[Closed] Are we at the petrol/diesel tipping point for car manufacturers?

The difference is less about petrol/diesel than bigger family wagons needing more torque and being more efficient on longer runs where they tend to be used. You can equally put in a big petrol engine ... it will just burn more fuel.

However there always seems to be the 1-2 options in petrol you just are likely to have to go for a lower trim level as city driving doesn't really benefit in the same way from cruise control and even a big sunroof is a bit debatable in city driving.

Last year I drive one of the Nissan MPV's (hire car in Ibiza) with a small petrol engine.... it fine for short journeys or so long as you didn't need to drive it up a steep hill or actually load stuff in and drive outside towns (or use the AC when going up a steep hill).

Inside towns it was pleasant enough though.... driving round the Island we ended up taking different routes avoiding hills etc. which would be annoying if we did it every day but for a occasional use it was fine.

The OH has just (6mo ago) swapped a big diesel estate for a 2L petrol Honda CRV and 90% of her driving is short trips and about town ... she still can't get used to it's lack of power on longer drives though but perhaps that's partly because she doesn't do many.

Tipping point in favour of diesels you mean ??

The situation has already changed, as of 2020 we won't be able to drive our 2006 diesel into central London (which is something my wife does outside of rush hour for work reasons). Fortunately we also have a petrol car as well. If I were buying a car today to keep for 10 years I would be wary of investing too much in a diesel as it looks like they'll be taxed out of existence, which also means you won't be able to sell it. That's fine if you're spending £10k now and expect to get 100k miles out of it but I would be cautious of buying new unless you're a very high mileage user.

On the other hand petrol estates are very cheap at the moment if you're buying second hand larger (over 2.5 litre) prestige brands and they're safer from the tax repercussions and usually less complicated.

In favour of petrols....I guess what I mean is, are there petrol engines which are as practical as diesel engines for bigger cars? Or are these in the works to be introduced in like 5 years....? Interesting point on spec, Steve.

oafishb - Member
In favour of petrols....I guess what I mean is, are there petrol engines which are as practical as diesel engines for bigger cars? Or are these in the works to be introduced in like 5 years....? Interesting point on spec, Steve.

Practical in what way?

Equalling a diesel's MPG? Probably not quite.

Torque/power? Definitely yes. Look at e.g. the BMW 520i, even the old 2010 model was sub 8 seconds to 60.

If you're buying a car (regardless of size) for short journeys (regardless of location) you should probably buy petrol.

However, as you say, there are very few larger family size petrol cars for sale compared to diesels.

Had the same problem last year. Ended up with a 320i BMW.

oafishb - Member
In favour of petrols....I guess what I mean is, are there petrol engines which are as practical as diesel engines for bigger cars? Or are these in the works to be introduced in like 5 years

'Practical' depends on how you look at it. My current car (a large saloon) is available as a 3l petrol or a 3l diesel. Both similar performance but obviously the mpg of the diesel is higher.

However, for me, it's the fuel cost per mile that's important as that's how my company reimburse the vast majority of my mileage (I have no commute). The company pay IR rates currently of 12ppm for diesel or 21ppm for petrol (because they regard us as having a company car even though it a car allowance, just means I need to claim relief on the difference to 45ppm, anyway...)

Doing the sums on mpg and fuel cost, the diesel engines car will cost 15ppm in fuel to run, but the petrol engine will cost 18ppm. Therefore for me, it's actually more cost effective to run the petrol car, despite consuming more fuel.

Mrs J wanted a bike-carrying capable petrol car last year for short journeys.
Ended up with a petrol Doblo - there were 10 times the number of diesel equivalents for sale.

The problem with buying for 10 years is really that you have no idea what legislation will be and how governments will manipulate the market.

5 years ago they were actively pushing diesels in completely inappropriate use cases... in another 5 years when the present small engined petrol engines are dying there will likely be yet another change and the facts will be again manipulated

I guess what I mean is, are there petrol engines which are as practical as diesel engines for bigger cars?

