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I'm having a very similar discussion with one of the young turks at work on slack who has a 'substantial investment' in BC. Been plagiarising footflaps points (hope you don't mind). Think I've got him worried.
I don't understand this sort of take. If someone is happy to take a risk on something like this, go for it. Opportunities these days are few and far between.
As long as you know you might lose your cash. I didn't see the use of the fud.
The chap may have doubled his money now. Why spend time convincing him it was a bad idea?
Could this be a trigger for a burst bubble?
No it won't and it hasn't.
That was a couple of days ago and was a relatively small pool mining set-up.
Pay outs would've been fairly regular up until the wallet got robbed.
Our fiat system doesn't go pop when a bank is robbed does it?
So many people want this to fail. It's not even started yet and has a long way to go and evolve.
I take it you all think our current banking system is here to stay?
You're on a one-way negative trip and that's fine but you're using the hindsight of the tech bubble as the main thrust of your argument.
In the absence of any other rational explanation I'm calling it a speculative bubble. It's behaving just like all previous speculative bubbles as are those caught up in the bubble.
NB The main thrust of my argument is that Bitcoin has no intrinsic value (other than if you need to launder money / trade illegally).
If someone is happy to take a risk on something like this, go for it.
If people really thought they would lose it all, they wouldn't invest in it (other than a trivial amount which wouldn't warrant the effort). A lot of people are going to be genuinely pissed off when they get burnt.
NB The main thrust of my argument is that Bitcoin has no intrinsic value
Why does that matter? it's worth what somebody is willing to pay for it, same as anything else.
Why does that matter? it's worth what somebody is willing to pay for it, same as anything else.
Because when things with no (or very low) intrinsic value start rising rapidly in price for no reason, it's called a speculative bubble. These normally don't end well. If they get big enough they can crash stock markets, cause recessions etc.
There are plenty of examples to look at to see what happens. Tech crash 2000, Tulip mania etc, Silver bubble of 1980 (smaller scale). It's not the first nor the last time you'll see this sort of bubble.
Because when things with no (or very low) intrinsic value start rising rapidly in price for no reason, it's called a speculative bubble. These normally don't end well. If they get big enough they can crash stock markets, cause recessions etc.There are plenty of examples to look at to see what happens. Tech crash 2000, Tulip mania etc, Silver bubble of 1980 (smaller scale). It's not the first nor the last time you'll see this sort of bubble.
But then we get back to my earlier comment of gold and gemstones. Where is the intrinsic value in these? Their value is purely based on a social construct which has lasted millennia. Gold and gems are also bubbles, but ones which didn't burst. Who's to say that the perception of value won't be endowed upon a cryptocurrency in much the same way (especially set against the background of the modern worship of technology), perpetuating its value?
By owning these bitcoin thingy majigys just mean it’s nowadays unobtanium for the average saver.
Those that created it are surely just coining it in on giving a false impression that they’re worth more as the days go on.
Like a pyramid scheme.
Oh and can someone explain exactly how it has a detrimental impact on the planet.
I’m guessing you’ve guessed I’m not I.T. Smart and that I use an ipad 😆
Don’t even need a face mask or gun if you want to steal some.
It’s a bloody crime wave !
Same thing happened two hours ago 😉
@tdog - it’s detrimental to the environment because of the shear computing power being used to mine the Bitcoins, which uses electricity. Some of which does come from renewable sources, but the majority of which (I’m guessing), doesn’t.
Oh aye so it did Neal, I blame Brexit.
The chap may have doubled his money now. Why spend time convincing him it was a bad idea?
I'm not. I'm pointing out some of the issues that he may not have considered, as well as winding him up a bit as he's a cocky little sod 🙂
I take it you all think our current banking system is here to stay?
Being an armchair anarchist, I quite like the idea of a distributed financial system which bypasses the banks. Hence my question about whether warnings from bankers were genuine. Having read a bit about it though, I do think it is all a bit of an idealistic wet dream. Maybe it'll turn into something that genuinely threatens the status quo, but I doubt it. More likely it'll be absorbed by the banks and turned to their own advantage to make more money.
