It’s a bizarre situation when the tories seem to be more bothered about supporting workers than labour are.
Yes.
I guess they've been backed into a corner about private enterprise having to step up and deliver the results to the economy - having been supported through the pandemic.
It gets the Tories out of state supported responsibility of the market. (Temporarily). It's convenient.
But we know the buck stops with the state no matter what your ideology. Some of them don't yet understand that.
They're in for a shock, after this minor uptick we will be back to recession. Just like we were heading Q4 2019.
But we know the buck stops with the state no matter what your ideology. Some of them don’t yet understand that.
How people can still not grasp this... after the 2008 crash... after the pandemic... it's crazy, isn't it. They'll still be drawing their pensions though...
In the Owen jones clip above, 6min 40seconds in.........Id like to see that fat ****er repeat his claim of "people need to sit down and work out their money" to my mate, she'd ****ing lamp him.
John Crace, as always, perfectly summarises Johnson’s speech… politics as light entertainment for morons
https://twitter.com/johnjcrace/status/1445807589044867076?s=21
morons
You can't call them that.
Daz, daz, where are you to defend the indefensible again...?
Can't find it but yesterday the Express had Boris on the front cover, the picture almost literally depicting him as a massiah.
Today...
When the Express starts to voice concern (though not pinning out on Boris. Yet.) it's a sign things are definitely starting to deteriorate.
I suspect many more Tories are far more worried then they are publicly letting on at the moment.
They must know that Boris is doing nothing more than a grand King Canute reenactment on a national scale.
Boris has been incredibly lucky, incredibly but luck never lasts. Particularly when being depended upon.
Unfortunately, when the cards go against him, he takes is all down with him.
How people can still not grasp this… after the 2008 crash… after the pandemic… it’s crazy, isn’t it. They’ll still be drawing their pensions though…
Absolutely.
There's this Thatcher myth that used to exist on a Tory sticker - "free enterprise works".
Well yeah it does until it don't.
It’s a bizarre situation when the tories seem to be more bothered about supporting workers than labour are.
Nationalism combined with socialism. Potent stuff.
Someone should come up with catchy title for it.
They’re usually good at snappy slogans
Boris has been incredibly lucky, incredibly but luck never lasts.
Unfortunately I don't see any signs of it coming to an end any time soon . . . .
When the Express starts to voice concern
As I was saying years ago... the tabloids will swap back to a "Rip Off Britain" narrative just as soon as they can be sure that the public won't blame any of that on Brexit.
The big question for Johnson is... will they protect him in the same way that they protect the Brexit programme? They have so far... to blame Johnson is to blame Brexit... but as time moves on, will the government start to take the flak from the media (and the public) if they can perform the (arguably illogical) leap to the conclusion that the problem is Johnson without it being about Brexit? And even if they do... does Sunak manage to avoid the fallout of that turn in opinion?
Why pig farmers and fishermen aren't dumping containers worth of rotting unsold pork and fish at the gates of Downing Street is a mystery to me frankly. In France there would've been riots by now.
Owen Jones’ report at the Tory conference is excellent. Actually challenging them.
wow! im like lost for words. More people need to see this
just watched more than the suggested clip 6min 40seconds imagine actually being a tory and voting for some of these people thus basically saying you share these values. we are in a very sad state
crisis what crisis ? would be funny if his advice was rejoin the SM & CU.
Klunk
Free Member
crisis what crisis ? would be funny if his advice was rejoin the SM & CU.
Problem being that he will come up with ideas to sort the issues but it will include mainly stuff they can't or won't be seen doing. I think there is a whole load of people that can cure the countries ills but it's not what they want to hear. I am getting to the stage that I feel the UK is the drunk going round the pub p155ing everyone off and the quicker someone bursts its nose across its face the better.That will be when half the clowns that voted for him realise he is way out his depth.
just watched more than the suggested clip 6min 40seconds imagine actually being a tory and voting for some of these people thus basically saying you share these values. we are in a very sad state
That's the thing, I can't imagine being a tory. I can only guess that they do share those values and a lot of people have through my lifetime as the tories always get a good vote, in certain areas a vote they will never lose.
