[Closed] Bloody sunday was unjustifiable and unjustified

Well, I know that his ineptitude led to more than 3,000 Canadians being killed at Dieppe, but I'm surprised to hear you describe Mountbatten as a murderer. Or were you referring to his support for dividing India along religious lines? (Hmm...wonder where he got that idea?)

Murdering PIRA scum was my intended 'prisoner', preferably SAS stlye.

Seems to me much of the report is contradictory, i.e. McGuiness with Gun, Nail bomber, (but thats Ok coz they didn't throw or shoot them), and the above. Either there was no threat or there was

The protestors were only under threat once the para’s starting shooting with the guns not because they possessed them at the start...same thing with the IRA weapons only a threat if used.

It was the softly softly approach were the Army played by the rules and PIRA murdered at will that caused the problems. [b]Never a better time in the troubles than when the SAS were allowed to dish out some of their medicine[/b]

What a worrying thing to say most people probably think the best time was the end and the peace process rather than when we ignored the rule of law and acted liked terrorists ourselves.

My own view is the paras lost the plot and shot people. This was the greatest recruitment drive the IRA could have ever had. The shooting of innocent people is wrong whether by terrorists [ loyalist and republican] or by the state – if anything it is worse when a state ignores the rule of law. Justice needs to be done. I though Dave was unequivocal in his apology on behalf of the state.
EDIT:

Murdering PIRA scum was my intended 'prisoner', preferably SAS stlye

see the problem with your attitude? You are no better than a terrorist and share their disregard for the rule of law

Everything straightforward in your world, eh Konabunny?

[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2007/dec/29/uk.past ]"Lord Mountbatten said he wished me to know that he and many of his friends have been deeply impressed by the positive Dublin reaction to the Heath initiative. They hope that this can be developed into a 'major advance towards the final solution'. Reunification is the only eventual solution. If there is anything he can do to help he will be most happy to cooperate."[/url]

The protestors were only under threat once the para’s starting shooting with the guns not because they possessed them at the start...same thing with the IRA weapons only a threat if used.

Good God. <Shakes head in disbelief at the sheer idocy of that, and subsequent statements, and goes off muttering to self in direction of bike and countryside>

A reasoned argument would have better but whatever floats your boat

Good God. <Shakes head in disbelief at the sheer idocy of that, and subsequent statements, and goes off muttering to self in direction of bike and countryside>

Cheerio then...given that your only other contribution was

Well said anokdale

I think we'll manage without you. 🙄

[i]same thing with the IRA weapons only a threat if used[/i]

<Shakes head in disbelief>

I was thinking that, too. My dad served as (a parachute-badged -7RHA, so not a Para [i]per se[/i]) Army Doctor in Co. Amargh during the seventies, and saw more than his share of ugliness. Now cuddly McGuinness may or may not have been carrying a weapon at any given time and place, but the blast injuries my dad treated were [i]definitely[/i] real. People seem to forget why the British Army was originally deployed in Northern Ireland. A lot of soldiers died for the sake of political tribalism.

All sides should ****ing well move on.

noteeth - Member
Everything straightforward in your world, eh Konabunny?

People seem to forget why the British Army was originally deployed in Northern Ireland.

Including, after a while, the paras themselves.

how does the fact that he contemplated a united Ireland contradict what I said?

This:

Or were you referring to his support for dividing India along religious lines? (Hmm...wonder where he got that idea?)

I think we'll manage without you.

I'm sure you will DD. Given some of the utter bollox spouted on this thread (with a few notable exceptions) I'll be glad to leave you to carry on with your 'worthwhile' contributions.

Cheerio then. We'll struggle on 🙂

People seem to forget why the British Army was originally deployed in Northern Ireland. A lot of soldiers died for the sake of political tribalism

The fact the IRA [and the protestant ones UVF etc] committed many many attrocities in no way justifies the army killing innocent people from that broad community. Too object to the behaviour of the para's is not to defend the behaviour of the IRA.
WOOODY you missed another chance to put forward a coherent argument

[i]Including, after a while, the paras themselves.[/i]

It became, as they say, a shooting war. Sadly.