As long as you know you [s]might [/s]probably will lose your cash.
guy on the radio today has lost £40k because he was scammed by a website pretending to hedge bitcoin. He was so sure of the growth in bitcoin (his words), what he of course meant was "I'm so sure I'm going to make an easy buck" that he'd already found another on line dealer (again anonymous, as they all are) and "invested" more of his money.
A fool and his money...etc etc
Sure thing justinbeiber, that's what I had thought.
Sounds like it's getting outta control
The main thrust of my argument is that Bitcoin has no intrinsic value (other than if you need to launder money / trade illegally).
So what. The whole definition of "value" has challenged the greatest of minds. It doesnt matter. Value can exist without corresponding "widgets!
Also it may crash tomorrow and lots of people may lose money but if I invest £1000 and it becomes £1m then crashes to zero. I may appear to lose £1m but its not a gain until I take it. I have really lost £1000.
@tdog - it’s detrimental to the environment because of the shear computing power being used to mine the Bitcoins, which uses electricity. Some of which does come from renewable sources, but the majority of which (I’m guessing), doesn’t.
but have you actually stopped to consider the energy cost of other currency's or even the energy cost of the internet, which you are using?
A quick google shows that the internet uses [url= https://www.forbes.com/sites/christopherhelman/2016/06/28/how-much-electricity-does-it-take-to-run-the-internet/#6ad31af41fff ]70 Billion KWH[/url] a year!
[url= https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/12/bitcoins-insane-energy-consumption-explained/ ]This site[/url] claims 32TWH which i think is the same as 32 billion KWH.
So bitcoin, whilst indeed consumes a lot of energy, it is less than the internet, which has it mission critical uses, also host a lot of cat pictures and porn.
How much energy does it take to extract gold, refine it and transport it? Printing paper money is i doubt energy neutral and a lot of it gets destroyed or replaced every year.
It is easy to hear headline comments such as bitcoin uses as much energy as denmark each year, and assume that it is bad.
Interesting that it take 250kWh to process a transaction. That's about £25 at retail electricity prices - makes the banks look cheap. You could say it's not a real cost, because the person making the transaction doesn't pay it, it comes of the mines, but in that case it's a pyramid scheme. Although, 2140 is far enough away that something else will happen before the last bitcoin is mined.
Re: power usage, I read the headlines this last week and thought the numbers quoted seemed very high, but got distracted before I could try to work out the maths myself.
[url= https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/7inby4/bitcoin_consumes_more_energy_than_insert_country/ ]This guy[/url] has made an attempt and reckons it's <21TWh/annum, or about a third less than the papers were saying. Still a huge number and I'm not defending it, but it's a fair bit below Ireland.
Greybeard - Member
Interesting that it take 250kWh to process a transaction. That's about £25 at retail electricity prices
Seems high but assuming they are correct this is addressed by lightning, as transactions can take place off chain
guy on the radio today has lost £40k because he was scammed by a website pretending to hedge bitcoin. He was so sure of the growth in bitcoin (his words), what he of course meant was "I'm so sure I'm going to make an easy buck" that he'd already found another on line dealer (again anonymous, as they all are) and "invested" more of his money.
Many, many more scams in the fiat world.
The sad fact is if he left his money just in bitcoin he would be doing very well currently.
Many, many more scams in the fiat world.
Yes but are they SPECULATIVE TULIP BUBBLE PONZI SCAMS ?!
Anyone know what the crack is with I/Ocoin? I've been watching it on a long decline for a while, wondered if it's worth putting a few quid on.
Just about to pass $20K per Bitcoin mark, nearly 3x the value when this thread started! Possibly drop again straight after...
Can anyone recommend an easy way to convert bitcoin back to GBP? (0.2btc).
Tinribz- I’ve bought virtual coins via https://bittylicious.com. Although I haven’t converted anything back into pounds yet, the process in this website seems relatively straight forward. Let me know how you get on! My guess is you will get a better price tomorrow as spreads are usually large over the weekend.
Yes but are they SPECULATIVE TULIP BUBBLE PONZI SCAMS ?!
Really? Think any scam that has manipulated the public's money in recent memory.
Look bitcoin is expanding in the same way Facebook et all expanded. It just happens to have a price attached to it.
A Ponzi scheme by definition is set up to deliberately defraud its investors. So it fails that test.
