Tend to agree with yo to a great extent binners but I believe the wish to downplay it in this case is to try to stop it being used by extremist idiots to stir up trouble.
Clearly in this case there is a racial element but its not a huge or central part in it.
Binners - actually it's Redneckist.
"but why highlight their ethnicity?" because they are different to the norm? ie if 80% of the UK population is white, then the men doing this crime are different to the norm, which makes it worthy of note?
Really? I thought it was for inciting racial hatred......if you can give specifics, I'd be interested to read.
I won't post the comments in full here, but if you go to
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/jan/17/thefarright.politics
and read on from
[i]"The police force and elected governors haven't done a damn thing...[/i]
and there's more than enough out there on the web over the allegations that the MP Ann cryer was making ten years ago.
"but why highlight their ethnicity?" because they are different to the norm? ie if 80% of the UK population is white, then the men doing this crime are different to the norm, which makes it worthy of note?
I guess that would be their argument. Not convinced that's all there is to it personally.
Similar thing happened in Derby!
http://www.****/news/article-1333537/Nine-men-Derby-jailed-grooming-100-sex.html
If the colours were reversed in this case (and the many others it seems) then i have a strong belief that the reaction would be entirely different.
It always seems to be the case that it's only ever racist if the criminal is white. 10 white guys beat up a black guy - racially motivated assault. 10 black guys beat up a white guy - simple assault - race seemingly not an issue at all.
This would have been major front page news for weeks if white men were grooming and raping exclusively very young black/asian/muslim girls.
I hope they all get long sentences, it'll be interesting to see what actually happens and how much of those sentences are actually served.
I think the underlying question here is one of "causality vs correlation" (please excuse the noddy application of what I read in freakonomics). Namely:
Did this paedophile ring deliberately target white girls, because they were while, or because they were easy targets.
If it's because they were easy targets, then presumably they are just as vulnerable to white paedophiles as any other, and race "isn't an issue". Maybe this is what the police were refering to, and to be honest is more a reflection of the white community in the area (if such a thing exists) as others have eluded to.
For me, questions about how the group of men came to "cooperate" in the first place is interesting.... and more indicative of whether race is an issue here. Presumably the polce have a working insight of how these rings are formed - would be telling if this group doesn't fit the typical pattern
Mohammed Shafiq, chief executive of The Ramadhan Foundation, said grooming was "a significant problem for the British ****stani community".
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-17996245 ]link - BBC[/url]
Quick ranttete before dinner
Surely we should be discussing why the govt wont publish the NHS risk register as well somewhere on here?
s it getting to the point where the failure of the police in particular to even discuss the racial aspect of this case, probably because they're scared of what it may unleash, is now completely counter-productive to racial harmony?
All along the police and politicians have said there is no racial element to this case. This is patent nonsense to anyone who's got anything between their ears
Eh
Is your basic premise that white people are not sex offenders then?
I await your evidence ?
Perhaps you have proof that their race means they do this offence?
As noted the only report on this is vague as the terms such as grooming are not well defined
The prisons have more white sex offenders than BME as a proportion of each race]. Overall they probably don’t want to discuss it because even erudite posters like yourself with left leaning tendencies and a brain in their head put a racial aspect to these sex crimes therby fueling racism and the BNP /EDL agenda.
No race is immune form sex offences though the modus operandi may differ but that is all there is to it.
This sort of stuff just fuels EDL and other reactionaries to make us think the whites are not safe from the Asians which is misleading and unhelpful
That said there is no doubt that some Asian areas have an issue with this, some white areas have issues with drugs , some eastern European areas have sex trafficking issues and some areas of that there London have gang issues along racial lines
Unless you can prove that race is causal in any of this then the whole argument is pointless
it is their religious views that make them regard "white girls are worthless and can be abused", nothing to do with them being Indian or Pakastani.
WTF are you going on about here you racist fool WTF in their religion says this? You do strike me as a scholar of Islam and I cannot wait for your great insights here. Please stop and think before posting this sort of shit.
You will be telling me next that Catholicism teaches it is ok to sexually abuse children and cover it up 🙄
Moron at best racist at worst....and no one even challenged it ..thi sis why the debates ar enot encouraged as you can say Islam says it is ok to abuse white kids and no one says a word about it. Islam teaches modesty and no sex outside of marriage as it is a sin.
the reality is that the UK is a multicultural VERY segregated society
I will let my Asian friends know your views and we can discuss it together 🙄
It always seems to be the case that it's only ever racist if the criminal is white. 10 white guys beat up a black guy - racially motivated assault. 10 black guys beat up a white guy - simple assault - race seemingly not an issue at all.