It really depends on the use ... when we were driving in town the tiny petrol engine was fine... just avoid steep hills when fully loaded (and our local town was reasonably hilly but not too bad) and given it was a hire car we just burned the clutch to get torque when needed. (Mostly one specific junction and the drive of the villa) ... however the missing component was more torque than power... I didn't bother to check but I guess it was a 1.6L or something...

a 2L would be better and a 2.5-3L V6 petrol better again ...even a bigger petrol engine will heat up way faster than a diesel.... my mate had a big Cayanne Petrol and in winter his engine was warmed up in minutes..(just on the drive) . whereas my smaller diesel would still not be properly warmed up after 25 miles on the motorway... that said I could drive 50 miles, park it all day and the engine was still warm come driving home from work... so it would be warmed up to running speed much quicker....

If your milage is really small you can just look at a bigger 2L+ petrol... this seems good in the CRV (which is a smaller MPV) except on long motorway runs... OH still says her 250,000 mile 2.2 diesel was nicer to drive on motorways... I haven't driven it enough to really comment... but given the choice if I was driving into town I'd take her car which is more efficient... she really struggled finding the spec in a petrol though... (she bought a nearly new) and it took a lot more effort finding the car with leather seats (always good with kids) for example than a diesel... and she didn't want a big panoramic sunroof anyway which made it easier... however they exist...you just need to look a bit harder and longer

OP what do you mean by a family car? If you mean traditional 'family' cars like the Ford Focus and VW Golf then they definitely do petrol's.

Anyone who has driven a VAG car with the 2.0 TSI/TFSI is unlikely to have much complaint about torque and power.

Comparing turbo charged diesels to N.A. petrols is Apple's and oranges

Dragon - was thinking more like either large estate or SUV (like X-trail); I must add that I am not a huge fan of SUV's but there's, y'know, some [i]pressure[/i].

Steve - the Honda petrol CRV might be a good shout actually.

Yes.

It's different around the world.

The mass migration to diesel was almost unique to the European market - the regs here which set things like VED, Company Car tax, duty etc were very Co2 centric - which really favoured diesels.

They never really caught on elsewhere, even though in some places like Australia and the US when intercity driving means hours of endless, light traffic freeways which is perfect for them. They were starting to gain some traction in the US but I think the VW thing probably put pay to that - ironically almost there's a bit of cult following for diesels in the US, they tune them for incredible torque and spew massive clouds of black soot for effect.

Anyway, with some cities banning older ones and a greater and greater focus on nitrogen emissions and some of the health concerns around them their days are numbered.

The motor industry is switching towards smaller petrol engines with turbos to make up the short-fall in displacement, which could be good for drivers in the UK - they're perhaps not as frugal as diesels at the thing diesels are good at - namely chugging away at a constant speed, but this is off-set by the lower cost of petrol - our refineries are slightly out of sync with demand so we don't produce enough diesel and produce too much petrol so we import the former (from France mostly) and export the latter which is inefficient.

I've driven a couple of the new 'little petrol' cars and they're perfectly good at what they do - my Wife's 1.2TSI is more than quick enough around town and sits at 80 very happy.

There will no doubt be some 'horror stories' about how these complex little engines that can do 60Mpg and 0-60 in 7 seconds from 999cc (not at the same time of course) when we find out what sort of witchcraft is used to do it and how some 3-letter acronym will fail around 10 years or 100k miles and cost about a grand to fix - there's always one and we'll all moan about these stupid 'unneeded' devices were only put there to ruin our lives.

Well an X-Trail is aimed at a market that want them full of stuff and potentially need to tow things, and value MPG, so naturally diesels will be the preferred option.

There will no doubt be some 'horror stories' about how these complex little engines

There already are. Ford's Ecoboosts have been blowing their engines.

dooosuk - Member
There will no doubt be some 'horror stories' about how these complex little engines
There already are. Ford's Ecoboosts have been blowing their engines.

Are you talking about the problem with the plastic hose cracking that was remedied with a recall a few years back or is this something else?

Are you talking about the problem with the plastic hose cracking that was remedied with a recall a few years back or is this something else?

TBH I can't remember the finer details, just remember reading about it when the MIL's Focus blew (twice - second time within 10 miles of picking it up). Something to do with a temp sensor failing to detect overheating (possibly due to loss of coolant).

I've got 3.6L V6 that shuts down cylinders around town. Kind of wish I'd got the V8. Still less polluting than a diesel.

I love living in the colonies.

