[Closed] Attention Motorcyclists...

I quite enjoy trying to keep of with bikes through the twisties. They just leave me for dead anytime the road straightens though.

Fast riders don't bother me at all, on A-roads I signal to let them past and marvel as they disappear down the road.

Slow riders can be really frustrating, they boot it in a straight line and hold you up at the next corner and the next corner. You just have to follow them as they do 30mph round 60mph bends.

But why? It's a perfectly reasonable question. Why cop a strop about it?

There's only two things with motorbikes that get my goat. One is cornering over the white line so I have to take evasive action so as not to hit their head and the other is "I can't get past in one go, I'll creep along the queue slotting into spaces and trashing peoples braking distance as I go at each hop, further slowing the cars by forcing people to brake and not giving a damn about anyone but my own progress".

But many are very, very good drivers and I wish them well.

coffeeking -the second of those has no impact upon your journey time at all and does not cause you to brake if done properly

coffeeking -the second of those has no impact upon your journey time at all and does not cause you to brake if done properly

I assure you it does, whether you like to think it or not. If you sneak into the braking space I've left I HAVE to drop back or risk running into you if something happens ahead. This means I use my brakes and then waste my fuel getting back to the position I had once you're gone. It's inconsiderate and dangerous. Why should I be forced to do that just because you want to overtake? You overtake when it's safe to do so, not when you have to _make_ a space to avoid oncoming traffic.

So you have to ease off the throttle for a second. You are still behind the same car after the motorbike has pissed off into the distance, it has not slowed your journey at all.

You are just irked because they can overtake when you cannot.

would you refuse a faster car behind you space to overtake and drop in between you and the car in front?

So you have to ease off the throttle for a second. You are still behind the same car after the motorbike has pissed off into the distance, it has not slowed your journey at all.

You are just irked because they can overtake when you cannot.

would you refuse a faster car behind you space to overtake and drop in between you and the car in front?

stm, as PP points out, max chat in 3rd even on a 600RR will be well in excess of 100mph.
I know this because I glanced down at my speedo the other day, 120mph in 2nd (I was about to change up - didnt want to drop the front, it was a long sliproad 😆 )

Only having a read, cant be bothered to contribute anything sensible to this discussion.

I'm with TJ on this one.

If a motorbike catches me I expect them to overtake and I make a space in front of me for them to slot into. I'll even signal to let them know its clear to overtake. Just common courtesy for someone who can make better progress than me. I'll also do the same if I see someone "on it" in a fast car.

A bike needs a hell of a lot less space than a car to overtake so I just let them get on with it. I can then get on with waiting for my gap to overtake Mr 41miles and hour.

If things go wrong then they do so very quickly, and unfortunately some people pay the ultimate price for the ultimate thrill.

As my dear old Dad (rider since about forever) says 'it'll only go as fast as your right hand lets it, if you ride like a statistic you deserve to become one'

Something that looks fast and silly from a car can often be achieved with relaxed ease on a bike.

QFT

With all due respect people who have not grown up with motorbikes have absolutely no idea what a motorcycle is capable of. It just looks way too fast way and generally way too dangerous from the driver's seat

So you have to ease off the throttle for a second. You are still behind the same car after the motorbike has pissed off into the distance, it has not slowed your journey at all.

You are just irked because they can overtake when you cannot.

Not at all, I don't care if they can do so cleanly and without affecting me. When they pass when traffic is coming and force their way into a gap it pisses me off, yes. It's not a case of letting off the throttle - by them more than halving my space in front I have to brake or any accident where I kill them will be my fault - don't know about your car but mine doesnt slow much when I let off the throttle.

would you refuse a faster car behind you space to overtake and drop in between you and the car in front?

I'd happily have them overtake if they could get past clearly or if I'd left enough car spaces ahead of me to fit an extra person, but this isn't always the case. I'd expect it. If I were in a queue with no extra space between me and the person in front, no I wouldn't expect the car to overtake and pull in - clearly I'd brake if I had to for safety but I don't think it's OK to force your way up a queue by forcing people to brake and make room for you - that's just rude and irresponsible.

I have a very nippy high performance car. If I were to make my way up a traffic queue expecting folk to move back and let me pass there would be hell to pay. My car is more than capable of overtaking most cars on the road, but cutting in in front of people or EXPECTING them to move back is just bad road manners. Bike owners seem to think it's their right and somehow think the "what looks dangerous really isn't" patter works for them where all car drivers are dangerous. Very often these moves scupper my own moves to overtake a car in front of me, meaning I'm then stuck for the next 5 miles waiting for clear visibility and the opportunity to move on.