would be funny if his advice was rejoin the SM & CU
Johnson is now claiming that the negative effects of Brexit (the ones he claimed wouldn't occur previously) are in fact the rationale for Brexit... it might have turned out to be poison rather than medicine in the bottles he was selling... but now the country needs that poison... and we can't do anything to water it down. So drink up. Feel the pain. Embrace the pain. Enjoy the pain. Shout down anyone pointing out ways to mitigate against the pain. With that political message being the centre of Johnson's (current) messaging, what could Dave Lewis possibly usefully suggest? Making trade with nearby countries easier? Take back control of our borders. Make recruiting easier? That's embracing "cheap foreign labour"... (ignoring that fact that EU workers in the UK are on average paid more the UK workers, and would have to paid even more to get them to come over here to fill gaps now).
That Owen Jones thing. Interesting who he could talk with and who had an entourage positively discouraging him from being able to even get close. Worrying insight into how stupid the party think these people are?
Remember the recession, and the double-dip recession and then more recession . . . until what had been "recession" became "normal" ....
Not quote sure why everyone is spaffing their pants at the Owen Jones thing. It is OK, though.
The unsaid line from the 'New Tory' socialists is that they supposedly want strong unions and higher wages, but if it comes (one way or other) out of their own pocket, then they'll be sharpening the pitchforks.
The others are the usual dismissive tories - born with a silver spoon, they just cannot comprehend the life of a normal person. Gove only spoke because he loves the sound of his own voice more than anything. The rest of them either can't be seen to be endorsing higher wages because their funders will do them over if they do - and those non-exec directorships will be withdrawn. The others actively don't give a **** because if you are poor, you must be a bad person.
Arseholes.
I have noticed a lot of stories going with the line of what do the Tories have to do to suffer a loss in the polls? It genuinely seems like they can now do whatever they please, throw a few soundbites out to the headline writers that will keep the core supporters happy then just do whatever you want.
As long as the house prices stay strong and pensions are still being paid they can screw everyone else over it seems.
Who will bloody the drunken Boris' nose?
That'll be Scotland leaving the union.
As to Reluctant Jumper above, even the break up of the UK won't sink the tories. Pretty sure it'll just strengthen them.
Scotland leaving strengthens their hand considerably - they'd lose what 2 Tory MPs but a whole heap of other opposition and swing the balance even further in their favour.
...throw a few soundbites out to the headline writers that will keep the core supporters happy then just do whatever you want.
Keeping their core supporters isn't enough. What are the Tories doing to keep their non-core supporters happy? Which they obviously are if practically every opinion poll since January are to be believed.
And an arguably more important question, why are Labour and the LibDems barely keeping their own core supporters happy?
Why aren't non-Tory core voters queuing up to support Labour and/or the LibDems?
According to Yougov Boris Johnson is only the second most popular politician in the UK, the most popular politician is also a Tory, so it's hard to argue that Tory support is all down to the personal appeal of Johnson, as some seem to.
it’s hard to argue that Tory support is all down to the personal appeal of Johnson
Agreed. Pretending that you can be paid £50k a year for driving a forklift with no onward effect on the economy and pandering to racism and xenophobia is far more effective.
What happens in a global sense to an economy that overpays for manual work at the expense of FE and stuff like research?
Rampant inflation, that is what.
🤦♂️
Is driving a forklift in the list of "highly skilled, highly paid" jobs?
You could have a minimum wage of £50 per hour and everyone would then be happy that they are earning loads. They wouldn't be any better off because everything would cost more (services and products) and exports would drop to zero as all the stuff made in UK would cost way more than anywhere else in the world so are imports would increase massively but at least we would be paid well.
Let's all look forward to the day we will need to bring home our wages in a wheelbarrow. We can all earn £50k/yr if the £ is worth **** all.
Why does nobody question bankers etc taking their wages home in wheel barrows? It's not about the numbers it's the relationship between pay and how much profit is taken from your labour time aka 'class struggle'.
it's the relationship between how much you are paid and how much it costs to live.
Freemarket is seemingly great when it benefits the rich, but when it benefits the poor, it's a problem..
Let’s all look forward to the day we will need to bring home our wages in a wheelbarrow.
