I suspect saxabar has the long term solution - not sure how we buy the time to start the process.
Two things. Its very sad. But a white guy going into a civil war where the FSA already had hardleaning Islamic factions beheading rival FSA factions (at that time) is suicidal.
To expect anyone to go in and risk their lives to rescue people who enter such a situation effectively of their making is wrong.
In addition you should not go to parts of Nigeria and all of Libya now unless you accept the very real chance of death.
Loving the armchair generals and their tactical advice.
So, negotiate. For what? To recognise and ligitamise the "caliphate" where they are free to carry out whatever atrocities take their whim? Where they can expand without check? In order to negotiate both sides need to approach the table with clear goals but also ready to be flexible.
What can we do? I think saxabar is on the right lines. Bombing will achieve nothing. It didn't before, won't now. Snipers? Got to get them close enough. How you going to do that? Any ground troops round there would be very vulnerable to capture and subsequent public murder. Also where are they? Air strikes so far have had limited success but without targets identified what you shoot at? Cut off the supply lines. It's all you can do. Bring pressure to bear on Arab countries providing the financial support. Isolate them. Let them have their little caliphate, see how long they survive without food. How long can they fight without ammo?
Air strikes so far have had limited success
If it was not for the air strikes more cities would have fallen by now, maybe even Baghdad. With out the air strikes many more of the local fighters on the ground may not have fought against Isis but fled.
They are many pictures on the net of local civilians just being dragged to the floor and decapitated and people smiling sat on a bench in front of metal railings decorated with the heads of many.
If I was living in Iraq, I would get my family the **** out of dodge and then join the fight against them.
And would rather be killed by an air strike than be murdered and my wife and daughters raped and sold as slaves.
People were up in arms because DLT felt a tit.
Seems to me 'the west' is doing everything IS wants them to do. The media are broadcasting and creating their propaganda for them while the governments drop more bombs and act as their recruiting agents. It's an unpalatable and cold option, but I'd suggest the first response should be to ignore them. They didn't report the original kidnappings, so why the need to report all the gory details of the murders, or even the murders at all? Once they're starved of publicity and support then the long and difficult work of quietly defeating them on the ground can begin.
Seems to me IS is doing everything the west wants them to do; play the part of an implacable enemy which has to be eradicated by military force (kerrrr-ching!) and at a cost to our liberties.
I wonder who is really pulling IS' strings? After all if they had released their hostages unharmed, and not gone on slaughtering rampages they would be in a far better position to argue that all they want to do is establish a strict but popular islamic state; examples of which already exist elsewhere in the region.
Ponder that thought for a while; and ask yourself if David Cameron would be grieving for a working class taxi driver, living in the north, most likely not a Tory supporter, in other circumstances.
Perhaps I have been tricked by the Western media but I don't see how doing nothing is an option.
If left alone ISIS will be able to set up a functioning Caliphate, with a standing army, oil revenues etc.
Does anyone really believe that they will then be happy to stay within their borders? They are preaching that they want to take over the World and it is Gods will that all must be subject to their law.
The air strikes have prevented them expanding further, without them it is very likely that they would of taken Baghdad.
The West thought the Arab Spring would lead to people embracing democracy, it hasn't. Getting to that stage is a long way away. It took WW1 for the UK to even get close to a democracy and it wasn't until 1928 that we gave women the vote. In a culture where it is written in their law that a women is inferior to a man, how is that going to happen?
We will have confront them. It is a question of when and how, not if.
Does anyone really believe that they will then be happy to stay within their borders? They are preaching that they want to take over the World and it is Gods will that all must be subject to their law.
Does anyone really believe that they will take over the World ?
And that is not their stated aim btw, that is not what they are preaching.
What they are preaching is that the Sykes–Picot Agreement is null and void and that they aim is to establish a caliphate encompassing the Levant.
If the West stopped interfering and destabilizing the region it might make their job more difficult.
The basic problem is that all of these fundamentally religious states are the same, so which ones should we bomb for killing people as they won't believe the correct version of a religion ?
Does anyone really believe that they will take over the World ?
No I don't.
What they are preaching is that the Sykes–Picot Agreement is null and void and that they aim is to establish a caliphate encompassing the Levant.
A bit like 1938 when Hitler only wanted the Sudetenland back, as it belonged to Germany and Versailles was "null and void".
Peace for our time anyone?
I wonder if it's at all possible that people could assess the IS situation on it's own merits instead of just comparing them to the nazis. The only similarity is that they're a bunch of murderous nutters who have an unfailing belief in their ideology. Everything else is different.
It's time the Muslim community did a bit more to address this issue, which is actually a slur on the peaceful teachings of Islam. Yes or no?
Ah you mean like those massive Christian rallies we had against the Lords Resistance Army?
They are more like Genghis Kahns Mongol hoardes than the Nazis. I hope they don't have the success of either of them though but it will get a lot worse before it gets better.
Does anyone really believe that they will take over the World ?
No because they will not be allowed to get as far as to take over Iraq.
Everything else is different.
The area is made up of states with borders have been drawn by others.
The area has just been through several years of war.