Still, seeing that large crowd cheer the words of a [i]British[/i] Prime Minister makes me think we are - finally - in a better place. But "Justice" must mean Justice for all. Certain comfortably ensconced Irish politicians would do well to remember that.

[i]Was shooting them helpful in achieveing this goal?[/i]

I never said it was. The IRA could not have asked for a better recruitment drive.

Noteeth: that would be a very valid point [i]if[/i] his contemplation of a united Ireland had been public, and twenty five years earlier, and he hadn't in fact endorsed Jinnah and a religiously-divided India, and partition along religious lines wasn't the British colonial policy used in Ireland, Israel ("little loyal Jewish Ulster") and India alike. Also, I simply didn't say or suggest that Mountbatten was a religious bigot - just suggested British post-colonial policy in India bore resemblance to Ireland.

So yes, if history happened in reverse, and the events were different, and if I had said something I didn't, then you'd have a really good argument.

Certain comfortably ensconced Irish politicians would do well to remember that as well as those comfortably enscomced murdering paras
Finished it for you

or so you just want justice for one side?

So many people can only see what the other side did and think that justifies their sides attrocities/murders as somehow defensive and OK.

EDIT: Some nice humorous put downs on here Konabunny 😆

[i]just suggested British post-colonial policy in India bore resemblance to Ireland.[/i]

In short: British post-colonial policy in India was pretty much a disaster. It still doesn't justify bombing a yacht. Extrapolating from one side of the globe to the other for the sake of a simplistic, easily-digestible model of, like, "British oppression" is facile bollox, and you know it.

The actions of the Paras on that day did nothing to aid Peace - nor, as it happens, did the actions of any number of oh-so-macho, racketeering hard men (on either side of the Irish political divide). A plague on both their houses.

It still doesn't justify bombing a yacht. Extrapolating from one side of the globe to the other for the sake of a simplistic, easily-digestible model of, like, "British oppression" is facile bollox, and you know it.

Are there any other things that I didn't say that you'd like to correct me on? Perhaps you'd like to tell me that I'm wrong because it's [b]not [/b]all Thatch's fault? That Hitler [b]didn't [/b]have some good ideas? That 9/11 [b]wasn't [/b]an inside job?

Like most things there is not one simple answer nor one mistake that we can point to.

The politicians made serious mistakes that lead to the angry but peaceful march. the Paras were simply the wrong people to police the march. The lieutenant panicked and opened fire and the squaddies followed them.

I wish the soldiers had been honest with their answers but after all this time it must be very hard to recollect what was true and they will have heard that there were gunmen in the protest march and by now they may really think they fired in self defence.

I don't think any prosecutions of individual soldiers is warranted now nor is it likely to end in a conviction. Reconciliation along the lines of the south African truth and justice commission is needed along with an admission of wrongdoing from the army.

We have moved on and hopefully the inquiry has cleared the air.

WOOODY you missed another chance to put forward a coherent argument

[url=

[i]that's why I didn't say anything about.. etc etc[/i]

No, I didn't say you did. But Mountbatten's wish for a united Ireland should be given credence [however late], even if it doesn't suit the mythologised "struggle" of the IRA. If only senior diplomats and military leaders could be more like yourself: dispensing perfect, far-sighted strategy, even as you emerge from the womb!

Edit: [i]"compare partition in Ireland and India when they were both done along the same principle"[/i] - perhaps I should clarify why I think this is bollox. My Grandfather served (sometimes under Mountbatten) as a career soldier in India, Burma and Palestine - and saw at firsthand every example of British success/****-up you could ever wish for. He was [i]there[/i] - and I'm guessing he'd find the comparison reductive in the extreme. But I dunno: maybe the slaughter along the Radcliffe Line was [i]just like[/i] late 60s Belfast?

Yes indeed it is. "serious and widespread loss of fire discipline". This needs stressing I think. A loss of restraint and discipline may be understandable under pressure,

Indeed, 108 rounds fired and only 27 targets fell - ****ing shocking lack of marksmanship, would have expected better from the maroon machine.

The only winners in this one are the lawyers 8 million paid to two lawyers, good gig if you can get it.