The difference is less about petrol/diesel than bigger family wagons needing more torque and being more efficient on longer runs

Ah, this old chestnut again. People don't need more torque, they've got used to diesels that give you all the torque at low rpms then nothing higher up the scale. Torque and towing capability is all about gearing so not an issue at all for a petrol engine. People just need to warn themselves off that lump of torque low down in the rev range, petrol engines can deliver all the torque needed.

Diesels do deliver better mpg, and that may or may not translate into cheaper running costs, but even then that depends on he relative pricing of petrol vs. Diesel - it still takes around 40k miles if buying from new for the diesel car business case to start paying off.

It was the car manufacturers lobbying politicians promising get them clean green diesel technology that lead to the rise in diesel cars...and huge sales for the manufacturers, but they failed to deliver on that promise and petrol is still the cleaner fuel, so no doubt the car manufacturers are winding up their lobbyists again to sell a new generation of hybrids and electric cars to clean up they air they've managed to dirty up with all the diesel cars they've forced into the streets.

OP you should probably take a look at [url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/turbo-petrols-vs-diesel ]this thread from a day or two ago[/url]. Bottom line is you need to drive a new variable geometry turbo petrol back to back with a comparable turbo diesel.

As richmtb points out above some people are comparing generalities they learned about old normally aspirated petrol engines (lack of torque etc) with turbo diesels. Or they are basing their opinions off conventional turbo petrol engines - an old Subaru Impreza or something. In addition to that you have confusion because manufactures use the same terms to describe a 1ltr engine and a 4ltr engine and spreading rumours about "horror stories".

New VGT petrol engines deliver comparable amounts of torque to a diesel of similar displacement from a similar point in the rev range (not identical but comparable), and then you still have increasing bhp past the middle of the rev range - it's a nicer power band imo. Go to a dealerhsip and drive some. Just don't expect the salesmen to have a clue about future legislation.

My local council (London borough) have started charging an extra £10 for anyone who wants a residents parking permit and has a diesel car. It's emissions based, then a straight £10 on top

Our family car is a petrol (a 1.8 turbo engine in a e class estate, it's huge!). Surprisingly fine, pulls kids, dogs, roof box and tow bar rack full of bikes. Mostly used for pootling about locally though

That point about diesels redg before 2006 being banned in london is slightly incorrect, it's a distinction between the Euro 4-5-6 classifications that's the deciding factor..

If you want to be future proof.... get an electric.

However I think you are getting ahead of yourself.

I doubt there will be a sudden crash in values of diesels or a ramping up of costs.

Any cost will hit new sales rather than historical sales. One exception to that might be if you regularly drive in city centres which may quickly introduce charging. And then a charge for petrols will follow a diesel charge, as petrols aren't exactly "clean" either. The 2006 diesel London ban will probably increment to newer cars too.

You know diesels are bad, can you bring yourself to buy one just because it cheaper? But then petrols are only a bit less bad... and electric cars fund despot regimes where the lithium mines are.

Just buy whatever stacks up now with your cash and your conscience. If its worthless in 10 years, who cares, you've had your use out of it.

PS Mrs has a petrol 1.2TSI 104hp 6 speed Golf, does over 55 mpg and just enough power to be mildly entertaining to drive

I would look at the same engine or the 1.4tsi in a Skoda Yeti for something with a bit more room.

Ah, this old chestnut again. People don't need more torque, they've got used to diesels that give you all the torque at low rpms then nothing higher up the scale. Torque and towing capability is all about gearing so not an issue at all for a petrol engine. People just need to warn themselves off that lump of torque low down in the rev range, petrol engines can deliver all the torque needed.

Diesels do deliver better mpg, and that may or may not translate into cheaper running costs, but even then that depends on he relative pricing of petrol vs. Diesel - it still takes around 40k miles if buying from new for the diesel car business case to start paying off.

It was the car manufacturers lobbying politicians promising get them clean green diesel technology that lead to the rise in diesel cars...and huge sales for the manufacturers, but they failed to deliver on that promise and petrol is still the cleaner fuel, so no doubt the car manufacturers are winding up their lobbyists again to sell a new generation of hybrids and electric cars to clean up they air they've managed to dirty up with all the diesel cars they've forced into the streets.

The whole thing is an old chestnut ....
You can't simply just say petrol is cleaner because it all depends on how and where it's being used.
All cars produce pollution - the most is electric but since that pollution takes place somewhere else it's counted as clean... in the same way NoX in towns/cities is definitely bad.... however its a far more local pollutant...