You are Milton Friedman and I claim my £5000000000000000000
Jesus, I see the self-serving snobs on here are still persisting with the fiction that paying people at the bottom more will make everyone else poorer.
Well diddums! Even if it were true I’d rather live in an economy where people can afford to keep a roof over their heads and feed their families without being at the mercy of rapacious landlords and ever decreasing state handouts.
It’s not true though. There is huge scope in our economy to rebalance the distribution of wealth. This unfounded fear of inflation is just the latest economic myth, like austerity and ‘repaying’ the debt, to justify business as usual. Have a word with yourselves FFS.
Jesus, I see the self-serving snobs on here are still persisting with the fiction that paying people at the bottom more will make everyone else poorer.
Not everyone. Just those with low paid jobs or no job who have little to no discretionary outgoings, and find all their costs rising. The richest won’t even notice. If we only raise wages in key sectors (using “market forces”, which is really about creating shortages through government policy), the people who will be hit are the vast majority of those on low and no pay who are, right now, seeing their costs rise far faster than their incomes. People on low incomes need to see their incomes rise. The government needs to take real action to make that happen. Not just big up the problems caused by getting rid of immigrants as if it was an unalloyed public good for all.
There is huge scope in our economy to rebalance the distribution of wealth.
Absolutely there is. Which is why the government is making direct taxes more progressive, increasing taxes on wealth such as inheritance tax, increasing taxes on capital transactions and decreasing taxes on the lowest paid. Sorry, what? It’s doing the opposite? And getting away with it by lying through it’s teeth about real wages for the lower paid? And even people on the left are cheerleading for their lie because they’ve linked it to Brexit? Well, that is surprising (well, no, it isn’t).
Jesus, I see the self-serving snobs on here are still persisting with the fiction that paying people at the bottom more will make everyone else poorer.
all those people need to do is look to countries like Germany, the low countries and Scandinavia
All have far less unequal societies and all are happier
the UK is the outlier with its impoverished poor and super wealthy rich
the UK is the outlier with its impoverished poor and super wealthy rich
Yes. It is. And it’s about to get worse.
And even people on the left are cheerleading for their lie because they’ve linked it to Brexit?
Oh FFS no one on the left is doing this. And no one is supporting Boris. What we are doing though is calling out this fantasy that going back to a pre-brexit position where immigration holds down wages so that the comfortable middle classes can be kept in the manner they’re accustomed is a load of bollocks. If you hadn’t noticed this was the main reason we ended up with the brexit clusterf***. And you want to go back to that?
Immigration has not held down real wages. Getting rid of lots of workers in key private sectors (any workers) will result in wage increases in those sectors. That is not the same thing. The knock on effect on the majority of the poor (the middle classes, cancelling their Netflix and gym memberships I couldn’t give a toss about) is being conveniently glossed over by people wanting to paint Brexit more generally, and a policy of excluding EU citizens more specifically, as benefitting the working poor. It is going to make their lives worse, while benefiting the richest. The problems created by the last ten years of Tory rule is about to get a whole lot worse.
Look at the countries TJ listed. How have real wages for the lower paid increased there since the 2008 crash? How have inequalities been reduced there? Did they exclude foreigners to make those gains? Or were those newcomers actually part of the economic growth, and it was other national and regional policy that was used to ensure all benefitted from that, unlike here?
Immigration has not held down real wages.
Immigration without adequate minimum wage and worker protections absolutely held down wages. I didn’t hear many remainers campaigning for those though pre-brexit though. Many were quite content with the status quo of cheap imported labour papering over the gaping structural cracks in our economy. Now those are fully exposed they need fixing properly. Obviously the tories aren’t going to do that, but if you think this is going to result in a movement to go back to what we had before then you’re mistaken.
So, getting rid of one of the positive things this country had going for it (EU workers here filling key gaps in the workforce not being taken up by “our own”) is a good thing because it “exposes” the poor protections our UK government put in place for all workers? What’s the next step? EU immigrants did not hold down wages. They were paid more than us for one thing, and that they helped the economy SHOULD have meant wage rises for all, but didn’t, because of the UK government’s policies. So, we’ve got rid of a key economic benefit, and many valuable people… what’s the next step? This government increasing protection for workers, making sure all workers receive a good wage, and putting in palace a progressive and redistributive taxation system? Good luck with that.
