Forum menu
Honestly tj, your outburst is nothing other than rhetoric, with no substance. Borderline xenophobic (imo). Your dislike of certain countries is well evidenced on here.
You really think pissing off a neighbour we have already pissed off badly and who we need a lot of co operation from is nothing?
Neighbours piss each other off all the time- but I'm unsure what the UK really did here- as said, it's pretty much along for the ride, and this is basically a deal initiated by Australia, between them and the US
you think the damage done to NATO thru this is nothing?
What damage??
You think the further erosion of trust in the UK is nothing
Whose trust in the UK has been eroded, and why?
this will have repercussions for a long time.
what will these repercussions be? How will they be significant?
You keep your head in the sand.
I am sorry you cannot see how much damage this has done. I suggest you read up a bit in the international and centerist press. don't rely on the jingoism of the right wing propaganda sheets
Ambasadors are not recalled over a procurement dispute
Its just another nail in the coffin of the UKs international reputation
Who will trust us now?
You really think France will co operate with UK and US now? thats the damage to nato - two partners seen by the whole world to be untrustworthy. Who will want to cooperate now?
As for calling me xenophobic - thats its utterly absurd. which people am I supposed to have an irrational dislike of? Just because I do not buy the jingoistic nationalism does not mean I am a xenophobe. there is xenophobia on this thread but not from me
so go on - which peoples am I supposed to have an irrational dislike of?
Can you just point out to me who has been untrustworthy?
As far as i can see there is only one country that has broken or terminated a contract here and probably only one that will make money out of it and that is the us.
The uk has a bit part in this all and i suspect the French are a bit more sensible than a reactionary as you. The withdrawal of ambassadors is an election card but no question the relationships between the us, aus and France have been damaged but the uk will still be involved with French and eu ops, they are still in mali
Nato managed to survive for more than 40 years without the French being fully part of it. The greatest risk to Nato is US indifference.
Oh dear - its the hard right wing pile on
full of the usual lies
full of the usual deluded nonsense
full of the usual dimwittery.
Oh - and just for the record I am a Starmer supporter
the rest of your rant is just balderdash as well but never mind.
Oh dear – its the hard right wing pile on
Three post's, and if I'm hard right then you really have lost your marbles in retirement
full of the usual lies
Where?
full of the usual deluded nonsense
Again where
full of the usual dimwittery.
You can't state any loss to the UK despite banging on about it. I'd expect the FTSE 100 to be in free fall the way you go on
the rest of your rant is just balderdash as well but never mind.
Nope, you have freely admitted on other threads that you want to break up the union so you can live under a left of centre government.
Oh – and just for the record I am a Starmer supporter
You don't vote for labour, you openly advocate for a SNP/Green proportional voting in Scotland.
Yawn
Yawn
You still can’t state any loss to the UK
Without the military capacity we share with the French, we become utterly USA facing as regards military operation, essentially being incapable of any engagement without them. The loss here is the damaging effects on future French/UK cooperation, and the increased over dependance on the USA that will result from that.
It’s also not really all about China,
For Australia, it's utterly, totally, and absolutely about China. Same goes for China, that's why they are so pissed about it.
The loss here is the damaging effects on future French/UK cooperation, and the increased over dependance on the USA that will result from that.
Plenty will not be convinced that would be a loss.
Tbh, I think I could have written half of the posts on this thread based purely on pre-existing political positions and got them pretty much bang on.
What does Neil Oliver think?....
IGMC
or
IGM..Wetsuit
You still can’t state any loss to the UK-
You did actually get a loss stated. That being a further deterioration on relationships between the UK and our nearest major power, France, and the wider EU community. As to the level of damage that relationship has suffered only time will tell and anyone stating any remotely specific values on that at this point is full of shit frankly.
As for the damage to relations between France and Australia, I think both countries have decided it's a hit worth taking.
I dont agree with it personally, but then, I'd have the UK in the EU and that's not where we are and the UK doing stuff with other countries without going to France to check it's ok is the sort of thing you can expect to happen.
Probably about right piemonster 🙂
we become utterly USA facing as regards military operation, essentially being incapable of any engagement without them.
As demonstrated recently.
I’m also not sure if I’d label this government as Conservative.
They haven’t withdrawn the the French Ambassador to the UK. I wonder why?
Because, as they put it, the UK is the 5th wheel on the carriage. They already expect the UK to be nakedly opportunistic so that was factored in to their response.
The US and AUS discussing their deal for months while still smiling at the French, and announcing it only an hour after informing them, is another level of deceit.
I doubt the UK will be opportunistic about it, the reality is that i would see the UK being part of this deal because the US will allow Australia access to the technical data in a similar deal to what the UK has had with the US since the 50s, i can only see the UK offering any assistance to Australia in how to utilise that data and of course interface it into their new equipment, as we've recently done this with Astute, through BAE Systems, i would hazard a guess that's where we come in.
This whole thing is just a storm in a teacup, reality is that the French make large revenue through arms sales, including to the UK with dozens of sales into the billions, it doesn't stop us being competitors though, look at the Indian Rafale deal, same with several other deals, it's just business and will be forgotten at the next big deal. The French and US again don't really deal that widely though, so doubt it'll do anything there, they tend to compete around the globe for their sales.
As for relations, haven't we just went through a nasty divorce, where the French were sticking it to us at every opportunity, even the Germans were trying to help calm it down a bit, again, it's not personal, or xenophobic, it's the French trying to get as much as they can for their nation and their people.
You did actually get a loss stated. That being a further deterioration on relationships between the UK and our nearest major power, France, and the wider EU community.
The deterioration that has us operating in the Sahel providing critical capabilities to the French, putting UK lives risk every day......