My mother used to have a Fiat 500 which I'm sure produced very little local pollution but a 300 mile motorway trip and it burned a litre of oil.... and about the same volume of fuel (or more) than my big diesel... however manufacturers are not allowed to publish figures outside the legislated ones..and the testing is specifically set up so that 4 hour motorway journeys are specifically not tested but common sense tells me an engine that burns 1L of oil in a 300 mile trip is producing much more pollution on the longish motorway trip than one that burns so little that it never needs topping up between 12500 mile services...

I just got back from Germany yesterday and despite the preponderance of big diesels on the autobahn the air quality is good. Removing (or severely limiting them) from cities then makes sense... one difference is Germany has a functioning train system and we don't... so despite my mothers old car being unsuitable for the journey the alternative is 8+ hours on trains... (that are also more expensive)

Equally the reason we have so many diesels outside their environment is because legislation deliberately lied to the consumers... noone would have paid more for a diesel to be used in school runs had the actual MPG been available (or the requirements for the DPF cycle)... but the testing states the engine should be warmed up first...

Diesel isn't BAD ... it is being used inappropriately ... diesels are definitely inappropriate for mainly town/city use but then small petrols are inappropriate for mainly motorway use ... and if you look at a complete cycle from building the car in the first place the small petrols being used for long journeys is then including the whole environmental cost of creating new cars and destroying old ones....

Even this is skewed as manufacturers make fleet cars and non-fleet cars. So even though the engine may be the same a fleet car will be designed to last longer and hold resale.

When a company is buying/leasing 10,000 cars the lifetime matters... and certain cars are designed mainly for the fleet market... it's not just the engine but the bodywork and suspension is made to last...

I was in Freiburg last week, walking in along the main road east I'd say the air quality has never been as bad in the last 25 years. They probably have some data somewhere on the Net, I might have a dig later.

EV and petrol hybrid are what I hope will be the big sellers in ten years time.

It's not just variable turbos that have helped give petrol engines more low down torque Jimjam. The Renault TCE in my Dacia also has variable valve timing which reduces overlap at low revs and avoids that "coming on the cam" feeling. The engine runs well down to very low revs.

Edukator

It's not just variable turbos that have helped give petrol engines more low down torque Jimjam.

Yeah but we've had vvt since the early 80s and I don't think it's had as big an influence on torque at low rpms. The turbo is the main thing that's giving you nearly 200-Nm per litre below 2000rpm from an engine that would probably have less than half that without it.

I would be looking at the new Mazda engines due on stream next year and wondering if I could hold out until they hit the market myself. Apparently they have a petrol engine running under compression - so pretty much has a blend of characteristics of both a petrol and diesel engine.

Looks very, very interesting - and a decent option whilst waiting for widespread availability of EVs!

I am just in the process of changing my van back to a pickup again having had a couple of issues over the past 18 months... so it's a big old diesel mill for me! That said, since it is company registered and I need something to park my full NCB on before I loose it in January I am looking at something small, light and petrol (with a not so small engine in it)... which will also have to be very, very cheap due to skintness! Plans to perhaps loose the company and go it alone mean maintaining said NCB is kinda important!!!

Thank you, STW hivemind. Great opinions and information, as usual.
I am not surprised by the lack of petrol engines in the area we are looking at, but it makes things a touch harder. I will keep looking. *grumble* I still find the price of newish cars painful *end grumble*
TBH I still drive a 14 year old Toyota Avensis in taxi beige. It refuses to die. Someone actually hailed me down on the street in Bristol the other day, but that a story for another time.

July diesel sales were 20% down on YoY.

Actually quite a good time to buy one for the right customer.

Demand is low, prices dropping and you'll still get 10+ years good service from a well chosen low mileage dealer car.

There dont appear to be selling petrol cars either though so perhaps just a good time to be a buyer whatever youre after.

I drove some wild cammed turbos in the 80s that would barely run below 3000rpm, Jimjam. It's the combination of variable geometry turbos and variable valve timing that's made tubos smooth low down. And coated pistons that don't melt and mapping that means fueling and ignition timing are always optimal... . They're just better, but still noisy, unrefined and lacking in low-down torque compared with an electric motor.

