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OR they are terminally gullible/stupid
Shhhh, don't let weeksy hear you saying that, he'll shout at me 🤣
'My mates a qualified tree surgeon and you wouldn’t belive the amount of regulations involved.'
Yet they'll quite happily scam the taxman and society when it suits heir pocket, then drive home moaning about the state of roads, hospitals etc...
Yes but this is what people voted for… or to put it a different way a majority in terms of parliamentary seats were voted where either the electorate knew full well they were voting for the poor supporting the rich OR they are terminally gullible/stupid.
At some point as this carries on, society is going to collapse to some extent or other
That's the same argument made over the centuries, society still hasn't 'collapsed', the poor and rich argument is just a lazy excuse brought out when folk can't be bothered to give a valid defence, it's just more whataboutery.
It's been an interesting read as this, and it's changed my own opinions somewhat. I think this comment sums it up quite nicely:
I think the fact is that everyone is at it to a degree. It’s not black and white. Different people draw the line in different places ( probably just beyond where they themselves sit 😄😁😆)
"Everyone else is doing it" is, as others have said and with sound reason, a pretty lame excuse for doing something that you know is wrong. But there comes a point where taking the moral highground does little more than shaft yourself.
Example. At the old house, most people parked up on the kerb. I hated this, it makes it difficult for people with prams or mobility issues, so I never did it. Net result, my car was sticking out into the road a foot further than everyone else's. After the third overnight hit-and-run write-off, I started parking on the kerb like everyone else.
The law is pretty clear but then the law empowers rich people / companies to set up their financial operations in some tax haven or other and still trade in the UK. The law is an ass, but, it's still the law. It's difficult for the little people to see this sort of thing and to watch MPs claiming work expenses to rebuild the moat on their second home, and then have any moral compunction about getting away with £50 in sales tax slipping through the net on a set of wheels from overseas.
At the start of this thread I was very much in the camp that your (allegedly) tax-dodging builder was little more than a criminal and should pay his taxes like everyone else. Now I'm less sure, and I'm wondering whether part of my initial reaction was in fact "why should he get away with it when I can't" jealousy. Alternatively I save a few quid, he saves a few quid, and any cash-in-hand trading across the country would likely be exponentially more than offset if Starbucks, Amazon, Google, Rees-Mogg et al paid tax on income in the country where they earned it. So where's my moral compass now?
Nothing's ever as simple as it appears, is it.
So where’s my moral compass now?
As I said earlier, a good test of people's moral compass would be if everyone got paid directly in cash with nothing noted on the giving companies books.
How many of us would pay the same amount of tax we are paying via PAYE?
Have to be honest and say that I wouldn't. I would give more to charities and give help to less privileged people but would lower my voluntary tax.
So where’s my moral compass now?
Think this sums it up
I trust no one accepting cash to avoid tax uses the NHS, or roads, or schools etc. They’d be a cakists of the first order if they did. 😉
Also always if offered the “paying with cash?” option, agree it then ask for a receipt to keep your tax returns in order. Costs of working from home etc 😜
We live in a country that kind of accepts that it'll lose tax through evasion such as this, it cost too much in time and effort to police, same with avoidance schemes, i don't get too hung up about it, i just hate listening to whataboutery excuses with the rich, or i spend it on goods that are taxed or whatever, just own what you're doing.
We live in a country that kind of accepts that it’ll lose tax through evasion such as this, it cost too much in time and effort to police
Same as Germany, France, NL, Poland.....
This is not peculiar to the UK.
All adults in Australia have to complete a tax return. The system has become much easier in the last ten years, but most people in Australia seem to pay an accountant to find ways to reduce their tax. Being married to someone that used to teach economics and accountancy to degree level works a bit differently though. Once we received a fine from the tax office for an incorrect return... after several hours on the phone having the system and their errors explained to them they conceded that they'd got it wrong and our fine was returned.
Cougar, are you employed or self employed or a director.(moral compass query coming up)
Employed.
In that case no query but I do thank you for your extra contributions. 😁
See: https://www.tax.org.uk/national-insurance-contributions-nics-an-explainer
I have copied selected parts below
Q. And you pay less if you are self-employed?
Yes, as indicated above, annual earnings of self-employed workers between £9,568 and £50,270 are taxed at 9% for NICs while the employee on an equivalent regular wage is taxed at 12% for NICs. In 2017 then Chancellor Philip Hammond tried to close the gap with an NI rise for the self-employed but performed a U-turn after facing criticism that this would amount to breaking a manifesto pledge.
Those who defend a lower rate for the self-employed generally argue that it reflects a lower entitlement to state benefits for the self-employed, however this differential has reduced in recent years. IFS look at the arguments on pages 38-39 of this note. They conclude that “the difference in entitlements is far too small to justify the current tax advantages.”
Q. Can you reduce your NI bill by incorporating?
Yes. The NIC system is sometimes manipulated by incorporating a business and trading through a company instead of being self-employed. Company directors can minimise their tax burden by paying themselves (as the sole ‘employee’) a wage up to the primary threshold at which employee and employer NICs become liable. As this threshold is below the personal allowance, it also incurs no income tax. This wage can then be deducted from the company’s gross profits, the remainder of which are liable to corporation tax. Post corporation tax profits can then be withdrawn as dividend income for the sole shareholder (the director), with no NICs payable. Dividends are also liable for income tax at lower rates than other types of income and have their own tax-free allowance. Directors can also benefit by retaining profits within the company, paying capital gains tax upon selling it.
The company structure can also be useful for couples as it potentially allows both couples to receive a ‘salary’ free of NICs but with NIC credits from the business (so long as both do some work for the company), so as to potentially provide full state pension entitlement for an otherwise ‘non-working’ partner.
There are, of course, lots of pros-and-cons of trading through a company and an individual’s NIC liability (and qualification for contributory benefits) is just one of many considerations. People incorporate (or not) for a range of reasons, not just tax and NICs, and it would not be fair to categorise those who are influenced by tax as tax avoiders - they are effectively choosing one lot of statutory rules rather than another where the state has left them free to choose, without anything covert or artificial about it.
But for the self employed one man band, there is no sick pay, no holiday pay, no employers pension contributions, no employers NI contributions...
I'm not going to argue it's totally ethical, but let's put this into context...
Chaz and daves lawn mowing business taking the odd cash payment vs..
non-doms, companies like amazon and MPs that take cash for lobbying?
You can hardly expect those at the bottom of the ladder to play by the rules if they're not lead by example, especially if they are not going to be able to put the heating on this winter.