Regardless of vehicle - if you can complete the move cleanly and without affecting others then go for it, otherwise don't.

Highway code:
162

Before overtaking you should make sure

the road is sufficiently clear ahead
road users are not beginning to overtake you
* there is a suitable gap in front of the road user you plan to overtake

Not force them to make a gap. Overtaking is YOUR choice and YOUR move, not someone elses.

I'll never filter unless I know the layout of the junction that I'm filtering to.

Really? REALLY?
I filter ALL THE TIME. At every single available safe opportunity, without any hesitation whatsoever. The layout of the road has absolutely bugger all to do with it. If there's cars, and a safe gap, I'm in it. Filtering is at least 1/3 of the reason I got into motorcycling in the first place. Why do you even need to know what the junction looks like? You just don't. Look as far ahead as you can see at ALL times and make a decision based on that. If you can't get to the front, stop before you get there. If the traffic starts to move off, look for a gap opening up and slide into it (and wave or nod nicely if anyone lets you in) All it takes is practice. And not much at that.
As TJ will agree, you never need to 'know the road' if you know what you're doing. It makes no difference. 🙂

Why do you think a motorbike should be able to do something that has an impact on other road users?

If overtaking and slotting into a gap on front of you has 'an impact' on you then either you're too close to the car in front or you're not paying attention and haven't seen the bike coming. 🙂

the road is sufficiently clear ahead
road users are not beginning to overtake you
* there is a suitable gap in front of the road user you plan to overtake
Not force them to make a gap. Overtaking is YOUR choice and YOUR move, not someone elses.

OK. FORCE them to make a gap???? If you have to be forced then you are waaaaaay too close to the car in front. You do realise how little space a bike needs, don't you? At, say, 50mph there [i]should[/i] be plenty of room. Loads.

Ball's back in your court I think! 🙂

If overtaking and slotting into a gap on front of you has 'an impact' on you then either you're too close to the car in front or you're not paying attention and haven't seen the bike coming.

It's not a case of letting off the throttle - by them more than halving my space in front I have to brake

Ah yes, I can see it would be annoying if you only leave two bike lengths between you and the car in front.

Very often these moves scupper my own moves to overtake a car in front of me, meaning I'm then stuck for the next 5 miles waiting for clear visibility and the opportunity to move on.

Me thinks this might be the real reason.

When I did the manoeuvre you describe, I didn't pull fully in. Back on to the correct side of the road but still to the right of the car in front. I did this as if it suddenly stopped dead then I'd go passed, not into the back, and also it has no effect on the car behind. That said, a two bite overtake would still be over with very quickly, any inconvenience would only be a matter of seconds. We should all really just relax and get along.

If overtaking and slotting into a gap on front of you has 'an impact' on you then either you're too close to the car in front or you're not paying attention and haven't seen the bike coming.

No, there's no blanket rule that says you must allow a bike to overtake (apart from in many bikers heads) - I will be leaving a space adequate and safe for my own stopping, if you fill part of it you affect me. I will have seen you coming and expect it, and therefore will drop back for safety. It doesn't make it right that you should force me to do so.

Ah yes, I can see it would be annoying if you only leave two bike lengths between you and the car in front.

Not entirely sure where you get two bike lengths from, seems a bit odd and ill-thought out. Normally I leave enough gap to stop and if someone sneaks into the middle I then have to move back to the same gap again AND then the bike often slows down to re-gain their own gap.

Me thinks this might be the real reason.

When I did the manoeuvre you describe, I didn't pull fully in. Back on to the correct side of the road but still to the right of the car in front. I did this as if it suddenly stopped dead then I'd go passed, not into the back, and also it has no effect on the car behind. That said, a two bite overtake would still be over with very quickly, any inconvenience would only be a matter of seconds. We should all really just relax and get along.

Me thinks you should stop attempting to second guess my intentions and reasons for irritation (despite the fact that they're perfectly valid). I don't care how you claim to do it and whether you think all bikers do it that way. They don't. They very often force their way into a space and don't just use the outside of the lane to hover and pass again. You might have better habits but most don't.

And any way, hovering to the right of the lane is still filling the safe space I've left and requires me to drop back for YOUR safety whether your want me to or not.

I have a very nippy high performance car.

But if a motorbike passes me and slots in front I don't mind easing off a touch.

