[Closed] Are we getting far too over-sensitive about 'racial' issues?

it serves someone agenda to think that PC dogooders stiflled the investigation of sexual crimes but i dont think it is true

Not so much PC dogooders, more that it's [i]astonishingly[/i] difficult to get a rape conviction in the UK, the more so when the victim can be shown to be somewhat less than a chaste convent schoolgirl, and is unable to give absolute concrete facts due to alcohol/drug intake.

That's the real scandal - the fact that women are treated as second-class citizens by the police and courts when it comes to sexual crimes. Sure, things have got better in the last few decades, but even now, the attrition rate for rape is just 12%. That means the number convicted from alleged offences is about one in eight. The actual conviction rate is just over 50% - so even when the CPS believes is has a solid case, a victim prepared to put herself through the ordeal of court, and unimpeachable evidence, only one in two prosecutions is successful.

This case is particularly shocking (a gang, multiple victims, prostitution), but step back a little and consider that something around 85,000 rapes are reported each year (2006 stats)....meaning that a vast number - maybe 70,000 - of these crimes go unpunished.

Don't just get angry about this case, get angry about the treatment of women as a whole.

And why does religion always get confused with race?

So why mention [i]Muslim[/i] Asians? These men are Asians, certainly, but there's nothing they've done which remotely corresponds to any definition of Muslim that I've ever seen.

Ay right I owe a few apologies but you can say this unchallenged on stw

i didnt say it.
By just calling everyone who has a different view to you racist you do somewhat end the debate.

I'm still loving your copy and paste skills though.

What's shameful is because the BNP were bleating on about [b]A[/b] Muslim Asian gang[s]s[/s] grooming non-Muslim girls for sex, everybody else dismissed it as nothing more than racist lies when it actually turns out they weren't lying

remember that paedo childminding gang from plymouth a couple of years back..?
Does that make all white british women paedos..?
NO

ignent redneck cracker

Binners - I think the racial aspect of this has been downplayed - not becuse the cops are afraid of being called racist but because they are trying [b]NOT[/b](edit) to to give the bnp et al ammuninition.

Clearly is a racial element to it - but its not central the case

Yunki are you able to read. How you've interpreted it, isnt what was written.

So why mention Muslim Asians? These men are Asians, certainly, but there's nothing they've done which remotely corresponds to any definition of Muslim that I've ever seen.

So Catholic priests aren't Catholic then?

Does that make all white british women paedos..?

Where on earth did you step from a discussion about the problem of "Muslim Asian gangs grooming non-Muslim girls for sex" - and there have been several cases, so its not an isolated occurance - to an paralell with him calling [b]all[/b] moslems paedophiles? He didn't, so I think you should apologise

(Though to be fair there's a bit of an issue with that Mohammed bloke supposedly marrying a child, isn't there?)

and yes, the BNP [b]were[/b] bleating on about it, so was Jack Straw, So was Anne Cryer, So were lots and lots of other people - its reactions like Yunki's, calling people rednecks and allegations of racism, that closed down debate and led to this problem being swept under the carpet.

(Though to be fair there's a bit of an issue with that Mohammed bloke supposedly marrying a child, isn't there?)

there is plenty of bollocks in the bible too, i mean its not like many christians are homophobic is it?

So Catholic priests aren't Catholic then?

The Catholic element is absolutely relevant - these are supposedly holy men who have acted in the most hypocritical (and unChristian) manner possible, and the Catholic hierarchy has institutionally covered up their wrongdoings.

Not quite the same as labelling these criminals as "Muslim Asians", is it? Unless you're certain that the linkage is their purported faith or their ethnic origin, of course.

£300.000 pounds the cost to Merseyside Police in proteccting the rapists from the public,while at court.

Then there is the cost of the Criminal Injuries Compensation to be paid to the girls involved, and bed and breakfast for a number of years for the rapists and perverts.

nickf - Why?

its a [b]fact[/b], isn't it?

I can't see anyone suggesting that all moslems are paedophiles, or that all asians are paedophiles

however in this case they were, its a statement of fact, and the judge, who heard all the evidence stated that
[i]
"All of you treated (the victims) as though they were worthless and beyond respect... One of the factors leading to that was the fact that they were not part of your community or religion"[/i]

Also, perhaps of note, perhaps not - one of the perpetrators was "The religious studies teacher at a local mosque"

"All of you treated (the victims) as though they were worthless and beyond respect... One of the factors leading to that was the fact that they were not part of your community or religion"

Tell you what Zulu, why don't you actually tell us what you think? Instead of bleating from the sidelines like some frustrated right-wing cheerleader with hair. Do you agree with the judge?

