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you must reverse into car parking spots
I worked at a place that forbade that as they didn't want fumes going onto the hedges between rows of spaces!
Leaving my locks attached to the bike stand, as does everybody else who rides in every day. It’s common practice. Even at train stations. They have been removed without my knowledge, permission or attention. I’m pretty sure they’ve not been nicked. One is a Kryptonite, the other a big thick motorbike security chain with a huge padlock. To nick them, I would hope they’d have to be attacked with an angle grinder. They couldn’t have given me notice as the whole building was shut down and then slowly reopened at a rate of 10 people per week, from a list of 800, over a five week period.
You think I’m NOT on solid ground?
I suspected I’d been wronged and I had recourse. Most of you kind people have convinced me.
Not SSE. A different one. Close to the M60. Nowhere near M6. No dress code to speak of. Nobody wears a tie.
That means that the employer can’t be held responsible if someone else breaks in and steals the employees property (assuming the weren’t negligent). Every supermarket car park has a sign like that, it doesn’t mean the manager can just steal your car!
Pretty much what I was going to say, only I was going with "car park attendant" and "stereo."
What a lot of posters seem to be missing is, this isn't just any old public space, it's his place of employment. If he'd left the lock in ASDA car park for 12 months (and contrary to popular opinion I'd bet "that bloody lock is still there and no-one ever uses it" becomes very obvious very quickly) then it's absolutely fair game for them to remove it. Doing it in a staff car park whilst the office is closed is rampant bellendery of the highest order and I would absolutely be seeking recompense.
you must reverse into car parking spots malarkey
I came across this doing a site visit for a customer once. I think it was the AA but might be misremembering. Got the whole "you need to reverse into parking bays" schtick, I said oh right, I had no idea. The jobsworth then made me go and turn it round right there and then before he'd let me in the building, like it made any difference to anything beyond looks.
Apologies Monksie...
when i said are you sure they haven't been nicked, i was wondering what reaction your boss would have when you implied that it may have been nicked and therefore perhaps a matter for the cops...
Monksie - but what recourse do you expect? What legal grounds?
I would be writing / emailing to them with a complaint of course and hoping for redress but I simply cannot see what legal redress you have thus my advice is simply not to waste too much time and energy over it as you have no legal basis that I can see for redress.
Greater Anglia removed my lock from the station rack.
In regard to the FM department not allowing CCTV to be viewed, look them up on the ICO register and if they don't have a listing shop them.
If they have CCTV being monitored by a guard on site check if the guards are CCTV licensed by the SIA, if not shop them.
There are rules they need to abide by for safeguarding purposes.
but what recourse do you expect? What legal grounds?
They have taken away his property
What recourse? Seriously? It’s not obvious to you? Giving me my ‘intact’ locks back, providing me with similar replacements or reimbursing me if I have to go and purchase replacements.
They’ve removed my belongings without permission or notice where I had a legitimate reason for leaving them there which is in a fashion of common practice! Is this a surprise to you, TJ?
On what grounds? As fr as they are concerned its abandoned on their property and thus they have the right to remove it. You have no right to leave the locks there.
Make the complaint, ask for redress and leave it at that. Don't waste time and energy on a fight you will not win is my advice.
Please...leave me alone TJ. I have enough to contend with 😂
I agree your employer should return or replace your locks. I expect the contents of my locker to be there when I'm allowed back in work, this is the same.
On a lighter note, are you sure that your workplace hasn't been visited by a smooth talking American lawyer?
Because … ??? Of course they could be, in theory, if people left them in their thousands, but in real life ?
@DrJ - I work at a university. We have turnover of staff and students who leave them at the end of the academic year. Your question has made me think that we should just leave them in perpituity as a fitting tribute to their time with us, along with the rusty BSO that they left behind too....
I know someone who changed jobs from Leeds to London and just left their lock in Leeds and bought a new one. Similar with another chap who just left a bike locked up at Manchester Picadilly when it got a bit too rusty and just bought a new one. I suggested they donate the bike and they couldn't be arsed. These are just a few examples of why you have to do clearouts of bike storage from time to time
tjagain
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On what grounds? As fr as they are concerned its abandoned on their property and thus they have the right to remove it. You have no right to leave the locks there.