Just about to pass $20K per Bitcoin mark, nearly 3x the value when this thread started! Possibly drop again straight after...
As the futures kick in there has been a bit of a shove.
Up and down for a while now but then as things settle down, onwards.
Big players getting involved now.
There is the question of whether they will short it to death after a pump. Who knows.
Can anyone recommend an easy way to convert bitcoin back to GBP?
My intended route is kraken to fidor bank account.
Can anyone recommend an easy way to convert bitcoin back to GBP? (0.2btc
Blockchain.info
rone - Member
Yes but are they SPECULATIVE TULIP BUBBLE PONZI SCAMS ?!
Really? Think any scam that has manipulated the public's money in recent memory.Look bitcoin is expanding in the same way Facebook et all expanded. It just happens to have a price attached to it.
A Ponzi scheme by definition is set up to deliberately defraud its investors. So it fails that test.
Um, I was joking dude.
Can anyone recommend an easy way to convert bitcoin back to GBP?
A few ideas in here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinUK/comments/6w71wa/do_any_uk_banks_authorise_payments_to_coinbase/
https://www.revolut.com/ gets mentioned a few times.
I found this a really good accessible explanation of what exactly "blockchains" are:
Um, I was joking dude.
I lost the plot on that one as so many calling it a Ponzi. Sense of humour has been by passed.
Bitcoin down over the last few days as bitcoin cash sucks the money in. I'm buying bitcoin on these dips.
I have a strange urge to do some mining because I’m a tech geek, I’ve harboured this urge since I first became aware of bitcoin about 4 yes ago. The eco argument seems to be largely negated if you can do something useful with the heat - anyone doing anything clever? E.g. my office building is unpleasantly cold before 10am, and I have no control of the thermostat, I could but a timer on a miner to warm my wee office form 4 or 5 am?
What stops me is a belief I have that crypto currency is the untraceable oil that makes the dark web run smoothly. So by getting involved in it, I am in some way helping druglords, paedophiles, people traffickers etc. Given its explosion recently I also suspect it helps many more mainstream people move assets untracably and avoid tax. Is my ethical worry misplaced (obviously me not mining them isn’t going to stop them existing, but profiting because someone wants to buy them for a dodgy transaction seems wrong).
Are there any crypto currencies which are positioned to avoid this - e.g. by being more traceable?
I would imagine that regular folding cash powers illegal activity far more than crypto "currencies" do.
If you are going to mine, invent your own currency, mine it until you have loads of coins, then release it into the wild. Pump and dump baby.
Edit: it's not untraceable, it's pseudonymous. The record of transactions is public after all.
I have a strange urge to do some mining because I’m a tech geek, I’ve harboured this urge since I first became aware of bitcoin about 4 yes ago. The eco argument seems to be largely negated if you can do something useful with the heat - anyone doing anything clever?
1060s are economical.
I'm waiting for nice hash to sort itself out currently as that was a simple bit of software.
I rest my case.
Some other good tricks going on this week. Pump up a forked currency:
Then suddenly it starts trading on Coinbase not 24 hours later:
https://blog.coinbase.com/buy-sell-send-and-receive-bitcoin-cash-on-coinbase-65f1b2c7214b?gi=aaabec01f05e
Or you can give people "tokens" in exchange for their Ethererium:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/42337546
"Iced tea company rebrands as “Long Blockchain” and stock price triples"
Nope, definitely not a bubble. No way.
Anyone buying the dip then?
I see Ripple has weathered the storm. 8)
Stop loss kicked in on BTC.
Still holding ETH, bought some more Ripple.
rone - Member
Um, I was joking dude.Bitcoin down over the last few days as bitcoin cash sucks the money in. I'm buying bitcoin on these dips.
Oh, you might be down a bit now? Pump more in or is this the start of the bubble bursting? Time to throw the dice?!
I’m holding a combination of eth, bitcoin and litecoin. Seen my wallet drop £300 this week, but think I’m going to hold onto it and see what happens in the new year. I think the time for short term huge gains is gone, it’s now going to be a long term thing. I just wish I’d bought some bitcoin when I first heard about it years ago!
Well it’ll move dramatically in a few hours so if you time trades right you could make a lot. Or lose a lot....
