapegoats...
He's blaming the Civil Service.
Tosser.