TJ, I'm sorry, but this is just cobblers.
I would have thought a quick legal analysis would go like this: he has a non-exclusive licence to use the cycle storage facilities at his employer's premises for cycle storage and reasonable purposes adjunct to that function.
Storage of ancillaries is likely to be part of that function and I would say absent some specific provision to the contrary (or specific warning against doing so), leaving a lock there without an express prohibition would be a reasonable use of the cycle storage facilities.
They have removed his property without his consent, so at best they are bailees of his property and therefore have an obligation to safeguard it, and if they have damaged or destroyed it, they are liable to him for conversion.
You appear to me missing the fundamental point that there was no prohibition against storage of items in place. Therefore OP is entitled to make reasonable use of his employer's private property in accordance with the terms on which it is granted to him.
Whereas I would see it as the employers defense would be " this lock was abandoned on our property so we removed it"
I think you are all missing that he has no right to leave the lock there on the employers property. Its as simple as that. Cycle parking does not IMO come with the expectation you can leave locks on the premises. It would never occur to me to do so.
We will find out ( hopefully) if the OP lets us know but its not a hill I would chose to die on given how shonky the grounds for a claim would be.
I think you are all missing that he has no right to leave the lock there on the employers property. Its as simple as that. Cycle parking does not IMO come with the expectation you can leave locks on the premises. It would never occur to me to do so.
Cycle parking does, by its very nature, come with the expectation you can leave the lock on the premises - otherwise how would the bikes be locked? It is a necessary part of the function of cycle storage and absent some specific prohibition - of which there does not appear to be any - would in my view constitute an entirely natural use of the facility.
Many people at work leave towels, shower gel etc in otherwise 'public' facilities.
I think you will find that many people have exactly the opposite experience to yours, and difference point of view. Furthermore, if a behaviour is repeated and tolerated, it is possible the landowner could have waived their right to do so.
There was no evidence that the lock was abandoned - indeed, until lockdown it appears there is ample evidence it was in use.
I have used employer provided cycle racks/storage and without question have always (along with many others) left my locks on site if I was using it for extended periods. I think if it was a public cycle storage facility that's one thing - but I would have expected at the very least a company wide notice that these were going to be removed if unclaimed.
@tjagain - And that's *regardless* of the legality of the company / security team deciding to clear them out. Even if there's no leg to stand on from a legal point of view; it's not a great way for a company to treat it's staff.
I would have thought a quick legal analysis would go like this...
Are you a lawyer?
Here's how I think a lawyer would respond, "Don't waste your time and money pursuing it because you have zero chance of succeeding. In the future, don't leave personal belongings in shared spaces."
Are you a lawyer?
As it happens, yes.
Even if there’s no leg to stand on from a legal point of view; it’s not a great way for a company to treat it’s staff.
I quite agree - its shitty
I just do not see it as being worth wasting all this time and energy on. Make a complaint and if you want I would happily help write it - I have lots of experience of dealing with management as an employee rep but given no legal basis for redress then I simply think that wasting a lot of time and energy on this would do nothing but lead to frustration and anger and get you nowhere
Are you a lawyer?
As it happens, yes.
So would you advise a client to spend money on legal fees to pursue this in court if the company says, "Go * yourself, and while you're at it, go * that horse your rode in on too?"
So what about a mug in the staff kitchen? Left alone or fair game for destruction?
What sort of lawyer Jakester?
Cycle parking does, by its very nature, come with the expectation you can leave the lock on the premises – otherwise how would the bikes be locked?
When accompanied by a bike.
I could leave a car on my employer's premises but I think they might be a little irked if I left 6lt of motor oil in a puddle in the car park on the proviso that it was perfectly acceptable to do so in a car therefore it should also be acceptable without it too.
no legal basis for redress
TJ, I appreciate you are a contrarian but this is simply not correct, as explained above.
Whether it is worth spending the effort on is another matter.
hols2
So would you advise a client to spend money on legal fees to pursue this in court if the company says, “Go * yourself, and while you’re at it, go * that horse your rode in on too?”
Probably not. But similarly I wouldn't say to simply give up hope of gettign any money back either.