Very true, but I have a feeling I'll get it wrong and buy at a peak and sell in a dip 😀
Oh, you might be down a bit now? Pump more in or is this the start of the bubble bursting? Time to throw the dice?!
I built my holding up way before the dip so still comfortable.
Don't forget 10,000 was predicted by Xmas and it's still way above that currently. In fact it only corrected to early December levels.
I've been buying in small chunks of BTC.
In for longer term.
I suppose yesterday's dip was a just a reaction to the huge climb recently.
Either way it's a hold for me.
Got a pair of 1080ti gfx for my work machines as part of my normal end of year purchasing.
Interested to see what this expensive mo-fo will do with nice hash in my downtime.
Biggest problem is the ease of getting out of positions quickly - I know someone who lost a chunk trying to sell and struggling to get out of his position. Admittedly the loss was on a theoretical profit but there we go.
BTC derivatives are an different way of betting on the value, it'll be interesting to see how they take off. Middle of last week someone bought a load of BTC options (approx $1M), expiring in Dec 2018 that it'll be trading above $50K.
Biggest problem is the ease of getting out of positions quickly - I know someone who lost a chunk trying to sell and struggling to get out of his position. Admittedly the loss was on a theoretical profit but there we go.
Definitely. Lost some myself like this.
That's way long term is better.
Isnt Google, Apple etc a better long term option?
Isn't there a risk that Bitcoin might just disapperar to nothing?
Isnt Google, Apple etc a better long term option?
Pick the right altcoins now and you're investing in the apple/Google/amazon of 20 years ago.
Pick the right altcoins now and you're investing in the apple/Google/amazon of 20 years ago.
As a pure gamble, maybe. Otherwise, not sure there's anything in that comparison.
Afternoon all,
I'm glad this topic started some debate, its been interesting reading through all the replies.
For people who think its a bubble and a ponzi scheme, I fully understand why you would think that. However while this bubble is still well and truly inflated, I don't see a reason not to get involved and try to profit from it.
Yes there is always a risk, but surely that's the same with most modern day investments. Especially ones that have the ability to offer a decent reward.
Timing is key to a lot of these things, as a few people have mentioned. I find Poloniex a great platform to exchange and invest on. Initially buying currency through Coinbase and transferring it into Poloniex. This enables me to do instant trades between most coins, and getting out of a position is a matter of seconds.
Ripple is a really decent investment at the moment, and I am buying this with funds I hold in Bitcoin.
I am currently buying a selling daily, but keeping a bumper of Ripple which I will never sell just encase a sudden upwards streak comes in!
Today for example I got Ripple at 0.000063 BTC and then I have just sold at 0.0000778 I only purchase 5000 today which cost around 0.312 BTC, but when selling for 0.389 BTC thats a daily profit of 0.077 BTC which equates (at current rate) to $1100 ish after fee's. Today was a good day, but if you watch the charts and it gets to a 24 hour low, in my opinion that's a great time to buy. Then just check back every couple of hours and see what is happening.
At first I was hesitating on selling, just encase it went up more. But after a few times where a toilet break cost a couple of $100, that hesitation stopped.
Its also worth mentioning new starter coins or tokens.
There are loads out at the moment, Electroneum looks particularly interesting, and I have purchased a few of these just encase things go well.
But there was a new token called NAGA (NGC) that was crowdfunded a few weeks back, the crowdfund buy price was $1 per token.
It was finally listed on the HitBTC exchange a few days back, and within 4 hours it hit a high of $4.36. Its now back down to $1.65. I got out at $3.56 each, but I only purchased about $100 worth to start with.
Just to clear this up, I have lost too. But forgetting the mining investment, I initially put $500 worth of Bitcoin into my Poloniex Trading account, and I haven't invested a single penny more since then. I was happy to risk $500, and if I lost it all tonight I would walk away annoyed, but not harmed.
Onto the mining -
I decided to try and do this properly, as it was going to cost a certain amount to set the room up to be suitable for the mining machines.
This initial set-up cost was going to be the same for 1 machine or 20 machines.
The main issue I have had is cooling, the Antminers pump out some serious heat. And the hash rate is seriously effected if it gets too high.