If someone else is going faster than me good luck to them

Coffeeking - when moving up a line of traffic like that I always look for the car that is attempting to overtake and let them go first in the next gap - overtaking them after they have completed their manoeuvre.

If you are not attempting to overtake then you should have more than the minimum braking distance so would not need to brake to let a bike in. Even when attempting to overtake hanging back a bit gives you better sightlines.

When I did the manoeuvre you describe, I didn't pull fully in. Back on to the correct side of the road but still to the right of the car in front. I did this as if it suddenly stopped dead then I'd go passed, not into the back, and also it has no effect on the car behind. That said, a two bite overtake would still be over with very quickly, any inconvenience would only be a matter of seconds. We should all really just relax and get along.

this as well - you leave yourself an escape line up the middle of the road

No, there's no blanket rule that says you must allow a bike to overtake (apart from in many bikers heads) - I will be leaving a space adequate and safe for my own stopping, if you fill part of it you affect me. I will have seen you coming and expect it, and therefore will drop back for safety. It doesn't make it right that you should force me to do so.

So what you are saying is that nobody should overtake YOU, ever, yes? Just because YOU are "forced"* to drop back?

Well, to be frank, you can poke it sunshine, I'm passing (in car or bike) and there's bugger all you can do about it. 🙂

* tabloid style over exaggerated hysterics

Coffeeking - when moving up a line of traffic like that I always look for the car that is attempting to overtake and let them go first in the next gap - overtaking them after they have completed their manoeuvre.

Glad you do, you're not exactly common.

If you are not attempting to overtake then you should have more than the minimum braking distance so would not need to brake to let a bike in. Even when attempting to overtake hanging back a bit gives you better sightlines.

I shouldn't need to have more distance as I should not be put in a position where I have to adapt to other peoples stupidity. Clearly I do have to, but what irritates me is the assumption that I should have to. Please don't lecture me on overtaking, if I'm at a safe braking distance from a vehicle I'm going to overtake I've more than enough vision to see to overtake.

So what you are saying is that nobody should overtake YOU, ever, yes? Just because YOU are "forced"* to drop back?

No, feel free to overtake cleanly. Just don't put me at risk by making me brake and adapt to your shite driving and avoid you, pretty simple and not exactly asking much.

As I say, turn it around and assume I'm in my car. I bazz past you, drift into the safe gap you left hanging on the white line and then pass the next car. I absolutely guarantee 95% of drivers and bike owners would have a whine abuot having me "slot" into the space.

"Slot" doesn't soften it, it's called cutting people up. And suggesting others should be more observant and adapt to you cutting people up doesn't make it right.

I shouldn't need to have more distance as I should not be put in a position where I have to adapt to other peoples stupidity

Right. Now we're getting somewhere. You think overtaking (any overtaking) is stupid.

Please explain why overtaking is stupid.

ou think overtaking (any overtaking) is stupid.

No, not at all - that's you putting words into my mouth. My point was, and always has been, that if you can't overtake me because there is no clear space (maybe I'm planning an overtake, maybe I've just aborted one and I'm waiting for the next safe place), don't attempt to. That's what the law says, that's what common sense says. It's just not what some bike-owning nutters like to hear.

The whole point hinges around the space in front. If there's not one there (for whatever reason) *bike owners try to make one by forcing in and blame the driver for not leaving the god-given space all bikers should be allowed. Nonsense. you adhere to the same rules as I do in a bike. If I come up behind a car and want to overtake but can't because there's 3-4-5 cars in a row and it's too far to see, I don't EXPECT people to move out of my way.

*many, to not generalise.

Right. Now we're getting somewhere. You think overtaking (any overtaking) is stupid.

Please explain why overtaking is stupid.

No PP, I think you'll find he's saying any overtaking when you end up in front of him is stupid 😉

Those who drive with me will be well aware I'm perfectly happy to overtake and to let people overtake, be they car, bike, horse - makes no odds to me, if you can get there faster than me SAFELY then go for it. But don't inconvenience and endanger me in the process, do it properly.

that if you can't overtake me because there is no clear space

But there IS a clear space. You were driving considerately and leaving a reasonable gap to the car in front which has left me ample space to slot into. Thankyou. But this will halve the space you have, so you'll have to drop back a bit to maintain your considerate distance. Is that so hard? No. So we agree then. Lovely. 🙂

if I'm at a safe braking distance from a vehicle I'm going to overtake I've more than enough vision to see to overtake.