Edukator - Reformed Troll

I drove some wild cammed turbos in the 80s that would barely run below 3000rpm, Jimjam. It's the combination of variable geometry turbos and variable valve timing that's made tubos smooth low down. And coated pistons that don't melt and mapping that means fueling and ignition timing are always optimal... . They're just better, but still noisy, unrefined and lacking in low-down torque compared with an electric motor.

Yes but we've had variable valve timing and alternate firing order camshafts and coated pistons and fixed geomtry turbos all in the same engines and they didn't produce the same amount of torque at low rpms as diesels. Then we had "twin" turbos, sequential turbos, twin scroll turbos etc, but still not the same low end torque available with a vgt.

And there were plenty of vvt afo cars that had annoying or noticeable changeovers depending on the type of car, or the type of driving you were doing. We can reminisce away, and yes it's a confluence of multiple technologies but chief amoung them is the vgt and the way new engines and their management systems are built around them.

I have a petrol berlingo and when it broke down recently I looked at replacing it rather than fixing it (it's fairly old and needed expensive repairs). I couldn't find anything 3-5 years old that wasn't diesel. I decided to fix the one I have in the hope it will last a few more years until more petrols start tricking through.

fingers crossed!

Good man, highg5. There's a realisation in France that the scrapage deals a few years back took a lot of not very polluting small petrol cars off the road and replaced them with NOX and soot spewing diesels.

Riding in traffic it seems to be pre-2007 cars, vans and buses that are the worst polluters.
Some targeted scrapage scheme on those vehicles would seem sensible but I would like to see the subsidy applied only to modern(but not necessarily new) vehicles with low emissions.

Yeah, it does seem that way, High 5. Part of me just thinks wait till more petrols trickle through. I quite liked the look of the Passat estate but, again, no petrols in my search. There was a newish passat hybrid on but that was £34,000. 😯

How much NOx does an SCR diesel actually produce? Real tested stats?

Part of me just thinks wait till more petrols trickle through. I quite liked the look of the Passat estate but, again, no petrols in my search. There was a newish passat hybrid on but that was £34,000.

+1 lots of large estate cars auto trader has not one petrol between 2k & 30k. They either didn;t make them or didn't sell them.

I'm hanging on to my 02 plate for a while longer and will proabably still have to get a smaller car to avoid diesel.

Riding in traffic it seems to be pre-2007 cars, vans and buses that are the worst polluters.

ANyway i too am in the market for a new car.

I want another berlingo/partner/doblo

i also feel that the wifes driving habits have changed in such that she no longer benifits from a diesel now that all long journeys are done in the campervan.

Went to the garage to see what i could see.... got any petrol berlingos/partners on your books - no ? - nation wide ? - no ..... but i can sell you this 1.2 puretech for 17grand...... no you cant.

So ill be sticking with old faithful for a while longer. Just need to hope differential bearings last till i get back.

thomthumb - Member

+1 lots of large estate cars auto trader has not one petrol between 2k & 30k. They either didn;t make them or didn't sell them.

Say what?

How much NOx does an SCR diesel actually produce? Real tested stats?

The real questions though are in what environment ... and how harmful or not is NoX in that specific environment vs other pollutants.

I don't think there is any doubt that NoX is very bad in a town/city nor any doubt that diesels are very inefficient in town driving especially when cold... but how bad is NoX being released on the M6 and how much is being released when the traffic is actually flowing ???

The testing itself specifically prevents the cold diesel scenario ... which is for many the majority of their driving. I rarely use my diesel for under 30 miles... and more often much further ... mostly at home I actually take a bike to go into town etc. (the main exception I can think of being when carrying a bike to the LBS) ...

Testing a pre-warmed engine for 2 miles with less than 2 degrees gradient is never going to test these short in town trips which is where I would expect the amount of NoX to be the most important

you ride around with emissions checking equipment on your bike ?

Yep, eyes, nose and throat.

I dont think they made Passats with petrol engines in recent years. I had a 2.0tdi through work long term and thought it was excellent.

Replaced temporarily with a Captur which was all style no substance and v poor in comparison.

+1 lots of large estate cars auto trader has not one petrol between 2k & 30k. They either didn;t make them or didn't sell them.

I've just found 4,000 petrol estates on [url= https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-search?sort=sponsored&radius=1500&postcode=ol145px&onesearchad=Used&onesearchad=Nearly%20New&onesearchad=New&price-from=2000&price-to=30000&body-type=Estate&fuel-type=Petrol ]Autotrader[/url], which is much fewer than the 24,000 diesels, but still quite a lot.