Say the locks cost £100 or so, worth a quick Moneyclaimonline for the fee of £25 (that you'll get back if you win). If they did say that, then you can be pretty sure a judge wouldn't like it.
What sort of lawyer Jakester?
Litigator in E&W.
convert
When accompanied by a bike.I could leave a car on my employer’s premises but I think they might be a little irked if I left 6lt of motor oil in a puddle in the car park on the proviso that it was perfectly acceptable to do so in a car therefore it should also be acceptable without it too.
I get that people like to argue reductio ad absurdum here, but your point is a bad one - the car couldn't be driven without the oil, but the bike could be without the lock. The lock is only required when securing the bike in accordance with the provided facility - the oil is necessary for the functioning of the car and its discharge on the parking space wouldn't be a desired outcome.
You know things are serious when somebody uses the word "adjunct."
I discharged in a parking spot once. Happy days.
Monksie has effectively abandoned his possessions in a parking area and I don't believe he has a leg to stand on.
If they did say that, then you can be pretty sure a judge wouldn’t like it.
I imagine they would say it using fancy legal words, but translating to "go **** yourself" in English. For example, "We accept no responsibility for property left in public areas." All the company has to do is refuse any responsibility and admit nothing and the onus is on you to prove your case. No lawyer is going to advise a client to spend money chasing it up.
I get that people like to argue reductio ad absurdum here, but your point is a bad one – the car couldn’t be driven without the oil, but the bike could be without the lock. The lock is only required when securing the bike in accordance with the provided facility – the oil is necessary for the functioning of the car.
Only elected to pick me up on part 2 (replace oil with removable back seats if it makes you feel better) but elected not to comment on part 1 - assuming I then have a point no?
It's all a lot of whataboutery as I think everyone is agreed the OP has a point - it's just his right to redress and how much its worth kicking off that's at issue.
Locks are an odd one though - because they self secure (badly in this case it turns out), the 'right' or entitlement to leave where you like seems to be enhanced. Agreed it has now become common practice but it still seems a bit odd however convenient. I have genuinely always thought I was doing it at my own risk when I've done it and it could be removed if someone was so motivated.
I work as part of a facilities team on a large site.
We do a bike clear out on an annual basis, however, we give fair warning (6 weeks) and any bike removed are kept for a further 6 weeks (in case the owner comes looking)
In terms of locks, we send several site wide emails, and all (old and rusty locks) are labelled with a letter of intention.
To be fair, if someone suggested that I remove there lock accidentally, I would generally go-ahead and replace it as a gesture of good will anyhow, as £30-£60 for a new lock in terms of our budget is not a lot of money for us to absorb.
I think your facilities team needs a lesson in customer service and good will!!!!
Absolutely agree that removing the lock at this time, and with no notice, is very wrong. I think you're right to take it up with facilities and management, however be prepared it may not go anywhere. If it was a management decision to remove locks I suspect it'll be 'suck it up'
Can't see this ending up being a legal matter - it's likely to be discussed between OP and his boss, and given there are probably a decent number of pissed off employees, you would hope that they will respond fairly. For example, I've got a £200 pair of headphones on my desk, had I come back after lockdown to find them disposed of I'd be kicking off.
I hate injustice. It’s part of my make up. The locks combined are going to cost around £120. I’m not giving up. It’s the principle.
Seriously OP, pick your battles.
It's crap, you understandably feel aggrieved, but for the sake of a lock or 3 its not worth the damage to your blood pressure.
If you must, send an e-mail to the facilities team, maybe copying in someone important, politely asking where your locks are and how you are to retrieve them. And leave it at that.
I know you see it as injustice, I get that, but some battles are not worth the hassle.
FM at my wife's place will happily sit behind a glass door waiting for 8:00am while people stand outside in the pissing rain.
FM at my wife’s place will happily sit behind a glass door waiting for 8:00am while people stand outside in the pissing rain.
In honesty, I don't work in FM but I'd also be going to lengths to make sure I looked as warm, dry and comfy as possible through that door then greet everyone with a chirpy hello, how are you, horrid weather isn't it as I let them in.
OP, it's rubbish but the only thing I can see coming out this is grief and blood pressure meds. Also given
Consultation and Fire And Hire is being waved around like a Bhudist prayer flag.