Being further back allows you to see farther and thus plan overtakes further ahead. A basic technique of what the police call "making effective progress" 🙂

But there IS a clear space. You were driving considerately and leaving a reasonable gap to the car in front which has left me ample space to slot into. Thankyou. But this will halve the space you have, so you'll have to drop back a bit to maintain your considerate distance. Is that so hard? No. So we agree then. Lovely.

No, I was driving considerately and leaving a reasonable gap in front SO THAT I COULD STOP IF THEY DID, not so you could fit in there. I MAY have chosen to leave more room so you could fit in there, but it's not a given, and it should be obvious, apparently it's not.

Being further back allows you to see farther and thus plan overtakes further ahead. A basic technique of what the police call "making effective progress"

How far do you want to push that? 1/4 mile? Half mile? At what point does this become stupid? At what point do the returns diminish? If I have left a decent stopping distance I have more than sufficient vision to plan and execute an overtake in my quick car. I might need more in the slow diesel as it needs winding up to speed, in which case I'll leave more gap and it'll probably be filled by a tit on an R1 in a nanosecond 😀

edited: Missed my smiley

Maths time

50mph is 73.33 feet per second according to my conversion app

We've all heard of the 2 second rule, yes? I.E. 2 seconds is a good gap to leave when following a car.

So in 2 seconds we cover 146 feet, which is, roundly speaking, 50 yards.

Is it acceptable for me to overtake (car or bike) and pull into that 50 yard gap?

I think it is.

Is it acceptable for me to overtake (car or bike) and pull into that 50 yard gap?

I think it is.

Why is acceptable for your to endanger me by forcably reducing my stopping distance so you can get somewhere quicker?

Its not endangering you at all. 🙄

Why is it not? For the time when you're between me and the car in front I've not got room to stop. You'll die and I'll have a damaged car, injuries and possible injur other folk if I take avoiding action.

No, I was driving considerately and leaving a reasonable gap in front SO THAT I COULD STOP IF THEY DID, not so you could fit in there

So I need your permission, which you grant by leaving more space, to overtake you, yes?

Just so you don't have to save a bit of fuel and back off the gas for a second or two?

I just need to get this clear so I understand, sorry.

So I need your permission, which you grant by leaving more space, to overtake you, yes?

Just so you don't have to save a bit of fuel and back off the gas for a second or two?

I just need to get this clear so I understand, sorry.

Effectively, yes. By being the person behind in the queue, you take responsibility for your overtake. That's the law. If the conditions are not safe (i.e. I've not left room, for whatever reason) you need to wait until it is safe. Of course being a biker you're likely to be impatient and a bit dangerous so you're likely to be angered by the suggestion that someone else might have some reason for not lettign you do whatever you like.

Either way, as the law stands YOU are responsible for your own actions and if your actions put others in danger (by reducing their safe distance) it's not a clean overtake and you're responsible for that reduction in safety. Even if you don't like it and want to argue you've got a halo.

Countless times I've had to sit behind a queue of 5 cars trundling behind a tractor despite plenty of safe overtaking moves. It's frustrating, but I have no right to go forcing my way up the queue by cutting people up and expecting them to deal with it. I have to act like an adult and have a bit of patience, waiting for a safe gap to open up either somewhere in the queue or find a straight where I can overtake all 6 participants.

Why is acceptable for your to endanger me by forcably reducing my stopping distance so you can get somewhere quicker?

If you are only looking at the vehicle directly in front of you, then you aren't looking far enough ahead. You can see past my bike (specifically a bike this time) very easily to the car that was in front of you before. So your safe gap has not changed.

You can also see that I'm not going to be stopping either, unless the car in front of me (same car you're looking at) stops too.
In a car I may block this vision, on a bike I do not.

Gotcha. Checkmate. 🙂

If you are only looking at the vehicle directly in front of you, then you aren't looking far enough ahead. You can see past my bike (specifically a bike this time) very easily to the car that was in front of you before.

I never said I was "only" looking at the vehicle in front, but that's what dictates my safe stopping distance. It's the worst case scenario. If you're looking at the car 3 cars ahead and assuming everyone in between wont slam on you're a danger on the road. My safe gap has changed because someone may still run out in front of you, causing you to stop, and even if they only run out in front of the car in front of you I've now got no leeway if your brakes are better than my own as you're in the gap I was using. I don't see why you can't see this is unsafe. What worries me more is you have a license.

