All religion is fanny as far as I am concerned.
And it is not about killing Muslims or saving Muslims.
It's about stopping a band of barbarous butchers running amok to slaughter all they wish too,
I could not give a **** if they were Rastafarians.
But for people to associate people with Isis because they are Muslim is wrong.
Being Muslim does not make you murdering scum nor do you have to be Muslim to be murdering scum.
You just have to be murdering scum.
And if you can convince people who believe in god (any god or religion)
That these acts of atrocity are gods will you are on to a winner.
Never see any news, so here's my half-baked tongue-in-cheek solution:
What this lot want is an islamic state right? Well why not just leave them to it? All the loony fundamentals from over here can go live there and play 'I'm more islamic than you', while all the normal people (women & kids) from over there who don't want to live in a fun-free seriously dark-ages country can come and live here. They could even swap houses.
No anger directed at the western governments dishing out wholesale horror on a daily basis, slaughtering innocent men, women and children in their own * homes with utter impunity..what pathetic and abhorrent hypocrisy.. You useless
* cowards
Couple of times people have thrown this into the ring and I'll ask again - I haven't kept fully up to date with the news and I may have missed it but I am not aware that Western forces have been slaughtering civilians [u]as part of the strikes against IS.[/u]
I fully accept that our past record is as bad as, Israel, the Ba'ath Party, Assad etc, but for the world to try and deal with this menace, we have to draw a line under previous disasters and try and work together.
Yeah you make a fair point.. But I'm not sure that your progressive stance would be so easy to swallow if I was an armed and very dangerous radicalised freedom fighter..
I just can't stand the sort of witless numpties that get themselves in a lather over one act of brutality whilst heartily condoning countless others.. It's ignorance at it's purest.
I wonder if it's at all possible that people could assess the IS situation on it's own merits instead of just comparing them to the nazis. The only similarity is that they're a bunch of murderous nutters who have an unfailing belief in their ideology. Everything else is different.
Innit. The Nazis had sweet uniforms designed by Hugo Boss, whereas ISIS look like a bunch of hobo's...
[url= http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/05/air-strikes-isis-not-working-syrian-kurds ]Air strikes against Isis are not working, say Syrian Kurds[/url]
Last week the Turks said they would not let kobani fall and had amassed a ground force on the border ready to go in.
They are reluctant to do so as the Kurds they will be helping are there enemy under normal circumstances but if they have to they will as under no circumstances will they let kobani fall.
I don't think anyone said air strikes alone would erase IS forces from the face of the earth. I believe that air strikes were initated in order to assist those who are fighting IS. So, technically, yes, air power alone, won't defeat IS.
I believe everyone knows this.
As for allowing IS to establish their own state, etc. Taking a step back for a moment, perhaps others can see that allowing IS to grow and form a state, as it is trying to do. Would then demonstrate for anyone else, the template by which other, equally murderous, groups of people would set about getting whatever they thought they had a right to, including justification for murdering the general public, aid workers, etc. Allowing IS to form their own state in this manner would be a green light to many others to do as they please safe in the knowledge that the international community would not stop them behaving in the manner IS have.
Finally, as mentioned on page 2, I find the murder of that 14yr old girl also, to be so sad. Just 14yrs, truely saddening.
As for allowing IS to establish their own state, etc. Taking a step back for a moment, perhaps others can see that allowing IS to grow and form a state, as it is trying to do.
Trying to do? Horse... stable door?
As for the next one? Afghanistan perhaps? We'll be out of there completely in a short while. Give it a week and it'll be indistinguishable from how it was before we got there. In complete Taliban control. Then they can start a competition with ISIS as to can be the most insanely barbaric. Thus demonstrating to everyone, ISIS in particular, as if any further proof were needed, the limits of western military power.
So trying to use military power, in this case air power exclusively, to remove ISIS is a completely pointless exercise, as it simply won't work. They know that. We know that. So carrying on with this ridiculous charade is patently ridiculous.
We have to start coming up with some more imaginative solutions to the problem. Or simply stay out of it, and let them get on with it. They're all mental! Its just that ISIS are a bit more mental than the rest of them. We should be helping the Turks secure their borders, supplying aid to the stream of refugees, and then leaving them to get on with their 'my Islam's better than your Islam' competition
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So trying to use military power, in this case air power exclusively, to remove ISIS is a completely pointless exercise, as it simply won't work. They know that. We know that. So carrying on with this ridiculous charade is patently ridiculous.
its not just that it wont work, its exactly what IS want!
the inevitable civilian casualties and destruction of infrastructure only galvanises the population against the west
the mostly inefectual bombing campaings; sending multi million $ jets to fire millions of $ of rockets against the odd Toyota Hilux suits these guys just fine
destruction of infrastructure
Or
the odd Toyota Hilux
Make your mind up.
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As said the air strikes are in support of the forces on the ground, who are trying to save there towns and cities from being overrun by Isis. Because this will lead to mass murder and rape for those who don't manage to escape leaving everything behind apart from what they can carry.
Galvanises the population my arse.
We are not fighting against the population, we are helping them defend themselves at there request from a fete of unbelievable evil.
I could post a picture of a man lying facedown in the dirt, having his head pulled up by his eye sockets by someone to allow him to slice his head off.
And unlike your imaginary spiders, it's real and happening everyday to the poor people of Iraq.
They're all mental! Its just that ISIS are a bit more mental than the rest of them.
+1.