(I realise that from before, you intimated that you'd experienced some kind of racism hell in your time, but try not to let that colour your opinion here.)

EDIT: Oh, and Wunundred 😀

Darcy - I didn't see and hear all the evidence,none of us did - I'd suggest that the judge is in a better position to comment on what factors played a part than any of us is.

as for what I think - I said before that I've heard tales of this from friends in the Keighley and Bradford area for years, so I'm not at all suprised, and I think its a very sad reflection on the people that should have taken action nothing was done about it sooner.

Avoiding all the personal hatred above and going back to the title.
I would say yes.
If our society is supposed to be one big happy mix then talking race is trivial.
Is it really that important anyway? How much smething costs me is more important than their colour or politics.

Well ain't that typical Zulu 😆

[edited - there's really no point arguing with those who refuse to see]

So, what do you think darcy?

Is it acceptable to not prosecute wrongdoing in the name of maintaining racial harmony?

is it really acceptable if nothing was done to protect these girls, just so that the BNP didn't stir up trouble?

Ay right I owe a few apologies but you can say this unchallenged on stw
i didnt say it.

I never said you said it I said you did not challenge it in my original post followed by
You sure you are attacking the correct attitude here and the one you dislike the most??
Hardly likely to say that if I though you said it.
The use of you was unhelpful as I did not mean you. Still you could have challenged that view twice but you chose to attack me for saying some posts were racist both times.

By just calling everyone who has a different view to you racist you do somewhat end the debate.?

I'm still loving your copy and paste skills though.

So Catholic priests aren't Catholic then?

Nick f an excellent point re rape convictions rates which are truly shocking. When you consider that many go unreported because they know it is unlikely to be proved. I don’t have an answer tbh but it is lamentable

Is it acceptable to not prosecute wrongdoing in the name of maintaining racial harmony?

No.

is it really acceptable if nothing was done to protect these girls, just so that the BNP didn't stir up trouble?

Not evading, but should the "if" be a "that"?

Is it acceptable to not prosecute wrongdoing in the name of maintaining racial harmony?

i could reply with do you think we should prosecute someone with insufficient evidence because of their skin colour?

I just treated the question as if it wasn't weighted...probably a bit naive of me...seeing as it was Zulu-I-may-have-been-the-victim-of-racism-Eleven posting it. 🙂

You forgot to mention their place of origin whilst making that non point

Nope - the comment made was that their actions meant they were not muslim - Read it again

but there's nothing they've done which remotely corresponds to any definition of Muslim that I've ever seen.

To which I replied:

So Catholic priests aren't Catholic then?

No mention of Asian, no mention of white - only that disowning them with "their actions mean they are not muslim" is a rather poor, typical leftie get out, like saying Blair was not really a socialist.

😉

Have you got any actual proof that this is what happened

Just as much proof as you've got to form the opinion that it didn't

it serves someone agenda to think that PC dogooders stiflled the investigation of sexual crimes but i dont think it is true

See that - you're demanding proof that it did happen, but you're quite happy to dismiss the possibility that it happened, despite the equal lack of proof that can be levelled against your own argument!

The answer to [i]Have you got any actual proof that this is what happened[/i] is [i]Have you got any proof that it didn't?[/i]

Z-11 ok you are correct on the first point so mea culpa 😳
I am fairly confident Blair would say he is not a socialist but then again he is not good with the truth so who knows 😉

Have you got any actual proof that this is what happened
Just as much proof as you've got to form the opinion that not

you're demanding proof that it did happen,

but you're quite happy to dismiss the possibility that it happened, despite the equal lack of proof that can be levelled against your own argument!

And the Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre (CEOP) said it was "investigating why there may be a majority of Asians in these particular kinds of offence".

This suggests that there is enough evidence for the CEOP to consider it worth investigating. Hopefully they'll come up with some strategies to reduce the risk to vulnerable girls. They may even answer the "stw" question, but until they report their conclusions it's premature to suggest anything can be proved or disproved on this thread.
It's obvious that big decisions taken in the 2008 inquiries were totally wrong. The IPCC should tell us what caused these mistakes, and also which theories should be discounted. It would be totally wrong to dismiss such possibilities before these investigations.