If the sub situation was reversed the French would have done it in a heartbeat. Macron would be on national telly talking about France and the Indo-Pacific and it's commitments to French territories there. All with an eye on the ballot box
we become utterly USA facing as regards military operation, essentially being incapable of any engagement without them.
It can be said of all western countries, the US has resources, capabilities and numbers to deploy, they dwarf any other individual western country.
The conversations about keeping Kabul airport secure and open without the US would have highlighted the problem at the top in many countries. If you can't secure one airport then the reality of what you can do gets put into stark relief.
As for relations, haven’t we just went through a nasty divorce, where the French were sticking it to us at every opportunity,
that is so much nonsense - the french and the rest of the EU have bent over backwards to mitigate the self harm from Brexit that the UK is inflicting upon its self
So lets see one example of "the French were sticking it to us"
Pure xenophobic nonsense parrotted by the right wing propaganda sheets but clearly swallowed by some.
Guardian reporting that AUS approached UK before US…
If the sub situation was reversed the French would have done it in a heartbeat
at what point does right wing xenophobia become racism?
that really is a ridiculous thing to say.
Because, as they put it, the UK is the 5th wheel on the carriage. They already expect the UK to be nakedly opportunistic so that was factored in to their response.
Or they came up with an excuse for a two tier response because they value UK cooperation?
at what point does right wing xenophobia become racism?
Xenophobic? Racism?
All I did was point out that the French like the Australians put their national interests first. If the roles were reversed they would behave similarly. Not sure how an earth that trips into xenophobia and racism!
that really is a ridiculous thing to say.
No it wasn't, your line on xenophobia and racism clearly is.
That's pretty standard for tj, wouldn't worry about it.
Anyone not seeing this rhetoric through the prism of internal politics is missing a lot of the noise.
Yes it will have consequences longer term but a huge amount of this is directly related to the upcoming election.
Guardian reporting that AUS approached UK before US…
Also reporting
The timing is also a source of tension: France had been encouraging the European Union to adopt a “very, very active” Indo-Pacific policy.
And the idea that France wouldn’t have done the same given the opportunity is laughable.
they would have shafted the US/UK in a heartbeat.
Lovely displays of xenophobia here
We had to do it to the nasty french because they would have done it to us
ie look what you made me do now
Lovely displays of xenophobia here
We had to do it to the nasty french because they would have done it to us
ie look what you made me do now
You really can't help over egging the pudding can you
It's not xenophobia to say a country would terminate a deal that wasn't in it's national interests
It's not xenophobia to enable a third country develop a better solution for its national security
It's obvious that the Aussies don't need to import any crocs.
xenophobia
an aversion or hostility to, disdain for, or fear of foreigners, people from different cultures, or strangers:
Exactly what some on this thread are doing
Its a sign of how debased political debate in this country has become that these right wingers deny that they are xenophobic when its clear they are
Or they came up with an excuse for a two tier response because they value UK cooperation?
Yeah, right. Global Britain. World superpower. Can't even wipe it's own arse.
For comedy value here is an Australian senator getting hopelessly confused about the decision to order the French submarine
Its a sign of how debased political debate in this country has become that these right wingers deny that they are xenophobic when its clear they are
There's some parable about a log and a speck that comes to mind here........
Yeah, right. Global Britain. World superpower. Can’t even wipe it’s own arse.
Can anyone "wipe their own arse" these days?
It's Pauline Hanson. Imagine the love child of Nigel Farage and Sarah Palin, but with neither's intellect or guile.
I did rather laugh at the clip of Hansen. a really nasty mix of racist and dimwitted
Good God, Pauline Hanson is a bit of a thicko isn't she.
Hanson: "Is it true that pumpjets can only stay under water for 20 minutes?"
Admiral: No Senator, I do not know what you're referring to about pumpjet submarines only remaining underwater for 20 minutes. (rolls eyes)
So Aus decide the security in the Pacific is going to need a Better deterrent than the one they thought they needed. They go off shopping again as the parameters have changed since they last looked about. Look at an offer from two existing allies with a tried and tested offering and decide that’s a goer. The french option was probably overlooked from the start as they didn’t like the deal they had with the previous offer. They did this quietly as it’s never a great way to do a national security / arms deal in public.
Now I’m sure they were met with open arms from the US / UK delegation but that is hardly surprising. What were they supposed to do? say sorry not talking to you Bruce you’ve got to speak to the French.
I thing it’s in all of our interests that Aus have a good deterrent.
The deterioration that has us operating in the Sahel providing critical capabilities to the French, putting UK lives risk every day……
Yes. HTH
Really cant see why you'd view that as binary tbh, working relationships can improve and degrade frequently without resorting to on/off. Bit of a weird way of viewing the world if you ask me.
Do I think itll have a major long term impact, no, but only because I view it as one thing among many. I'm fully expecting a general drift away from Europe for a while now.
Let me be clear, Australia is not seeking to acquire newkiller weapons, or establish a civil newkiller capability and we will continue to meet all our newkiller non-proliferation obligations
So much for newkiller war. But the big Anglo Alliance is also a great media vehicle to ‘stick it to the Chinese and the French/EU’, all in one feel swoop.
What did Andrew Neil say? To paraphrase: ‘Big Chinese check books were/are funding our ‘remainer’ universities, trying to get us to see through Chinese eyes…’
thols2 - that was obvious - its a calculated snub. " we don't care enough about you to take action"
thols2 – that was obvious – its a calculated snub. ” we don’t care enough about you to take action”
This is like Schrödinger's relationship, it's massive damage to a key alliance and close working on strategic issues, and at the same time they don't really care about the UK
Yes its further serious damage to a strained relationship and yes its a deliberate snub to Johnson - probably too subtle for him as it seems to be to you
The UK is now seen as a minor annoyance to be ignored not a useful partner