Er, I think you'll find the overall legal fees were more like £100m.

My oprevious employers made c£13m for doing the witness statements, but that involved 30+ lawyers working on it for 6 years, so actually only £2m a year, which represents less than 0.5% per cent of the firm's annual turnover.

The individuals earning £4m each are QCs. £4m over this time period is a drop in the ocean with what they would be earning normally - the top earning silks make that much in a year or two, not the 12 that this Inquiry has run.

Are people *really* that surprised this cost £200m?

Murdering RUC scum was my intended 'prisoner', preferably IRA stlye

see the problem with your attitude? You are no better than a terrorist and share their disregard for the rule of law

Its ok the PIRA got their way into government and now run 'the north' - murdering does pay. Pity the Brits didnt do more of it ot indeed the Loyalists didnt organise a better murdering/bombing spree south of the border. Yeah maybe I am not better than the terroists but who cares? Nobody here in Ulster over the last 40 years seems to give a damn about the terrorist government.

perhaps a sign that they were panicking but you no more about killing things with guns that I do as I am a virgin in this area. Surely you can think of a better put down with that feeder line that just calling me Junky?

I made my viewpoint clear in agreeing with the post made by anokdale

sv
You hate the IRA for being murdering scum but think your side should have done more murdering and you don’t mind being the same as murdering scum ..honestly you are fine with this? You are clearly part of the problem and not the solution . I am not really sure which govt you are referring too as a terrorist one ours or Eire.

Thanks for pointing that out

I'm definitely off out now that I've changed my bars, so I'll keep on theme and leave you with the only thing that springs to mind...........

..................Póg mo thóin 😉

I will if it stops you talking out of it

Junkyard - I was using the fact that murdering in Ulster gets you voted into power in the government. Who cares you were running around with a sub-machine gun on Bloody Sunday forget all of your murdering background here have the Deputy First Minister post and oh your fellow terrorists can run (badly) Education, DARD, Junior Minister post etc.

Well thats the way it seems to me in my warped narrow mind 😉

"terrorist government"

In every civil war or similar conflict resolution can only happen once the two sides talk. One persons terrorist is anothers freedom fighter.

Nelson Mandela
Moshye Dayan
Jomo Kenyatta

Moshye Dayan is a particularly interesting one - imprisoned by the Brits before WW2 ( probably responsible for killing brit soldiers), fought on the allied side with distinction in WW2. Became a statesman in Israel

sv - you'd almost be funny if you weren't such a ****

i grew up there and must admit, never felt that there should have been more murdering going on. friends inside a few plastic bags chucked in a coffin kind of puts you off violence. Maybe you lived out in Holywood?

What TJ said

sv - you'd almost be funny if you weren't such a ****

Thanks.

i grew up there and must admit, never felt that there should have been more murdering going on. friends inside a few plastic bags chucked in a coffin kind of puts you off violence

It didnt put the terrorists off murdering innocent civilians did it?

Can I just add all the 'hype' of yesterday and today has got on my nerves, yeah they had family memebers (innocent) shot dead. So what - how many others families had this happen to them? The BS families got a stage and media coverage (and £200M), what are other victims getting? You know the ones who were going about their daily lives, not marching or demonstrating just living.

+1 for what TJ said.

Maybe you lived out in Holywood?

Sorry forgot to add the PIRA still operated in Ards/North Down, I was 50m away when a policewoman got her legs blown off in the last bombing of Bangor.

Nice MLAs we have eh 🙄

sv do you have any comment to make on murder by people other than the IRA? I think we have all got your view of them but you seem to ignore the acts of "your" side. SO back OT
Do you think the army were correct to kill innocent civilains who were not armed? What exactly was the difference between what they did and what the IRA did?

It didnt put the terrorists off murdering innocent civilians did it?

was unsuccesful in preventing the IRA

Loughgall incident would say different and its more of this I would have liked - used against all paramiltaries/armed groups.

I dont have a 'side' PIRA/UVF or whatever they were/are all murdering scum. The British army did get it wrong in certain areas but they were the difference (alongside the RUC) between the fragile normality and civil war.

sv - where do you stand on Moshe Dayan, Jomo Kenyatta and Nelson Mandela then? All were in very similar positions to McGuiness and Adams.