I did start of with the air-conditioning on 24/7, however the electric rates are fair to high, meaning the profitability was taking a hit.
In the end, I decided to cut some 400x400mm holes in the warehouse walls, and install some 14inch fans, rated at 4850m3/h, bringing the fresh and cold air in from outside.
The hot air from the backside of miners gets piped into 100mm ducting, goes up and through the ceiling and into the back of the 2 upstairs offices. Since putting in this system a few weeks back, not a single radiator has been put on in the offices.
The miners now run at around the optimal temperature, and we actually make use of heat they produce.
Onto the equipment -
I now have 16 Antminer D3 units, which are personally mine.
The mining rates vary massively, but the average capability per day, per miner is around 0.01 Dash per miner. Which is around $14 per day for each miner. With an electricity of around $2.
My average cost per miner was $860, meaning the ROI is around 75 days (including a few days for downtime).
Anything mined from this goes straight into a Nano S Ledger Physical Wallet, and does not get touched. My intention is for this to stay untouched until the miners are all paid off. Then I will consider moving any profit over into the Poloniex trading interface.
As for GPU mining, I have stopped this completely.
I purchased 2 x RX Vega 56 and 2 x Vega 64 GPU's around a month back, and I just don't see it as a profitable way forward.
I am considering adding a GPU into each office PC, and running Nice Hash in the background while the PC's are on. But as yet, they are sat on a shelf waiting for a plan!
That's about it!
As always if anybody wants any advice, please send me an email.
I've read this all but not posted until now.
a few weeks ago I brought into eather key chain via etorro i went into it with 3 others and I fully expect to lose the lot and right it off as a gambling folly. we came out roughly after costs with a 35% profit.
even with lots of research it's still a gamble and nothing more.
I do think Keychain is a viable option
So as I understand it ,the current block reward on Bitcoin is 12.5 BTC (equiv to ~£150k at times!)
So is it [i]ever[/i] worth mining solo and getting nothing, but hoping for that big payout one day? Or are the odds just so stacked against individual miners that the only real way is to join a pool?
GrahamS -
Good question, but in my opinion the answer is no, its never worth trying to solo mine anything at the moment.
I have done some work on this, so I will try my best to show the explanation below. This is done on a monthly basis -
The current total Hash rate for mining bitcoin is - 15 million TH/s
Source - [url= https://blockchain.info/charts/hash-rate ]Click[/url]
A new block comes out every 10 minutes -
(6 x 25 x 365) / 12 = 4380 new blocks per month.
To have a chance in solo mining 1 block, you would need at least -
15million / 4380 = 3500 TH/s of mining power
The antminer s9 is largely regarded as the best SHA-265 mining machine, which on a good day will give you 14 TH/s.
Meaning you will need 3500/14 = 250 Machines at least to have a chance of mining 1 block solo.
Current cost of a S9, if you can get it is around £2000.
So your outlay would be around £500,000 in just mining hardware.
The last block rewards was 12.5 BTC
See the block info here - [url= https://blockchain.info/blocks ]Click[/url]
Obviously 12.5 BTC is currently around £12000, meaning it would only take 3.3 blocks to be breaking even. But this isn't guarantied in anyway!
Mining in pools means you are sure of a return.
1 S9 Miner is currently bringing in around £25 a day in pool rewards.
If you had 250 miners, that's £6250 a day almost guarantied. Meaning a ROI on 250 miners would be just 80 days (No electricity counted for here).
That's why I would choose pool mining!
Thanks handyman, that’s interesting.
What about the lower profile, lower value Blockchain currencies? Presumably many work on the same principle? So is it worth solo mining some of them to earn some speculative holdings while the block rewards are high, the puzzles easier and there are less competing miners?
Or does the hardware/power maths mean it’s ultimately cheaper just to buy with cash?
Upgraded our current editing systems to 1080ti(£700 Inc Vat) cards. When not being used as editing machines they yield 6-7 quid a day before leccy on Nice hash.
After tweaking power we're looking at 200w.
Set up my dedicated 3 card 1080ti rig. Tweaked the power so it's not burning too many watts unnecessarily. Got it to 500w in total and turning 20 quid a day before electricity.
No heating on in that room at all.