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perchypanther - Member
We should burn his books.
Naturalist-ist.
Yet again perchy wins the Internet for today! Chapeau!
It really does seem that some people are almost the professionally offended, looking for things they have little real understanding of then getting bent out of shape on behalf of others who couldn't give a shit.
I point those who still don't appear to grasp the basic facts about Pidgin back to the Wiki link.
And read it.
As several people have pointed out, it's a spoken language not intended to be written, it's to expedite communication between people who don't share a common language but need to be able to trade goods or whatever.
How difficult a concept is this to understand?
Pigin. Seems totally analogous with Ulster Scotts to me.
Seems totally analogous with Ulster Scotts to me.
Yeah that's kinda the point I was making. The cartoon ginger in the video reckons Pidgin is just "crappy" English and we should be encouraging West Africans to "better themselves" instead of pandering to it.
Ulster Scots (or Insular Scots, Northern Scots, Central Scots, Southern Scots) is likewise regarded by some as [i]"crappy English"[/i].
So we got Received Pronunciation as an attempt to encourage the northerners to better themselves.
Scots is likewise regarded by some as "crappy English".
If it's not a separate language altogether then it's almost certainly an enhanced or augmented form of English.
We hae hunners mair gallus words tae use.
There aren't many (or any) languages I'm aware that I can already read without ever being taught.
That's something about being a native (I assume) English speaker, there are no other languages sufficiently closely related to be mutually comprehensible (I think Flemish is closest and that's far from comprehensible, might as well be Geordie.) If you were Spanish or Swedish or whatever this would not be the case.
Maybe that's why it seems a bit weird? Funny also. Whatever, it's just communication.
As a kid I loved all the Gerald Durrell books and really enjoyed all the pidgin used when he was collecting animals in Africa.The younger me never spotted that Durrell may have been a colonialist,racist and sexist.Should I go back and re read them,then I can feel suitably guilty for enjoying the stories?
Please don't bother. Allow me to be outraged on your behalf. It's the way of the world, and STW these days.
Wasn't offended (rarely offended, it's nothing against me personally so why should I be?), just uncomfortable as in questioning if it's right. The answer is, it is, and I accept it's not racism (I only questioned if it was anyway).
The question of whether the Beeb should be spending money on it and that Pidgin isn't something you'd normally read so where's the actual audience, is another matter. And what about all other dialects?
Scots is likewise regarded by some as "crappy English".
[i]I've been so sad
Since you said my accent was bad
He's worn a frown
This Caledonia clown
I'm just going to have to learn to hesitate
To make sure my words
On your Saxen ears don't grate
But I wouldn't know a single word to say
If I flattened all the vowels
And threw the 'are' away[/i]
The question of whether the Beeb should be spending money on it..
Blimmin' subsidies...
We dey hearam for morning,
For afternoon sef we dey hearam,
We dey hearam for night.
Dem dey halaram,
We no dey rest.Subsidy!
Subsidy!!
Subsidy!!!
Dis subsidy sef.Dem say na awuf money
Wey we dey chop,
Dem say na government money.Awuf money we no see,
Government we no see,
Na so so suffer we dey.Kidnappers dey kidnap us,
Thieves dey thief our property,
Militants dey murder us,
Better things we no dey see.Upon dat,
Dem still dey hala subsidy,
Dis subsidy sef.
- "Dis Subsidy Sef" by Chidi Anthony Opara
And what about all other dialects?
Like Creole?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8475381.stm
Like Creole?
Or jive!
When I 1st heard of Pidgin English I was just a kid of about 14 (1971) & genuinely thought it was 'pigeon english'.
If it's any consolation, I'm in my 40s and I thought it was "pigeon English" until about ten minutes ago.
GrahamS - Member
Seems totally analogous with Ulster Scotts to me.Yeah that's kinda the point I was making. The cartoon ginger in the video reckons Pidgin is just "crappy" English and we should be encouraging West Africans to "better themselves" instead of pandering to it.
Ulster Scots (or Insular Scots, Northern Scots, Central Scots, Southern Scots) is likewise regarded by some as "crappy English".
It doesn't have to be [i]either or[/i]. Something can be a dialect without being crappy English. I guess it doesn't help when these thing become politicised and people try to attach "language" status to a dialect in order to access funding or social status.
