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The Muslims which dominate the WhatsApp groups I am on
Is this the modern version of 'some of my best friends are black'?
Is this the modern version of ‘some of my best friends are black’?
What an idiotic comment - are suggesting that in the same vein as the "some of my best friends are black" I am actually hiding islamophobic sentiments? ffs
It is a simple statement of fact that the local Palestine solidarity movement and the WhatsApp groups associated with it are dominated by Muslims, and some of them are actually Palestinian.
As a consequence I am aware of how at least some Muslims have felt about the recent far-right riots.
you probably earned more than a lot of the people you feel uncomfortable around
No not at all. It is a "cultural" thing anyhow, it has little if anything to do with money. One of my best friends who with his own construction industry company has always earned considerably more than me and yet we are on exactly the same wavelength. I feel much more comfortable in the presence of working-class company than I do in professional middle-class company. There is nothing weird about that and it is perfectly natural imo.
Honestly, this whole working class vs middle class thing is just yet more putting people in groups, i have friends, i don't care if they're middle class, working class or upper class, same as i have people i actively avoid, going round sticking labels on people is more pretentious than anything else.
Yup. I certainly didn't bring it up. But apparently I don't understand how white working-class people think because I allegedly live in a bubble. Despite being white working-class myself.
I have no idea of the class or racial background of the individual who made the allegation nor do I care.
Sorry for trying to actually engage in a conversation and learn something. I was only trying to understand why you genuinely believe racism isnt as wide spread in our society as I do. Clearly down to differences in our experiences which I was trying to understand, I wasnt the one who went off on one and started to judge you based on your identification as a white working class man.
If you want an antagonistic row crack on, I can't be bothered.
Antagonistic?? You suggested that I, quote, "may not move in white working class circles". I simply pointed out that I am white working-class myself and yes I do "move in white working-class circles".
What is the problem....... that I didn't agree with you? Is that why you think I am being antagonistic?
Some interesting stuff here:
https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/50375-how-do-britons-feel-the-2024-riots-were-handled
Particularly this:
the number believing the legal system has done a good job dealing with the situation has shot up from just a quarter of Britons (27%) to a clear majority of 57%.
That's quite a turnaround in just a fortnight. The long custodial sentences appear to be highly popular with the public.
Or maybe they just don't like racists
More like they don't like thugs who go around rioting. If they had peacefully protested about too much immigration a lot of those who liked the sentencing would be agreeing with the protesters.
Agree with Stumpjon that racism, or more particularly anti immigration, are very widespread in this (and pretty much any country). That is why the populists know that stirring it up works well for them.
It is always a very fine line between racism and anti-immigration but both are based on ignorance. For example, the 98% of immigration that is not asylum seekers, what would the anti immigration people want down with that - presumably stop it all based on their ignorant bliss of not realising we actually need most of that 98% to either perform jobs that need doing or pay money into economy via things like universities.
you may not move in white working class circles, obviously this is the internet so I’m basing this completely on your posts so could be completely wrong.
There's the full quote. Ok so you identify as white working class, and yet you still believe
Again and again this small minority is seen as representing mainstream thinking.
Which makes me think even more you live in some strange parallel universe where anti immigration sentiment is not endemic in our society.
What is the problem……. that I didn’t agree with you?
Not really your clearly wrong and obviously aren't prepared to consider that fact. You've tied yourself up in knots trying to prove your point. Especially behind the public not liking the rioters indicating the public must be anti fascist, it doesnt work like that, not liking people smashing up neighbourhoods and not liking immigrants are not mutually exclusive.
The long custodial sentences appear to be highly popular with the public.
All that shows once again is the public like simple answers to complex problems. These aren't particularly long sentences, we all know that prison isn't fit for purpose, it's a punishment tool but it doesnt deter and without massive funding and a major change in focus it isn't doing what we really need it to do which is rehabilitate people to be part of society.
Antagonistic?? You suggested that I, quote, “may not move in white working class circles”. I simply pointed out that I am white working-class myself and yes I do “move in white working-class circles”.
I don't know how you're "doing" quotes, but the random text size changes are really irritating.
The long custodial sentences appear to be highly popular with the public
I wonder how Lord James Timson, Minister of State responsible for prison operations, policy and reform (amongst other things) feels?
He's frequently complained about the public wanting harsher sentencing without understanding the problems caused by that. He thinks that only a third of current prisoners should be incarcerated.
A vote has been proposed in September that will reduce prison sentences from 50% served to 40% for most prisoners.
Meanwhile, innocent people are being held in prisons while awaiting trial and yet others accused of a variety of crimes are still enjoying their freedom because the courts are at capacity
You’ve tied yourself up in knots trying to prove your point.