You can also see that I'm not going to be stopping either, unless the car in front of me (same car you're looking at) stops too.
In a car I may block this vision, on a bike I do not.

Gotcha. Checkmate.

Fraid not, the ability to see past you does not give me the right to drive up your arse endangering you. Maybe I'll try that next time, I'll just ignore the bike and pretend it doesn't exist. When you're flattened under my car but I've managed to stop short of the car in front we'll see who's laughing eh?

You really don't think thinks through it seems!

Effectively, yes

I'm now lost for words. As is the other chap in the room with me.

Who's just said, and I quote, "He's a crazy one, isn't he?"

I always wondered about the mentality of people who deliberately pulled across to prevent me from filtering, now I know.

I always move to the left when I see a bike behind me to ease their progress and if anyone overtakes me and for some reason needs to cut back in in front of me I just adjust my speed so that I still have a safe gap in front.. it's just basic driving skills isn't it?

I see the roads as a place that involves a bit of give and take from all users, hence why you might let someone waiting out of a junction despite it being your right of way or let that old dear finish crossing the road instead of running her down because she's not on a puffin crossing.

I would suggest coffeeking that it is really easy just to edge back a fraction (even if you are on cruise control) just to adjust to a reduction in your space in front... afterall if the car in front slows do you slow down too or just plough on at your current speed?? The situation is always changing, you need to be able to adapt to it and generally most bikers have far better observation and planning than the average car driver (a necessity unfortunately).

I'm now lost for words. As is the other chap in the room with me.

There's nothing crazy about what I'm saying, it's a simple extrapolation of the situation. If my road position stops you overtaking, yes you do have to wait for my permission. It doesn't mean I'm thinking "I won't let him past". But I think you know that and are just acting stupid for effect.

I always wondered about the mentality of people who deliberately pulled across to prevent me from filtering, now I know.

Really? Where did you get that from?

I always move to the left when I see a bike behind me to ease their progress and if anyone overtakes me and for some reason needs to cut back in in front of me I just adjust my speed so that I still have a safe gap in front.. it's just basic driving skills isn't it?

Yep, it is. Still doesn't make it right for the bike to force their way in.

I would suggest coffeeking that it is really easy just to edge back a fraction (even if you are on cruise control) just to adjust to a reduction in your space in front... afterall if the car in front slows do you slow down too or just plough on at your current speed?? The situation is always changing, you need to be able to adapt to it and generally most bikers have far better observation and planning than the average car driver (a necessity unfortunately).

I think you're mis-reading my friend. At no point did I say I wouldn't edge back. I just said cutting me up to make progress isn't on or acceptable. But so far I've had two bikers (at least) and a number of car drivers arguing that bikes have the right to cut people up and others should adapt. I'm pretty astounded by this point of view.

The situation is always changing, you need to be able to adapt to it and generally most bikers have far better observation and planning than the average car driver (a necessity unfortunately).

While you might make generalisations, I think you'll find that most motorbike riders don't have any better planning and observation other than that afforded them by being higher up. Regardless of whether that's true or not, of course you need to adapt to the situation changing. No-one ever argued that you should just plough on.

Dear god, I do wonder if some people here can read.

Still doesn't make it right for the bike to force their way in

But that is the same mentality as the person who charges forward to stop someone filtering in because it's "their right of way".

If people like that just chilled out a bit and helped their fellow drivers on whatever means of transport then things would be sooooo much smoother and safer!

cut people up

But that is the same mentality as the person who charges forward to stop someone filtering in because it's "their right of way".

No it's not. Not even close. Please stop jumping to conclusions based on your own biases.

If people like that just chilled out a bit and helped their fellow drivers on whatever means of transport then things would be sooooo much smoother and safer!

If people would stop forcing other people to compensate for their rush, the world would be a better place too. I'm very chilled and cooperative on the road, what I dislike (as I'm sick of pointing out now) is when people force me to adapt through blatent aggressive manouvres.

- this I don't agree with, but cutting someone up is an action that results in them having to take an emergency course of action, not just back off and be a bit miffed that they just filtered back in in front of you.

This is the crux of the matter, in your mind at least, then. I'm never miffed if someone filters in in front of me where there's space. If they make me brake to maintain a safe distance they've cut in too close, too quick. It's cutting in if you fill a safety space and make other drivers take avoiding action.

If people like that just chilled out a bit and helped their fellow drivers on whatever means of transport then things would be sooooo much smoother and safer!