The area has massive economic problems.
The "ordinary" person is suffering with a lack of food and resources.
The "ordinary" people are turning to extremists for a solution to the problem.
The extremists are aggressive and expansive.
The "ordinary" people have rejected democracy.
There are probably others.
The fact that the "West" has created this situation doesn't mean we won't have to deal with it.
Versailles was the catalyst for the Nazis.
It's time the Muslim community did a bit more to address this issue
What would you suggest? Maybe a facebook viral campaign? Would that be enough to reassure the non-muslim population of their peaceful intentions? Or maybe they could paint a white crescent or something on their front doors just to identify themselves as non-IS supporters?
If left alone ISIS will be able to set up a functioning Caliphate, with a standing army, oil revenues etc.
Let them get on with it.
In all conflicts there will always be collateral damage, so what about a well placed nuke?
http://www.debate.org/opinions/should-we-nuke-syria
Let them get on with it.
I agree, as long as we do not allow any British citizens dual passports to come back let them take the worlds nutters, I'm sure as a state will function perfectly fine.
I mean, it all worked out well with Israel......
I think the leave em to it idea is a good one but personally I think that IS would not be happy until they spread there ideals to many other countries as they hold Western way of life with such disdain,maybe this problem if left to it self could be even closer to home than it is now .Very sad and difficult times are ahead
I think the leave em to it idea is a good one but personally I think that [s]IS[/s][b] the economic neo liberal concensus[/b] would not be happy until they spread there ideals to many other countries as they hold [s]Western[/s] [b]alternative ways of life[/b] with such disdain,maybe this problem [s]if left to it self could be even closer to [/s]is already at home [s]than it is[/s] now .Very sad and difficult times are ahead
Fixed up and making sense.
Just google image ISIS.
To see the very worst of the human condition.
Just google image ISIS.
To see the very worst of the human condition.
as opposed to images of a more enlightened worldview like this ?
[img] 
[/img]
No anger directed at the western governments dishing out wholesale horror on a daily basis, slaughtering innocent men, women and children in their own ****ing homes with utter impunity..
what pathetic and abhorrent hypocrisy.. You useless ****ing cowards
I'm struggling to have compassion in times like these.
Appalling news that a Citizen of the UK whose primary ethics saw him head out to help those in need has been brutally murdered by anyone, never mind ISIS.
Such very sad news indeed.
as opposed to images of a more enlightened worldview like this ?
The images are far worse than that,
That's not even close
The images are far worse than that,
That's not even close
ideologically driven killing is ideologically driven killing. i don't see one being any better or worse than the other
We should stop referring to them as Islamic State. They're not Islamic (condemned by genuine Muslims) and they're not a State, just rebels. But calling themselves Islamic State results in kids who think they are supporting Islam going to join them.
Did you google image Isis or not,
If you can not see these people (Isis not Muslims or brown people)
Need to be eradicated you must be a few cowboys short of a posse.
They're not Islamic (condemned by genuine Muslims)
Where does this stuff come from? Why is ISIS's version any more or less real than that of your local mosque?
Why is Westboro Baptist's Christianity less genuine than Catholic Christianity?
They're simply very misguided individuals.
It's all quite sad...
Or maybe they could paint a white crescent or something on their front doors just to identify themselves as non-IS supporters?
Perhaps some sort of easily-recognizable geometric symbol in a distinctive colour affixed to outer garments? I seem to remember such insignia were successfully used in the past to identify antisocial elements.
[b]History tells us you can't ever "win" a war.[/b]
ISIS are not an conventional army. They don't wear a uniform and fight according to the Geneva Convention. They fight when and where it suits them, and melt back into the general population (which they form) when that suits them.
You cannot bomb or sniper EVERY single one of them. The more you kill, the more whom will be ready and waiting to step up into the still smoking shoes of those killed. You would have to kill every single person in the country.
Oppression STRENGTHENS peoples reserve to fight. Vietnam, Northern Ireland, Afganistan, Iraq, England(1940-1), Germany(1945). All examples of where members the general populous would have "fought to the death" before admitting defeat
Boredom and poverty lead to extremism. ISIS have a lot of supporters in the country because those people have "nothing better to do". For a population in poverty, living day to day under poor conditions, the opportunity to "make something of themselves" is a big draw. I suspect a lot of ISIS supporters are relatively young. Young men who enjoy having a "cause". Young men who feel good about having this "cause".
History shows us that revolution must come from the people. The cold war was not "won" by the West using fear and intimidation. Russia fell because it's population wanted Widescreen TVs and mobile phones, nice cars, and a better quality of life.
ISIS cannot "take over the world". The currently have some "power" because they are a terrorist organisation. To take over the world, you need a conventional army. As soon as they have that, they are vulnerable to attack, and would be instantly destroyed by the Wests massively superior armies. In the event they manage to get enough extremists in the UK to cause atrocities at home, how long before these people(potentially ethnic cleansing of all Muslims and there supporters here!) were rounded up and exported, or before we'd had enough and UK popular opinion was just "nuke Syria" etc. Not long i suspect.