Eh? It is you who seems totally obsessed about arguing with me about some point or other!
I am not even sure what we are supposed to be disagreeing over, and that is a long post from someone who claims they can't be "bothered" because apparently, ironically, I am being antagonistic.
If you believe that the rioters enjoy widespread public support/sympathy that's up to you. I disagree, just try to accept that I have a different opinion.
If it's not that that we disagree over then I don't know what it is.
Btw I also disagree with your claim that the rioters are not receiving particularly long sentences. It has nothing to do with being "antagonistic", as you no doubt believe. In fact it is you who appears to be antagonist - the sentences being passed by the courts are widely seen as being quite severe.
I wonder how Lord James Timson, Minister of State responsible for prison operations, policy and reform (amongst other things) feels?
Maybe the long custodial sentences currently being imposed by the courts are not popular with the government. Maybe the long custodial sentences are not the answer. But what appears to be clear is that they are apparently popular with the wider public. There is certainly no evidence that they are not.
I presume we will all be please to see swift justice and long sentences for those causing violence and stabbings at the nothing hill carnival.
Why wouldn't we all be?
If you believe that the rioters enjoy widespread public support/sympathy that’s up to you.
Absolutely no one is saying that. Just so we can be clear what I'm disagreeing with, I'll post your statement for the third time.
Again and again this small minority is seen as representing mainstream thinking.
It's clear from other responses on here that we do generally believe the rioters were representing main stream thinking, people may not be very happy with the actions but the anti immigrent (and not just recent immigrants) sentiment is wide spread in the UK, something the Torys knew well and played it for all it was worth as that was all they had left. Unfortunately for them it wasn't enough as fiscal concerns trumped the inherent racism.
You seem desperate to equate the public's response to the actions of the rioters with a rejection of racist belief and it's just not real.
You seem desperate to equate.....
No I am not desperate to equate anything. It makes no odds to me what you believe, why would it? However I don't think that the wider public are quite as racist as stw generally seems to believe they are. STW has a long record of making imo exaggerated claims about the racist views of the public,
I am quite used to that and I certainly don't expect it to change anytime soon. But I will give examples when and where I think it is useful to challenge that mindset. It is a forum after all despite the apparent desire of some for it to be no more than an echo chamber.
However I don’t think that the wider public are quite as racist as stw generally seems to believe they are.
Again, a very fine line between racism and anti-immigration. How many of the wider public do you think are anti-immigration - especially those 'bad" immigrants coming across in boats?
Speaking to working class people (yes I am one too) I would say vast majority don't want any ore immigration.
When probed on it they clearly haven't got a clue about very much but they see it as something that should be reduced anyway.
So not just me you disagree with then
Oh no not at all, of course not. There is definitely a "stw culture" which is based on the perceptions of the affluent middle-classes represented on here. It stretches across a whole range of topics from how to make a cup of coffee to who to vote for, with the occasional discussion about pasties to provide an element of street cred.
There are undoubtedly a lot of people on stw who don't fit into this tight political/social demographics but they tend not to be as vocal. I think it is probably fair to say that I buck the trend 😉
I presume we will all be please to see swift justice and long sentences for those causing violence and stabbings at the nothing hill carnival.
Why wouldn’t we all be?
The absence of multipage threads on the topic would be seem to be a good indicator and before you suggest I start my own, I think we all know how it would go.
I presume we will all be please to see swift justice and long sentences for those causing violence and stabbings at the nothing hill carnival.
Of course.
I dare say those doing the stabbings at the carnival will more than likely be wrong uns anyway, so like the right wingers getting sentenced, will have previous and be dealt with accordingly, they'll more than likely also be folk just looking for trouble, like the rioters, hence why they're carrying knives.
As for racism in the UK, of course it's still everywhere, every generation it reduces a little due to increases in diversity, and reduction in old thinking, but it'll still be about for a long time, i grew up in the 80s and you were fed racism through TV shows, through parents/grandparents and so on, it doesn't just disappear overnight.
The absence of multipage threads on the topic would be seem to be a good indicator
Not really, stabbings in London are a daily occurrence, why should the latest one deserve a multi-page thread? Any particular reason?
A daily occurrence? You don't think that deserves a thread? Wow! I would have thought you'd be all over that.
A daily occurrence? You don’t think that deserves a thread? Wow! I would have thought you’d be all over that.
"All over" what? How can I be all over a stabbing? And I don't know why you appear to be incredulous at the suggestion of stabbings being a daily occurrence in London, they are. And they are a regular occurrence at the Notting Hill Carnival.
I confess to not knowing much about this particular stabbing so I would be interested in knowing why you think it might deserve a multi page thread - any suggestions? So far at least thankfully no one has died.
A daily occurrence? You don’t think that deserves a thread?