I think that this "seems to be the case" because you are a blinkered racist with not much going on upstairs who makes stupid and outlandish points to "support" your racist views [ you started the hyperbole]. It may also be that because the EDL and BNP exist and we dont have similar grouping of asian or Black anti white groups.that some whites may just actually be a bit more prone to racist violence than some non whites.
Well said Junkyard.
I just read the BBC article. Interesting that they did them for Trafficking, not Rape. Guess the view was that rape charges wouldn't stick ? Not even Statutory Rape ? Thats the saddest part about all this.
Unless you can prove that race is [u]causal[/u] in any of this then the whole argument is pointless
Has anyone suggested that it is causal??
A factor, perhaps.
i agree with hels
There were no prosecutions in 2009 because the initial cps lawyer thought the girl wasnt a reliable witness, rather than any racial reasons (fwiw the 1st lawyer was white the 2nd lawyer who did push ahead was asian)
rape convictions are scandalously low and its tragic that these scumbags werent done for rape
"I will let my Asian friends know your views and we can discuss it together"
Yep, I'm up for that, perhaps we can wander round the streets of Bradford and I will show you the streets where the white community stops and the asian one begins and vice versa, or the schools which are predominantly filled with asian schoold kids where the area around is predominantly white.
And, I really hoped somebody else would make this point, and apologies if somebody did and I missed it.
The defendants were identified in news stories as all from ****stan apart from one from Afghanistan. These are not racial groups. I refer you to my first response...
No race is immune form sex offences though the modus operandi may differ but that is all there is to it.
Indeed. And was the point of what I posted earlier.
This sort of stuff just fuels EDL and other reactionaries to make us think the whites are not safe from the Asians which is misleading and unhelpful
Exactly. It plays on the fears and (barely-hidden)prejudices of people
As usual, in debates like this race gets mixed with 'class'/education/culture. On a personal level, I generally get along with and associate with people similar to myself:(fortunate)educated, inquisitive, interested, active people, many of whom have had a wide range of experiences and travelled to interesting places. Nationality, Ethnic background and religious background are irrelevant.
If I was an ignorant person who had never spoken to people of other ethnic backgrounds, was afraid of things that were different and of an unquestioning outlook that meant that I absorbed everything that the tabloid media and loud, bigoted people told me I may have a different viewpoint.
Even if the police thought it were race related, I very much doubt they would say so. If they did, there would be a whole world of aggro and window breaking released.
The UK is a racially segregated and racist country in my book. The very fact that we treat minorities as little groups with "community leaders" shows you that this goes right to the core of how we govern.
We were just out for a wee drive over the moor and passed a sign that said 'Enjoy a Sunday Roast'
it seems that some people have decided to take it in the footballer's sense of the word..
I blame taxi drivers.. which is another thing that the Rochdale shaggers have in common.. but no-one is picking up on that are they.. 🙄
There are scumbags from every demographic, but if you really believe all races view each other as equal you are deluded. Racism is everywhere and I personally believe it is a factor in this case.
Aristotle - Member
[b]No race is immune form sex offences though the modus operandi may differ but that is all there is to it.[/b]Indeed. And was the point of what I posted earlier.
[b]This sort of stuff just fuels EDL and other reactionaries to make us think the whites are not safe from the Asians which is misleading and unhelpful
[/b]
Exactly. It plays on the fears and (barely-hidden)prejudices of people
Aristotle (and JY) +1, but will differ on what follows:
Junkyard - Member
Quick ranttete before dinner...WTF are you going on about here you racist fool...I think that this "seems to be the case" because you are a blinkered racist with not much going on upstairs who makes stupid and outlandish points to "support" your racist views
OK JY you were on a rantette, but your use of racist in this context is unnecessary and unhelpful and goes right back to my first post. This unilateral use of the term and imo incorrect application merely supports those whose racism you and I abhor. You can jump on silly arguments without playing the race card and destroy them will equal force. Over/incorrectly playing the race/sex/age whatever XXX, merely provides ammunition to the bigots who discriminate in the first place....imho, of course!
You don't have to be racist, to recognise that the term racist is often overused and mis-applied especially in the media.
Junkyard, I think you need to take a breath and maybe consider a few apologies. Clearly the race element is worthy of discussion in this case. Its only through discussing things in an open and frank manner that lessons can be learnt. Throwing out accusations at people in a quite vile manner because they dont agree with you is immature and offensive.
I think I've mentioned before, but when I was at high school (nearly 20 years ago now), a lot of the (white) girls in my year were sexually active by the age of 14, and most of them went out with (white) guys who were in their mid-20s to early 30s.