The only route forwards that History shows us will work is to do nothing. We shut the borders to these countries, remove all economic aid, and that is that. Internal issues (water, fuel, electricity, food) will rapidly remove ISIS's ability to expedite any external action, when they have a population internally demanding of them continuously. They want Power, give them power and they will suddenly become burdened by the responsibility of that power. Even tyrants like Saddam Hussain felt that burden and it limited what he could do.
Unfortunately, this condemns millions of innocent people in these countries to a horrible life for many many years. Without external support, it will for them be like living in the Dark Ages. Oppression, poverty, famine. For example it's taken Vietnam something like 40 years to just start to climb onto the world stage again after the war ended in the early 1970s. And they are doing this because the population wants a better std of life, not because the communist government want them to!
The longer we interject, the longer we just sustain the suffering. Only time can fix this problem. We cannot "fix it" and hence we should not try.**
(** for me, the moral dilemma of condemning millions to poverty and suffering is only justified because History suggests it is the only option that works.)
chip - MemberDid you google image Isis or not,
If you can not see these people (Isis not Muslims or brown people)
Need to be eradicated you must be a few cowboys short of a posse.
Is your rather aggressive posturing backed up by any actual military?combat experience ?
One of my main reasons for not supporting Camerons current policy towards ISIS is that I have a seventeen year old son, I would not be prepared to commit him to fight in a war !
I myself have passed the age for military service so I could not volunteer.
Are you prepared to go to war ???
Do you think we should go into North East Nigeria ?
Did you know the Nigerian Army are indiscriminately killing innocent muslims ?
What about Libya ?
They're not Islamic (condemned by genuine Muslims)Where does this stuff come from? Why is ISIS's version any more or less real than that of your local mosque?
Why is Westboro Baptist's Christianity less genuine than Catholic Christianity?
You really can't see the difference between the central messages in Islam and Christianity and the distorted versions offered by the likes of ISIS and the Westboro Baptists ?
They're not Islamic (condemned by genuine Muslims)Where does this stuff come from? Why is ISIS's version any more or less real than that of your local mosque?
Why is Westboro Baptist's Christianity less genuine than Catholic Christianity?
Because there are lots of good people who believe in the Muslim faith who do not want to be associated with Isis.
And who believe what Isis is doing is against every thing they believe to be Islamic.
Are you prepared to go to war ???
I am too old and past it to be first choice but if called upon, I would go.
Has your seventeen year old son signed up, if not you have nothing to worry about.
What about Libya ?
Now there's a question.......what about Libya ?
It seemed such a good idea to go there and interfere.
Of course only to some people, others suggested it would be a bad idea.
[i]"Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it"[/i]
ISIS cannot "take over the world". The currently have some "power" because they are a terrorist organisation. To take over the world, you need a conventional army.
I think you are confusing ISIS with Al Qaeda.
ISIS have paid soldiers, tanks, artillery and they also have aircraft, fortunately they do not yet have the capacity to operate them. It is not just a few beardy blokes in Hi Lux's.
Until the air strikes started they had surrounded Baghdad and it looked like it was going to fall.
Until the air strikes started they had surrounded Baghdad and it looked like it was going to fall.
The US has been carrying out airstrikes against ISIS for month now. From last Tuesday :
[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/isis-an-hour-away-from-baghdad--with-no-sign-of-iraq-army-being-able-to-make-a-successful-counterattack-9763658.html ]Isis an hour away from Baghdad - with no sign of Iraq army being able to make a successful counter-attack[/url]
[i]US air strikes are failing to drive back Isis in Iraq where its forces are still within an hour’s drive of Baghdad.[/i]
To help understand how ISIS has had remarkable success against far superior forces it might be useful to look at Afghanistan where the Taliban swept to power in the 1990s despite being made of mostly ideologically driven youngest with no military experience, imo the comparisons are significant.
Sorry, for once I haven't read the full thread before I chip in.
I suggest we read this. It seems to agree with maxtorque's sentiments.
Really, we're playing to them.
gobuchulI think you are confusing ISIS with Al Qaeda.
ISIS have paid soldiers, tanks, artillery and they also have aircraft, fortunately they do not yet have the capacity to operate them. It is not just a few beardy blokes in Hi Lux's.
And how long, if a real "war" started, do you think it would take the USAF to remove those threats? Considering they negated Saddams entire Iraq airforce in about 30mins.
Having a MIG is all well and good, but using it, against a highly trained opponent is a whole different ball game.
No, ISIS want us to attack them because that helps their cause. They see the West as Bullies and Oppressors. If we just say, "Fair enough, it's yours" and back out that leaves them with no cause and a huge domestic headache in return from actually trying to run a country.
I asked this on another thread , what is the risk to Russian and Chinese people in Syria?
It only seems to be English speaking people being targeted which leads me to believe that we are reaping what we have sown.
Fair enough, it's yours"
And leave thousands of innocent people to be murdered and displaced.
Because there are lots of good people who believe in the Muslim faith who do not want to be associated with Isis.
And who believe what Isis is doing is against every thing they believe to be Islamic.
The ISIS guys think the same about your lot! Why do you think one group's version is more authentic than the other's?