It was also revealed in court that a 15-year-old victim who became pregnant by one of the defendants went to the police in August 2008.
After the verdicts, GMP and the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) apologised for failing to bring her case to trial following her cry for help.
The Independent Police Complaints Commission is spearheading an investigation into that failed inquiry.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-17989463

If we remove the colour from this its not racially motivated. However I understand these were all white girls that were abused. I also understand though possibly incorrectly that these individuals preyed on white girls because they see them as lower value, unworthy etc.

Now that may be incorrect.

But if you have a white guy attacking a black guy the first thing that is tagged is a hate crime. Now which is worse the sexual aspect or the racist, if any aspect.

Unfortunate there are and will always be racism, however there are over generalisations. Somone who says something once may be considered racist but the context may be similar to calling someone fat etc. Dependent on social circumstance ie how they use the language etc. Does telling a joke about a minority make you racist. Simply by segregating the population demographically is that not racist.

Because you may be a different colour and I have seen this first hand does not preclude racism. Minorities are just as good and bad as the majority.

I wont rule out a racist element but the lilly livered liberal element have made a rod for everyones backs. Some BNP policy is good, however the motivation is not.

Was it religeous? Not classed as a hate crime I believe as statutes rely too much on the colour of your skin. Is north v south as bad as white v black. Yes it is, violence due to difference and intollerance is always bad.

When they have served their sentences will these sad individuals be deported. I very very much doubt it. Why because we have a totally inept government, no difference from Labour in that respect.

But if you have a white guy attacking a black guy the first thing that is tagged is a hate crime.

Because you may be a different colour and I have seen this first hand does not preclude racism.

I wont rule out a racist element but the lilly livered liberal element have made a rod for everyones backs. Some BNP policy is good, however the motivation is not.

JY pulling every post apart because your right and we are wrong.

Yes generalisations, observations. Which is what a lot of the posts here are. So everyone is wrong and you are right.

Try letting people have there say.

But if you have a white guy attacking a black guy the first thing that is tagged is a hate crime.

is it? in every single case? I am pretty sure people of different colours can have a fight without it being racist.

Did I ssay in every case!

Because you may be a different colour and I have seen this first hand does not preclude racism.

has anyone suggested only whites can be racist this is a spurious line trotted out for some reason on these threads.

Spurious line trotted out on these threads? What other threads? Did I suggest that people are only suggesting whites can be racist?

Bad "lilly livered liberal" stuff, defending the indefensible, changing our own culture, even as far as not being able to Christmas and fly our own flag due to "racial" sensetivities, when the only people getting their knickers in a twist are usually councils and "lilly livered liberals"

BNP stuff thats good, limiting imigration, not necessarily in the realms they wish but certainly imposing more greater control. Being able to fly our own flag and celebtrate Christmas.

Anything else or are you off back to the Guardian!

BNP stuff thats good, limiting imigration, not necessarily in the realms they wish but certainly imposing more greater control. Being able to fly our own flag and celebtrate Christmas.

God that is pathetic. "Being able to fly our own flag and celebrate Christmas"..... because of course it's illegal 🙄

And "limiting immigration" has been the policy of every single government I can think of.

There's no such thing as "good stuff" from the BNP.

Yunki are you able to read. How you've interpreted it, isnt what was written.

sorry, you're right.. I got the wrong end of the stick.. 😳

Of course there was a racial element to this - on a couple of levels, this makes sense.

Firstly, it is easier to brand other nationalities/races/language groups as one thing or another when you are in many ways culturally distant from them. How many English men go on Stag Dos to other countries with a known sex industry? If they showed up at a brothel and propositioned a prostitute who answered in their own home town accent, I bet a fair few would find this disturbing, but it is no problem getting beered up and having sex with an Eastern European prostitute because, well, they're all like that aren't they?

Secondly, in Islam there is a very strict culture regarding sex, probably breeding some frustration among some men in those communities who enjoy the 'masculinity' of having a 'little woman' at home, but crave something they deem to be more 'exciting'.

Now blend some genuine evil into the mix and you have your 'motive' right there.

A broader point, though, is one of the blatant criminality - if you view this one case in isolation, then after arrest, you can take the race element out of it - crime is crime, pure and simple. Lock them up and it's a shame we cannot mete out the sort of 'justice' that some of these mens' cultures would prescribe.