Thought it was creepy then, and still think it's creepy now, but at the time they wouldn't consider having a boyfriend of their own age. They would hang out until 2am with their older boyfriends, drinking cider, smoking both normal cigarrettes and weed, and thinking that they were awesome because of that. I think part of the problem is that for a lot of girls, there's a belief pushed by certain areas of the media that you're only worth something if you're sexually attractive, that affection shown through gifts is more valued than respect - and it's very easy for adult men to exploit that.
I remember my one mate laughing because another friend's boyfriend had tried to persuade her to take part in five way orgy on camera. It was a very odd thing to be talking about whilst trying to study GCSE physics. :s
She said no by the way...
It seems utterly tragic that one of the victims was ignored by the police, allowing this gang to go about their business.
A representative of the Muslim community in Rochdale should give the Pope a bell and ask how best to 'manage' this problem.
All along the police and politicians have said there is no racial element to this case. This is patent nonsense to anyone who's got anything between their ears.
I'm not sure I agree.
The 'victims' weren't chosen [u]because[/u] of their race, they were chosen because of their attitudes...which were brought about by their upbringing. It just so happens that coincidentally the young girls concerned were caucasian.
I think I've mentioned before, but when I was at high school (nearly 20 years ago now), a lot of the (white) girls in my year were sexually active by the age of 14, and most of them went out with (white) guys who were in their mid-20s to early 30s.
I don't think this is anything new, is naturally the case worldwide, and can be easily explained by girls' reaching sexual (and mental) maturity far earlier than boys. Even at the tender age of 11, my youngest is obviously very immature on so many levels compared to his female peers. He gets no end of attention from the ladies, but has no interest in the opposite sex (or indeed the same sex) at all. Bless him.
Double post.
having been forced to get involved in child protection at work issues not so long ago looking at this case seems, aside form the race element, ever so familiar.
why i wonder is everyone (well just about everyone) getting themselves so exercised over the ethnicity of the perpetrators. this sort of stuff is going on in communities all over the country with distressing frequency. the after effects are well documented yet rehabilitation and support (of victims far less offenders)seems to be something that the community at large is happy to ignore a lack of funding on.
and if ethnicity should be discussed maybe we could start with why the (white) police dropped a case concerning (white) girls and it took nazir afzal to pick it up and prosecute it. presumably the bnp and their ilk will be celebrating him.
i applaud the bravery of these victims in coming further, even moreso in the face of the slow response and lack of action from the suthorities. these are inevitably difficult cases but the police should've done better. one wonders that when these victims start appearing with their alcohol and drug problems, self harm issues if the public outcry will be sustained. somehow i doubt it.
there is a minority of men, and it is overwhelmingly men, who will prey on vulnerable girls and boys. those victims will show a disproportionate level of psychological dysfunction and are far more at risk of becoming abusers themselves. breaking that cycle it seems to me is far more difficult but far more beneficial than reactive finger pointing.
i reiterate. what makes this sort of thing distressing is not the fact it is isolated but that it is common
Toasty's post above was by me, by the way, went home at lunch and posted on the laptop. Mr Toast went to a reputable school where the girls were chaste, or at least not getting pregnant left, right and centre. 😛
The problem isn't race. It's religious and cultural attitudes towards women.
Bwaarp... Isn't it comforting to realise that people like that still exist. Honestly there's no hope.
and if ethnicity should be discussed maybe we could start with why the (white) police dropped a case concerning (white) girls and it took nazir afzal to pick it up and prosecute it
This is a very good point - and I think that it feeds into the concerns of a great many people (and that was being exercised by Anne Cryer in Keighley) that there was and is a reluctance by "white middle class" people in positions of responsibility to take action where action could and should have been taken, out of fear of being accused of racism.
Honestly there's no hope.
I think there is.
Most people are on the whole fairly decent, tolerant of others and don't abuse children.
That doesn't sell newspapers though.
The nursery where my niece works they are not allowed to sing baa baa black sheep.
Ann Cryers statement, re the police:
"This is an absolute scandal. They were petrified of being called racist and so reverted to the default of political correctness," she said. "They had a greater fear of being perceived in that light than in dealing with the issues in front of them."
Which all goes back to my original point really
and if ethnicity should be discussed maybe we could start with why the (white) police dropped a case concerning (white) girls and it took nazir afzal to pick it up and prosecute it. presumably the bnp and their ilk will be celebrating him.
Many many wouldn't touch the topic/such case(s) with a shitty stick.
Imagine the stress of someone shouting racism and victimisation etc.
Plus there is the added element that such kids are lost/from the wrong tracks anyway.
Sad all round really.
All along the police and politicians have said there is no racial element to this case. This is patent nonsense to anyone who's got anything between their ears.I'm not sure I agree.