Do you have a point to make other than look squirrel?
If you want to discuss London stabbings then do so, I am sure others will be happy to discuss it with you. If it includes points on populist politicians spreading misinformation and rioting spreading across the UK as the result, then this may even be the appropriate thread, if not I would suggest you start another.
Not really, stabbings in London are a daily occurrence, why should the latest one deserve a multi-page thread? Any particular reason?
A daily occurrence? You don’t think that deserves a thread? Wow! I would have thought you’d be all over that.
It’s a daily occurrence across a fair part of the country, particularly in my part, but I’m not entirely sure what a thread about it would actually accomplish, because it’s not easy to explain quite why it’s happening. There have been stabbings resulting in death in Swindon, Bath, Bristol and other towns around the South West, some involving young teens, some adults, some victims seem to have been complete strangers, others known to the perpetrator/s. Some are clearly family members. Knives are a readily available weapon, guns aren’t, thankfully.
It was on the news recently where a car was stopped by the police, none of the occupants had licences, and they had weapons like machetes, large knives, etc, none of which are legal carry. Many of the weapons used though are just household items, like large kitchen knives, taken from their own home or shop-lifted. One murder of a teenager in Bath involved a bunch of kids from Corsham, who caught a bus to Bath to a party, and CCTV from the bus showed one of them showing the knife to their friends, they were carrying it down the front of their traccy bottoms! A dangerous thing to do just by itself. The usual excuse is ‘it’s for protection’…
And it's not a 'problem' now. I think a few people are wondering why a nonfatal stabbing in London yesterday might be worthy of a multi page thread something which you appear unable to explain, despite suggesting it.
The other mystery is what has it got to do with rioting in UK cities? You seem to resent the fact that there is no thread on a recent stabbing in London on the grounds, it would appear, that there is one on rioting.
There is an obvious interest in the recent rioting because riots in UK cities are fairly unusual. In contrast stabbings in major UK cities are not.
I’m trying to understand how if every year this carnival needs thousands to police, always ends in violence and stabbing is allowed to happen every year. I would have thought it would be banned in the grounds of public safety by now.
A daily occurrence? You don’t think that deserves a thread?
Just a wild stab in the dark here, but I'm guessing ernie was querying why each individual stabbing should have its own thread.
I’m trying to understand how if every year this carnival needs thousands to police,
You could apply that logic to pretty much every major football match in the country. The reality is for such a big event there relatively little trouble, to be honest there would probably have been a stabbing in the area this weekend regardless of whether the carnival was on.
The reality is for such a big event there relatively little trouble
Sunday:
Monday:
How does that ^^ compare to Glastonbury?
Glastonbury has considerably more crime than the average for Somerset. Ban Glastonbury?
How does that compare with a normal weekend in Brixton?
Try again.
According to a July 2024 Somerset County Gazette article, the 2024 Glastonbury Festival saw 121 offenses reported to the police between June 26 and July 1, which is considered "very safe". The offenses included:
Burglary: 1
Criminal damage: 3
Crime-related incidents: 27
Drug offenses: 19
Fraud: 4
Public order offenses: 7
Robbery: 1
Sexual offenses: 2
Theft: 26
Vehicle offenses: 1
Violence against a person: 30
How does that compare with a normal weekend in Brixton?
Right. So we're moving the goal posts?
The reality is that most people don't care about black on black crime, same with war in Africa, they're not the chosen demographic of the white knights of STW.
Well this is 5 years old so I guess things might have changed :
Arrest rates at Notting Hill over three years since 2016 are almost identical to Glastonbury when the number of people attending is taken into account.
- There were 3.76 arrests per 10,000 people at Notting Hill Carnival compared to 3.1 arrests per 10,000 people at Glastonbury.
This is interesting too :
“It is the only festival, the only event the Met do where they automatically put out the crime stats,”
So anyway.......... Notting Hill is just like a hate-fueled riot?
The reality is that most people don’t care about black on black crime
Who's reality is that?
I’m trying to understand how if every year this carnival needs thousands to police, always ends in violence and stabbing is allowed to happen every year. I would have thought it would be banned in the grounds of public safety by now.
Wait until you find out how many football matches there are each Saturday and the policing required at a national level...
I’m trying to understand how if every year this carnival needs thousands to police, always ends in violence and stabbing is allowed to happen every year. I would have thought it would be banned in the grounds of public safety by now.
To our resident 'edgelord'/'racist' (delete as applicable) you seem to have issue with certain events, but not others. Why is that?
Just a note on refugees not stopping at the first safe country - your house has been bombed. Is your immediate thought, oh I must get my passport out before I leave the building?
If you had family in Japan & spoke Japanese, would you get to Russia & think phew job done, or would you continue to Japan?