Something can be a dialect without being crappy English.
Agreed. The "crappy English" thing came from that video deadkenny posted where the guy argued that West African Pidgin wasn't a real thing, it was just poorly learnt English, equivalent to him taking a couple of Spanish lessons and then wanting his "crappy Spanish" to be catered for instead of just expecting him to get better at Spanish.
Which to me misses the point that this pidgin is a [i]lingua franca[/i] of West Africa, with hundreds of years of history, and is very widely spoken.
He says it "soft bigotry" because the BBC are somehow assuming that West Africans are incapable of learning proper Queen's English.
I disagree. I can't see much wrong with trying to communicate with hundreds of millions of people in their common tongue. And I think his alternative amounts to shouting [i]"SPEAK! ENGLISH!"[/i] at people, which doesn't feel like the right approach.
And I think his alternative amounts to shouting "SPEAK! ENGLISH!" at people, which doesn't feel like the right approach.
Rightly or wrongly, English is the International Language of Business, Engineering, Maritime and Aviation.
When you have a meeting involving a mix of nationalities, then 99.9% the default language is English.
It's a simple of fact, being able to speak English can be a massive benefit for someone. Why would you not want to encourage that?
Why would you not want to encourage that?
I don't think the BBC are out to [i]discourage[/i] anyone from speaking English.
But likewise I don't think that only providing stuff in English is the best way to reach people that don't speak English.
GrahamS - Member
Something can be a dialect without being crappy English.Agreed. The "crappy English" thing came from that video deadkenny posted where the guy argued that West African Pidgin wasn't a real thing, it was just poorly learnt English, equivalent to him taking a couple of Spanish lessons and then wanting his "crappy Spanish" to be catered for instead of just expecting him to get better at Spanish.
Which to me misses the point that this pidgin is a lingua franca of West Africa, with hundreds of years of history, and is very widely spoken.
He says it "soft bigotry" because the BBC are somehow assuming that West Africans are incapable of learning proper Queen's English.
I disagree. I can't see much wrong with trying to communicate with hundreds of millions of people in their common tongue. And I think his alternative amounts to shouting "SPEAK! ENGLISH!" at people, which doesn't feel like the right approach.
Well I wasn't going to click the video because the thumbnail was so bad.
Imo I don't think it's really neccessary to have websites translated into this if anyone who reads it can read English. We all read in our own accent and a dialect is just (broadly speaking) an extreme accent or colloquialism. If a pidgin speaker, or an Ulster scotts speaker reads a paragraph of text they are going to colloquialise it in their head automatically.
Translating it seems to be little more than phonetically spelling the accent. I'm not really concerned whether or not it's soft biggotry, we just have to be honest about what the difference between a language a dialect is.
There is simply no real requirement for the BBC Pidgin, its pathetic, they will be posting recipes for goat pepper soup next, there is sufficient media to satisfy all languages, this is purely an exercise in silliness.
I bought all of my families Samsung S6`s in Lagos, my Iphone5 and the best wireless dongle I have ever had (which incidentally was unavailable in the UK at the time............BEAT THAT !!!)
BBC Bellendry at its finest
Outraged of Denhaw !
Imo I don't think it's really neccessary to have websites translated into this if anyone who reads it can read English.
I don't think that is the case.
Translating it seems to be little more than phonetically spelling the accent.
West African Pidgin was described as a mix of English and Portuguese borrowing from 500+ local languages. I think it goes a bit beyond English in a funny accent with no tenses.
Picking some interesting random phrases from the BBC Pidgin site:
No wahala na something wey dey sweet for mouth.Correct journalist Didi Akinyelure sef chook mouth for BBC Pidgin wey just land.
..
Mr Adjei talk say dis one go scatter all di things wey di country don plan to make sure say people no spread di disease and cases of new HIV no go dey again.
..
But e remain small make McGregor forget say na boxing im dey do after he im give Mayweather plenty blow for the back of im head.
There is simply no real requirement for the BBC Pidgin
I'm assuming you have some market analysis to back that up?
The BBC seem to think there is some demand. I'm assuming they have given it at least a bit of thought before employing a team of people to run the site.