The 'victims' weren't chosen because of their race, they were chosen because of their attitudes...which were brought about by their upbringing. It just so happens that coincidentally the young girls concerned were caucasian.
Surely the "racial" issue is not with the victims but the perpetrators. There is no doubt that in northern cities the grooming on the street of vulnerable girls is overwhelming conducted by ****stani asian men.
To ignor that fact does no service to anyone and ultimately only provides ammunition to the likes of the BNP and EDL.
Someoyne has asked me to post this
Question time is in Oldham tomorrow night.
Just seen on twitter that tickets are available.
Surely the "racial" issue is not with the victims but the perpetrators. There is no doubt that in northern cities the grooming on the street of vulnerable girls is overwhelming conducted by ****stani asian men.
Substitute "taxi drivers" for "****stani asian men" and you have as accurate a statement, but one which is far less emotive.
Substitute "taxi drivers" for "****stani asian men" and you have as accurate a statement, but one which is far less emotive.
Presumably you are not a white taxi driver?
Surely the "racial" issue is not with the victims but the perpetrators.
No, the real "racial" issue is that, initially, those who were supposed to protect these children and investigate/prosecute the offenders did not do their job properly, allegedly because of the race of the perpetrators.
In other news:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-17822473
Presumably you are not a white taxi driver?
No, I'm not. And I'm not trying to imply that all taxi drivers are all rapists, far from it. Just that the majority of the convicted people in this case appear to be taxi drivers or know each other through taxi driving. They are also of Asian ethnicity.
It makes just as much sense (more perhaps) to link them through their occupation as it does to refer to their ethnicity or their faith. As taxi drivers, they have all sorts of excuses for being anywhere, at any time of night. They get access to young, drunk girls. They have transport (obviously).
Yet rather than looking at this (to me, fairly obvious) link, the press are looking at race. Again.
Junkyard, I think you need to take a breath and maybe consider a few apologies.
Ay right I owe a few apologies but you can say this unchallenged on stw
it is their religious views that make them regard "white girls are worthless and can be abused", nothing to do with them being Indian or Pakastani.
You sure you are attacking the correct attitude here and the one you dislike the most??
C
learly the race element is worthy of discussion in this case. Its only through discussing things in an open and frank manner that lessons can be learnt. Throwing out accusations at people in a quite vile manner because they dont agree with you is immature and offensive.
Are you defending that view?
.
I don’t know why you think what I said was vile but that quoted was not . I best not form an opinion on that as that would be immature and offensive?
Opposing racism is immature and offensive oh behave will you.
Elf would be ace on this thread 😥
OK JY you were on a rantette, but your use of racist in this context is unnecessary and unhelpful
Possibly true in that instance[tootall ] but they are on dodgy ground IMHO
you can jump on silly arguments without playing the race card and destroy them will equal force.
I did that as well you chose not to quote it
Over/incorrectly playing the race/sex/age whatever XXX, merely provides ammunition to the bigots who discriminate in the first place....imho, of course!
Not sure it does tbh but it can definitely stifle debate
you don't have to be racist, to recognise that the term racist is often overused and mis-applied especially in the media.
What like PC gone mad and all that? I think the headlines today will in general show the media is still quite happy to play the race card when it is against the dark skinned people but rarely plays it when white folk are doing stuff. I don’t think this [your view]is the case tbh but I accept people think it is.
The problem isn't race. It's religious and cultural attitudes towards women
Re Salwa al Mutairi
Perhaps you could do a critique of the westbro baptism church and assume their message was typical of Americans or Christians or white people?…every race/religion has nutters but that is no reason to give them disproportionate weight or to think their views are typical of the community to which they belong.
Ann Cryers statement, re the police:
"This is an absolute scandal. They were petrified of being called racist and so reverted to the default of political correctness," she said. "They had a greater fear of being perceived in that light than in dealing with the issues in front of them."
Which all goes back to my original point really
But there is no proof the police reason was that she would not be a reliable witness, It plays into people’s perceptions but this does not mean it is true
It’s a funny day when the lefty is defending the institutionally racist police establishment as so PC they were afraid to act due to PC...does this apply to kettling? ..you could not make this up…really you could not
it serves someone agenda to think that PC dogooders stiflled the investigation of sexual crimes but i dont think it is true
What's shameful is because the BNP were bleating on about Muslim Asian gangs grooming non-Muslim girls for sex, everybody else dismissed it as nothing more than racist lies when it actually turns out they weren't lying.
Yes we are getting too hung up on race, the Muslim Asian community should have been given the opportunity to denounce the behaviour of some of their community rather than everyone bury their heads in the sand and deny it happens.
And why does religion always get confused with race?