One persons terrorist is anothers freedom fighter. Only by talking do civil wars end.

Moshe Dayan is well worth looking into for a great example of this paradox

Drifting way OT but the Military has to react to what problems it encounters, they dont make the laws and i am not saying they are above the law but it is easy to be a victim of circumstances when you started on the right side as many a soldier has found out not just in the NI conflict.

As for preventing the IRA well ask the Fermanagh boys or the Armargh boys, they did not want to play once they had a slapping or two.

Having been at Ternhill when they tried to blow us up in our sleep just like the RM barrack in Deal i unsurprisingly dont have much sympathy for them and the cause but it wont go away just because a political inquest appears and gives a PC answer, lets be honest once BP shuts the leaking well off or England win their next game this will drop of the horizon and the only people that will really care are the ones that lost family on both sides.

Incidently and ironically an Irish Lad was awarded a decoration for his actions at Tern Hill he kept a load of us living that night to which i remain eternally gratefull and like i said in a previous post there are some good people over there, cheers Paddy.

This thread does more to demonstrate the Soloman like wisdom of Nelson Mandela than any biographer could ever do. It also emphasises the idiocy of our lot, who have commissioned the bloody thing and not foreseen the angst that will issue forth from it.

Having now read through the conclusions and where relevant detail of the report, it is very clear that Saville is saying that there were armed terrorists in the vicinity on Bloody Sunday, the Paras were keyed up as a result of fore knowledge and briefing. Due to on the ground operational issues, the paras split up, and in the resultant confusion opened fire believing they were being fired upon. Whether they were or not is another story, and isn't really covered in any great detail beyond reporting the presence of the sub machine gunner, nail bomber and an IRA sniper unit, which obviously were there entirely innocently and took no active part whatsoever...........

Clearly during the troubles there was wrong on all sides, and some right too. The important issue is to move on, so like Mandela did, lets have confessions all round, t1t for tat forgiveness and then lets move on as the way forward IMHO.

Only by talking do civil wars end

It wasnt a civil war or indeed a war - Geneva Convention followed?

One persons terrorist is anothers freedom fighter

To a normal person it is fairly obvious what the paramiltaries are.

sv - so Mandela then? Active in a "terrorist" organisation responsible for bombing of civilians including children.

Moshe Dayan - imprisoned by the British for his involvement in a "terrorist" organisation that had blown up and killed British soldiers. Released to fight on the allied side in WW2 which he did with distinction.

Of course it was a civil war - not following the Genenva convention does not stop it being a war.

Terrorist / freedom fighter depends on your viewpoint - look at the two examples I gave

TJ - so because you have examples from other situations around the globe it makes it ok?

I might be a little slow but how was it a civil war? I suppose it depends on your definition of a civil war.

the presence of the sub machine gunner, nail bomber and an IRA sniper unit, which obviously were there entirely innocently and took no active part whatsoever

Nice use of sarcasm there.

While agreeing it was (obviously) a highly stressful situation for the Paras the fact remains that the people they shot were *not* the sub machine gunner *or* the snipers, and the guy with a nail bomb in his pocket was hit purely by accident.

Clearly during the troubles there was wrong on all sides, and some right too. The important issue is to move on, so like Mandela did, lets have confessions all round, t1t for tat forgiveness and then lets move on as the way forward IMHO.

Also agree with that.

Moving on is fine but having gone through the Bosnian slaughter and spoke to both sides it will take hundreds of years as they referred to incidents that happened three hundred years ago when we asked them why they did what they did to each other ?

There are still retards shooting unarmed soldiers outside barracks in NI so dont hold your breath. Remember the funeral of the last RUC member to die ? i do i spent a fair amount of time working over there and i still picture his son in the hearse driving up the hill into the church, the lad was laughing, on the drive back down the hill he was was crying, reality hit, do you think he will forgive and forget easily, especially when the toe rag sorry suspect who shot his dad is still walking free. Time is a healer but not a quick one.