Chip - I take it you missed the bit about the air strikes not actually making the remotest bit of difference? Not even slowing the advance of ISIS, never mind stopping it. Apparently - and this is difficult to believe, I know - blowing up the odd couple of beardy, shouty blokes in a Toyota pick up doesn't actually have that much effect against tens of thousands of heavily armed, and well organised psychotic loons who think they're on a mission from god, and are happily prepared to die for their cause - the establishment of a caliphate
I know... who'd have thunk it, eh?
I gather you also missed the bit about all the disparate islamist groups, previously fighting each (like they tend to do), who have all now joined forces against a common enemy.... us
If you believe it has not made a difference that is up to you.
Common enemy ...... Us
**** em. If you can turn a blind eye to there behaviour because you are scared they will turn their attention to you.
That is also up to you.
chip - MemberIf you believe it has not made a difference that is up to you.
Well, that and the people on the ground the air strikes are supposed to be helping saying they're not helping.
So do they want us to stop.
Chip I do admire your almost Blair-esque capacity for ignoring the clearly reported facts in favour of 'the World as we'd Like it to be' narrative.
Nobody is defending ISIS,. Merely pointing out that our involvement thus far has been, at best, completely ineffectual, and at worst, totally counter-productive, and actually making the situation worse.
So anyone with anything between their ears would suggest re-thinking the whole thing. Unfortunately, its more likely that the powers-that-be will be as blind to the reality on the ground, and support your hung-ho lets-go-get-em nonsense, and carry on with this completely spurious, nonsensical 'mission'.
And this belief that defeating ISIS will bring peace to the area is fanciful at best.
That is your opinion and you are welcome to it.
And one I gladly do not share.
That is your opinion and you are welcome to it.
And one I gladly do not share.
[i]binners - Member
Chip I do admire your almost Blair-esque capacity for ignoring the clearly reported facts in favour of 'the World as we'd Like it to be' narrative.[/i]
Clearly reported, yes. "Facts", well, now there's a question.
[i]Merely pointing out that our involvement thus far has been, at best, completely ineffectual, and at worst, totally counter-productive, and actually making the situation worse.
So anyone with anything between their ears would suggest re-thinking the whole thing. Unfortunately, its more likely that the powers-that-be will be as blind to the reality on the ground, and support your hung-ho lets-go-get-em nonsense, and carry on with this completely spurious, nonsensical 'mission'. [/i]
Binners.
I don't admire your persistance. You've clearly informed everyone, as to what exactly your opinion is. Then repeated yourself. Therefore, I wonder what you hope to achieve now, by picking on, in this case, Chip. Who clearly doesn't agree with you.
Solo - It's just this quaint old fashioned thing, probably misguided, about relying on facts, as opposed to emotional knee-jerk, tabloid editorial style feelings about how I'd like the world to be. I realise this puts me at odds with most of the political establishment as well as your good self and Chip.
Having said that, there is a certain charm to seeing a combination of child-like naïveté, mindless misplaced optimism about our capacity to actually shape events, and a military blood lust. Bless you're little camouflage cotton socks
chip - MemberThat is your opinion and you are welcome to it.
And one I gladly do not share.
Shia militias fighting in the north have been accused of reprisals against Sunni Iraqis.
Shia militias around Baghdad have said they will 'cleanse' and 'erase' when they retake territory from ISIS.
Does anyone else think we ie the West or more specificaly the media are over stating the military capabilities of ISIS or ISIL?
They have taken over large parts of two countries who dont really have any credibile forces. Parading captured hardware doesnt mean they know how to use it or service it.
Loons they are but good soldiers??? maybe a hard core of 2000 would be up for the fight but put some motivated forces against them and they would crumble away.
Don't worry about me solo,
I never take the internet personally or try to belittle some because we do not agree ( I did say try).
I quite enjoy the arguement and will be agreeing with someone tomorrow who I did not today.
Biners is welcome to think what he wishes and believe what he wishes providing it does not harm anyone else as he lives in a free country. A free country thanks to a great many brave men.
[i]Having said that, there is a certain charm to seeing a combination of child-like naïveté, mindless misplaced optimism about our capacity to actually shape events, and a military blood lust. Bless you're little camouflage cotton socks [/i]
And again, I put it to you, that you are repeating yourself. We know what your opinion is, thank you.
Same for Lifer, you have clearly posted your opinion, we get it, thank you.
Very sad to see what by the reports I've heard, has been done to a Man afflicted with a desire to help and assist those in need.
When trying to establish how effective the air strikes are it is worth remembering The Kurds and Isis while opposed to each other both have a similar agenda to get western troops involved on the ground the Kurds as they need want help in the ground fight Isis as they see it as away of rallying support from other groups or if you believe their guff because they love death and want to kill western troops in a toe to toe fight.
I can't see how we can justify standing by and doing nothing, can't stomach our so called Allies in the region who appear to be the flip side of the same coin and do not see that the deployment of ground troops will have a beneficial outcome as we will never have a clear exit strategy or road map for long term stability. So with reluctance I think Air Strikes are the least bad option to contain Isis while something else comes along.
Something else could be isolation and collapse internally or our loyal and noble Arab Allies deciding to cut off their pocket money and the flow of tacit complicity and ideological justification .
[quote=Pigface said]Does anyone else think we ie the West or more specificaly the media are over stating the military capabilities of ISIS or ISIL?
Of course we have - have you read 1984? now we have beaten the scourge of communism we need a new baddy and this lot will do.