They may well be wrong, time will tell, but I don't see the harm in trying.
I bought all of my families Samsung S6`s in Lagos, my Iphone5 and the best wireless dongle I have ever had
Which pretty much supports my point that the Nigerian commenter saying [i]"people they are targeting who might appreciate reading the news in pidgin don't have access to the internet"[/i] is a bit short sighted.
But e remain small make McGregor forget say na boxing im dey do after he im give Mayweather plenty blow for the back of im head.
If you can read that, then you could understand the corressponding sentence in English.
we just have to be honest about what the difference between a language a dialect is.
OK - you first .... what is the difference? Best definition I've heard is that a language is a dielect with an army. Got a more "honest" suggestion?
If you can read that, then you could understand the corressponding sentence in English.
The point of any [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pidgin ]pidgin language[/url] is that it is a grammatically simplified common tongue combining multiple sources with simplified rules, vocabulary, tenses, clauses etc.
Just because the main source language in WA Pidgin is English doesn't mean that speakers would be able to read or speak formal English in all its confusing and contradictory complex glory.
And so do most West Africans.
Nope, they don't understand UK/US English, but Pidgin they do. That's why there's a BBC service there. It's a "soft power" thing. I'd be interested to know whether the US or China have a similar service there.
The answer is, it is, and I accept it's not racism (I only questioned if it was anyway).
So when you said they surely would be accused of all kinds of racism, that was a question?
That pidgin English is not too dissimilar to the way proper Yorkshire farmers speak!
I'm assuming you have some market analysis to back that up?
I dont need market analysis, theres plenty of online Nigerian newspapers written in non - pidgin, theres an abundance of the printed versions.
The BBC seem to think there is some demand. I'm assuming they have given it at least a bit of thought before employing a team of people to run the site.
Whether they think there is demand or not
I'm assuming you have some market analysis to back that up?
I dont need market analysis, theres plenty of online Nigerian newspapers written in non - pidgin, theres an abundance of the printed versions.
The BBC seem to think there is some demand. I'm assuming they have given it at least a bit of thought before employing a team of people to run the site.
Well thats your assumption, I doubt there is any real justification, thats my opinion.
In my opinion the Pidgin site is there purely to satisfy the ambitions of some rather dim patronising types who clearly havent done any actual market research or they would know that West Africa and Lagos in particular has a well read population of very politically minded folk who will probably never bother to use this site, google Nigerian Newspapers and you will find some pretty interesting stuff, they also have some quite interesting chat forums where a bit of pidgin is bandied about.
Maybe the BBC think they can convey West African news better than the Locals ?
If only the Beeb had asked a man who'd bought a phone in Lagos.
I dont need market analysis, theres plenty of online Nigerian newspapers written in non - pidgin, theres an abundance of the printed versions.
Newspapers exist in non-pidgin, therefore there is no demand for pidgin?
I think your logic is a little flawed. I can buy English newspapers in Wales. Is there no demand for [url= http://golwg360.cymru/ ]Welsh news[/url]? Or a [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/cymrufyw ]Welsh service on the BBC[/url]?
Wales and Cardiff in particular has a well read population of very politically minded folk and they even have some quite interesting chat forums where a bit of Welsh is bandied about. 😉
Newspapers exist in non-pidgin, therefore there is no demand for pidgin?
If there was sufficient demand they would already exist, they may even exist for all we know.
Wales and Cardiff in particular has a well read population of very politically minded folk and they even have some quite interesting chat forums where a bit of Welsh is bandied about.
Nice !
If only the Beeb had asked a man who'd bought a phone in Lagos.
Nicer
Wales and Cardiff in particular has a well read population of very politically minded folk and they even have some quite interesting chat forums where a bit of Welsh is bandied about.
But can you buy a a Galaxy S6 in Wales?
If there was sufficient demand they would already exist, they may even exist for all we know.
Right... so there might be an established demand for it then [i]for all we know?[/i]
Drac - Moderator
So when you said they surely would be accused of all kinds of racism, that was a question?
Yes. Phrased badly.
Done now with all this. Am in the wrong. Egg on face.
Try Pigdin next time but very noble of you to admit you were in wrong.