So, getting rid of one of the positive things this country had going for it (EU workers here filling key gaps in the workforce not being taken up by “our own”) is a good thing because it “exposes” the poor protections our UK government put in place for all workers?
No I'd quite happily have as many foreign workers here as the economy can sustain. I'm a proponent of completely open borders (or preferably no borders at all). But we are where we are, and the goal of free movement of people can't be achieved with business as usual race to the bottom economics. It needs a combination of a suitable minimum wage, protections against hire and fire practices and zero hours contracts, and universal income support so that everyone can live without the fear of poverty.
This government increasing protection for workers, making sure all workers receive a good wage, and putting in palace a progressive and redistributive taxation system? Good luck with that.
So because you've given up on a progressive and less unequal economy, you think going back to pre-brexit race to the bottom is the preferred solution?
Rampant inflation, that is what.
Nonesense.
Inflation is historically driven by supply side shocks/lack of productivity.
Plenty of people have earned lots of scandalous amounts money - in the past 10 years and inflation has remained on the low side of less than 2%.
You might have a temporary uptick but the general trend is low.
Got to get out of this low paid mindset.
So because you’ve given up on a progressive and less unequal economy
Given up? No.
I want us to address, and fix, the problems we have in the UK, rather than creating new ones for ourselves, and then cheering these new problems as if they were some kind of advancement.
This government are making the poorer poorer, and the rich richer, and people are supporting their damaging policies because they rid us of foreigners. Why are you one of those people?
Inflation is historically driven by supply side shocks/lack of productivity.
The is exactly what’s coming. High inflation is on the way. It’s not going to be caused by paying the lowest paid more. We can do that without it causing any major inflationary pressures. High inflation will come from a whole number of supply side shocks on the way, many made worse or caused by our self imposed trade handicaps, and from decreasing productivity due to a move away form modern just in time supply chains.
Got to get out of this low paid mindset.
Absolutely. And we need to put a stop to hidden low pay (often below minimum wage, never mind living wage levels) that more and more people are being pushed to accept, all the time, through perfectly legal ‘employment’ wheezes.
Why are you one of those people?
Where have I supported the govt or 'getting rid of foreigners'? I voted to stay in Europe to avoid this very scenario. The only thing I'm supporting is the idea of raising wages and improving conditions for working people. I don't for a second think the tories will deliver that, but going back to what we had pre-brexit is not an option, and neither is importing workers in specific sectors (and why the hell would they come back anyway?). The only solution now is structural reform to create a more equal economy, and I'll support whoever is proposing to deliver that.
It needs a combination of a suitable minimum wage, protections against hire and fire practices and zero hours contracts, and universal income support so that everyone can live without the fear of poverty.
This.
I don’t for a second think the tories will deliver that, but going back to what we had pre-brexit is not an option
Who decides the options? Just because you’ve given up, doesn’t mean we all have to. Not EU members, but having a closer relationship with all the countries around us (including other non-EU states) is an option that will bubble back up, bit by bit, over the decades ahead. Some revised form of easier moving of workers between countries will be part of that.
If we accept damaging self defeating policies as if they are positive, come the next election parties will double down on them. Nationalism and nativism become the political norm. That’s were we are heading. Gaslighted into a political space where low living standards are the fault of foreigners not the elected government.
come the next election parties will double down on them. Nationalism and nativism become the political norm.
Improving pay and conditions for UK resident workers is not nationalism and nativism. Now that the immigration red herring has been taken out of the equation, people will expect an improvement in real incomes and opportunities. That's why you see tories talking up workers interests through gritted teeth, because they understand the stakes. After blaming immigrants for the past 20 years they now have no excuse.
This is where labour are royally f***** it up. Instead of doubling down on improving pay and conditions and positioning themselves on territory the tories could never inhabit (like a £15 minimum wage and UBI), they're defending an economic system - pre-brexit neo-liberalism - that is already history. Their nonsense rhetoric about balanced books, paying back debt, and fiscal responsibility is feeding into this myth that raising wages will make everyone poorer, and the end result will be a reinforcement of the pervading opinion among voters that labour don't support working people.