However, you then have to come back to the issue of prevention, whatever the potential outcry, if there is a proven correlation between men of a certain ethnicity specifically exploiting children of a different ethnicity, then the police should act with this in mind - prevention of crime is a far better outcome than prosecution of perpetrators.

There is one further issue here - what on earth are girls or boys of the ages in this case doing hanging around the streets at night - and bear in mind we are not talking village streets and evenings, we are talking city streets and early hours of the morning. No one should have to 'learn lessons' like this, but if anything good can come out of this it is that some sets of 'parents' realise that their children are likely to be in danger and do something about it.

Let's hope the perpetrators of this crime rot in this life - and the next.

Those countless westerners that have flocked to the east for decades in search of easy to purchase underage sex.

@deadlydarcy

That's right - 'easier' on the conscience if you view them as 'one of them'. Less likelihood of getting caught by family, friends etc as they're far less likely to cross paths in person.

If you set out with a mindset that a particular group of people are 'worth less' than your own, then it is far 'easier' to perpetrate crimes against them and still look yourself in the mirror. I'm sure we can all think of an example where a people who were told they were 'chosen' could perpetrate, assist or, at best, turn a blind eye to horrendous crimes.

Add in the aforementioned strict society and a lot of criminal pathology and you have the motivation there in front of you.

There are probably a lot of issues surrounding these men (animals) - the standard cycle of lust, action, shame, self-loathing, violence, lust and on it just goes on - it actually makes me feel sick thinking about it - especially when to all extents and purposes they would probably have appeared 'normal' to me (a thirty something male) if I'd got into their cab or whatever.

As a result, I have to have faith in the police that they will act on intelligence and data and allocate resources accordingly - if that data is there and there is a threat. You don't expect to see riots vans on the kerb of a street of old person's bungalows do you? And so it should be with all crime.

That's right - 'easier' on the conscience if you view them as 'one of them'. Less likelihood of getting caught by family, friends etc as they're far less likely to cross paths in person.

🙂 You believe it's their conscience that they're worried about ?

I reckon it's a case of - they think they'll get away with it.

I doubt whether Gary Glitter went all the way to the Far East to engage in his paedophilia for any reason other than he believed it was easier to do it there than in the UK. I don't expect his conscience came into it all.

I think it's a case of there are dirty rotten bastards all over the place and they'll go and do their dirty rotten shit where they think they won't be caught.

Conscience my arse.

Oops, I see ernie's said more or less that anyway.

There is a significant problem for the British ****stani community, there is an over representation amongst recent convictions in the crime of on street grooming, there should be no silence in addressing the issue of race as this is central to the actions of these criminals. They think that white teenage girls are worthless and can be abused without a second thought; it is this sort of behaviour that is bringing shame on our community. I urge the Police and the Councils not to be frightened to address this issue, there is a strong lesson that you cannot ignore race or be over sensitive... "

Mohammed Shafiq, Chief Executive of the Ramadhan Foundation

Sorry why is flying your own flag, or not being able to pathetic. Equally lets all have a Winter festival.

Yes they are silly examples but that the level of intolerance for our own culture. We should embrace our own and other cultures.

However as has been said a crime is a crime here and they have been convicted. Unfortunatly we will never be privvy to the full facts. Was there a racial element, possibly.

Now back to the BNP, have you read their manifesto? They do not have siufficient depth in their manifesto, some good ideas but could they deliver. Like most political parties have some good ideas yet all you see is racism. I wouldnt vote BNP because of the undertones but dont just say they have nothing good to say. One of their key points is zero tolerance on crime, ok so thats a bad thing then?

These people should rot, but not here at our expense, deport them as it should be a priveledge to live here.

As for having faith in the police, its more the justice system. Unfortunately it appears the police were initially let down by the CPS. The world is a flawed place, this infighting will not solve anything and just illustrates our intolerance of each other let alone those more undesireable elements of our society that prey on the weak and vulnerable.

Sorry why is flying your own flag, or not being able to pathetic. Equally lets all have a Winter festival.

Yes they are silly examples .....

So the best you could come up with for "BNP stuff thats good" was silly examples........says it all really.

You believe it's their conscience that they're worried about?

Yes, in a twisted and sick sort of way - not being confronted with 'the type of person' who you might have any sort of empathy with.