From the fence thread, I'd perhaps be doing just about everything I could to keep my head below the parapet at this point.
FM at my wife’s place will happily sit behind a glass door waiting for 8:00am while people stand outside in the pissing rain.
there's a fair chance that's because of insurance purposes i think? Happy to be corrected though.
Thanks to everybody for the comments. My blood pressure, I suspect, is up at the moment and I will only feel worse if I don’t do my best to get my locks or there replacement.
I swallowed my tongue when they decided that my locker should be their locker and moved my stuff (full change of clothes, shoes, wash kit, towel and kindle) out and put their stuff in. I couldn’t say what thief stuff was as they changed the combination. Not only that, they pissed about trying to remember which was my new locker that the cleaners went into the shower room and I had to stand outside for 30 minutes in my bike gear until they had finished!
Ps. Thanks for the free legal advice Jakester.
Ps. Thanks for the free legal advice Jakester.
LOL, who said it was free? I'll send you my bill shortly*... ;-P
Good luck!
*this is quite clearly a joke for those on this forum with a sense of humour bypass..
Monksie has effectively abandoned his possessions
No, 'abandon' implies he was going to leave them and not come back for them. He's left the lock there with the intention of returning. What evidence does his employer have, given the furlough situation, that he has no intention of coming back on site?
Monksie – but what recourse do you expect? What legal grounds?
If they've merely removed his personal property that wasn't locked to anything then it's theft, no?
If they have wilfully destroyed his property without prior warning in order to remove it then that's criminal damage. It's the same reason why you can't bolt-crop car wheel clamps.
You appear to me missing the fundamental point that there was no prohibition against storage of items in place. Therefore OP is entitled to make reasonable use of his employer’s private property in accordance with the terms on which it is granted to him.
Quite. By this argument, they could crop the lock during the afternoon and take his bike.
Whereas I would see it as the employers defense would be ” this lock was abandoned on our property so we removed it”
It was not abandoned, if I've read this correctly it was irretrievable due to the site being locked down.
I think you are all missing that he has no right to leave the lock there on the employers property. Its as simple as that.
So if he went for lunch and someone sodded off with the 'abandoned' rucksack under his desk that'd be fine?
“We accept no responsibility for property left in public areas.”
It's not a public area, it's a workplace, is it not?
Know what I'd do?
I'd claim back a replacement on expenses. If I were providing my own tools to do a job and they broke whilst at work I'd expect work to replace them (this has actually happened to me). You were supplying your own lock for your commute and it's disappeared, it's only right that they should be replaced. It's a loss incurred directly as a result of you working there.
Whereas I would see it as the employers defense would be ” this lock was abandoned on our property so we removed it”
Had he been sacked? Voluntarily left the company? Died? No, to all of those questions, so the property had not been abandoned, any more than any other personal property left on desks, in cupboards, or drawers or lockers, because the owners were temporarily unable to access the premises due to a pandemic.
If the cycle racks were in a public place, then leaving locks unattended is likely to result in them being removed, as signs on public railings point out, which is perfectly fine.
But on private property where people leave personal possessions unattended at weekends and when on holiday, there is a clear expectation that if the company locks everyone out due to a global pandemic, their property should remain in place untouched, as it hasn’t been abandoned!
...The locks combined are going to cost around £120...
Hmmm, I think that's the real issue innit?
You've gone and left 120 quid's worth of stuff lying about outside for four months (on a business park?) and, perhaps not all that surprisingly, it's gone missing...
You knew full well it wasn't a great idea, had it been a cheaper lock you'd maybe not be getting so animated? But as it is you're going to go both barrels after the Estates gibbons because you left some expensive kit lying about to be taken/moved.
I'll be honest, If I used a hundred+ quids worth of lock(s) at work (probably more than my commuter bike is worth TBF) I'd have taken them home every night, or at least on a Friday.
This company is so risk adverse that you get hauled in by your manager if you’re spotted not using the handle rail on the very shallow, not many stairs on to the mezzanine.
SSE?
OT, but I have nothing positive to say about SSE.
They disciplined members of their staff for putting out a small fire with a fire extinguisher due to not having the bit of paper that says that can work a fire extinguisher.