Not in the sense that they were remotely bothered about the fact that they were committing horrible crimes, but just as another 'barrier' to not have to worry about.

I think you do have to look to the way criminals can compartmentalise their lives to enable them to commit crime. There are countless examples of people who live 'normal' family lives 95% of the time who are horrendous criminals the remaining 5%. I'm always troubled by the ease with which the media refer to 'the murderer X' and the 'convicted sex offender Y' as though they are some obvious social grouping - they are not - and this is the real danger of simplifying these things - your 'standard' sex offender does not spend all of his (mostly his, I'm afraid) time stalking around public parks in a Mac. Plenty of offenders of whatever ilk would regard themselves as 'different' from the others (as if some sick idea of difference leads to some self-justification).

If the police can recognise more complex patterns of behaviour than simply 'opportunity leads to deed', then they are better armed to prevent crime.

And your point is Zulu?

Oh, you haven't got one. Ah right...as we were then.

i think he is saying they are silly examples because no one of any real political clout has actually suggested they be banned [ not even sure anyone has tbh] and the idea they have is one perpetrated by the right wing in order to make us [ i prefer to say stupid white folk but i am feeling inclusive right now] fear for our culture.
I doubt very much Christmas is British and am fairly sure that it was imported from abroad and probably by foreigners with their foreign ways but I am no biblical exert . In essence there you are arguing against our British Winter druidh festival in favour of some imported foreign muck whilst claiming to british....oh the shame.
The point there is culture always changes be it from within or without. you cannot stop it as British is not some immutable concept.

like most political parties have some good ideas yet all you see is racism.

their beleief in corporal punishment for petty offenders and fixation on PC ness does though.

To this end, BNP crime and justice policy will:

- Free the police and courts from the politically correct straitjacket which is stopping them from doing their jobs properly;
- End the liberal fixation with the “rights” of criminals and replace it with concern for the rights of victims – and the right of innocent people not to become victims;
- Re-introduce corporal punishment for petty criminals and vandals;
- Restore capital punishment for paedophiles, terrorists and murderers as an option for judges in cases where their guilt is proven beyond dispute (such as with DNA or other compelling evidence).

Is the best people can do is cout and paste? Slag everyone off without actually having a point?

Ernie I used thise examples as simple examples without delving into the politic of how policy may differ between parties. Equally decisions being made at a local level without consultation decisions like that are autocratic which does not fit in a democracy. Yet you say thetre is nothing good in the BNP, you would have said exacly the same had i said Greens, Liberal etc. Pick a fight from your armchair without actually having a clue WTF you are talking about.

By the way, please do not confuse the normal meaning of 'conscience' as you or I may perceive it, some people have an extremely maladjusted and screwed up idea of conscience - more as a barrier to be overcome rather than a set of values. These tend to be caused by 'nurture' rather than 'nature'.

Then you have the psychopaths - who clinically have no empathy or conscience (caused by 'nature' and only potentially held in check by 'nuture'), in fact a gene has been identified fairly conclusively as the 'cause' of psychopathy (the so-called Warrior Gene). We are wandering off-topic a bit here, though.

And yes, they are dirty, rotten bastards - the two points are not mutually exclusive. I would put a smiley on, but it doesn't seem appropriate somehow..........

[i]yet all you see is racism.[/i]

ummmmmmm. they're a party (was going say political, but lets be honest here, they're not really) based on hatred. they are racist end of. anything else is a smokescreen to make them seem normal. don't get sucked in.

nickf, those rape stats are ****ing shameful

There's no such thing as "good stuff" from the BNP.

Couldn't agree more Ernie

[i]The BNP is committed to ensuring that natural monopolies — which include the utility companies and the national rail network, be returned to state ownership as the only manner in which the necessary infrastructure investment is possible.[/i]

Left wing scumbags - Glad you've come round to my way of thinking!

Whatever the BNP have to say that is good, is utterly overshadowed by their fundamental, vicious racist standpoint. You can't justify the actions of a rapist because he loves his mum.

As for zero tolerance on crime their leader has convictions.

Only last week the BNP mayoral candidate in Liverpool had to have his front door smashed in by the police because he refused to cooperate with them concerning an investigation into electoral fraud.

You should have known that pingu66, since you live in Liverpool and appear to be interested enough in the BNP to apparently have read their manifesto.

Which brings me to this :

Pick a fight from your armchair without actually having a clue WTF you are talking about.