Here's a nice, sensible petrol [url= http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201707177461286?price-to=8000&body-type=Estate&onesearchad=Used&onesearchad=Nearly%20New&onesearchad=New&fuel-type=Petrol&postcode=ol145px&sort=year-desc&radius=1500&minimum-badge-engine-size=3.0&advertising-location=at_cars&price-from=2000&page=1 ]Passat estate[/url]....

I dont think they made Passat's with petrol engines in recent years. I had a 2.0tdi through work long term and thought it was excellent.

Yeah exactly! So here's the thing: WHEN are they going to start putting petrol engines in for the UK? Surely it's easy just to smash in a 2.0 TSI thingy into it? And the same for all the other manufacturers.

I've just found 4,000 petrol estates on Autotrader, which is much fewer than the 24,000 diesels, but still quite a lot.

Here's a nice, sensible petrol Passat estate....

Loads of those are diesel (from that link)

oafishb

Loads of those are diesel (from that link)

Filter by fuel type = petrol and there's 4075 results.

oafishb - Member

I dont think they made Passat's with petrol engines in recent years. I had a 2.0tdi through work long term and thought it was excellent.

Yeah exactly! So here's the thing: WHEN are they going to start putting petrol engines in for the UK? Surely it's easy just to smash in a 2.0 TSI thingy into it? And the same for all the other manufacturers.

They made a petrol Passat, they just didn't offer them for sale in the uk, although there were other VAG alternatives with petrol engines. I've been saying it for ages but if the government just cut fuel duty on petrol we could have had access to all of the various petrol engines offered by manufacterers the world over.

The government legislated and taxed their way into a hole, and now manufacturers have to come up with work-arounds so they can legislate their way back out the hole.

Even this is skewed as manufacturers make fleet cars and non-fleet cars. So even though the engine may be the same a fleet car will be designed to last longer and hold resale.

Source for this?

We get cars from the Government fleet purchase which is pretty large. They're the same cars as the ones in the dealerships, just mostly silver.

Loads of those are diesel (from that link)

Sorry, link now updated, but as jimjam says, that was for ~29,000 cars, 24k diesels, 4k petrols and a few hybrids/lpg etc.

I'm holding out for a turbo petrol (VW TSI or Ford EcoBoost) but the lack of cars for sale is miniscule.

These offer more power than their traditional counterparts, especially torque, and similar MPGs for the output.

For instance a 1.6 ltr Focus will produce about 115 - 123bhp and a measly 117 ft/lb torque (don't quote me) and £130 tax.

You can get a 1 ltr ecoboost that will procude 125 bhp, more torque and better mpg and £30 tax.

Alternatively the 1.6 ltr ecoboost produces 148 bhp, similar torque to the diesels, same tax as the standard 1.6 focus and similar mpg, but a lot more fun.

oafishb - Member
I dont think they made Passat's with petrol engines in recent years. I had a 2.0tdi through work long term and thought it was excellent.
Yeah exactly! So here's the thing: WHEN are they going to start putting petrol engines in for the UK? Surely it's easy just to smash in a 2.0 TSI thingy into it? And the same for all the other manufacturers.

There has never not been a petrol Passat on sale, if you buy new. The latest ones have the 1.4TSI engine and a Hybrid version based on the Golf GTE.

The last model had everything from a 1.6 to a 3.6 petrol.

Passat is a company car mainstay and diesels are still a lot cheaper on company car tax than petrols.

It's not that they didn't exist, it's just very few people bought them new, or more accurately no fleet managers or company car drivers ordered them because they cost more personally and the stigma of diesel was long gone.

That's why they're not on the second hand market.

The tipping point for NEW cars has passed, but only in the last year or so, if you're buying 5 year old cars or whatever, you'll have to wait until they filter though - it sounds obvious, but you can only buy second-hand what someone else bought new and there were very very few brave souls who bought petrol cars in from 2000 to 2015.

P-Jay - Member

There has never not been a petrol Passat on sale, if you buy new.

That's not correct. When VW launched the B8 Passat range there were no petrol options available for sale in the UK. They introduced a 1.4 tsi petrol over a year later (maybe two).

jimjam - Member
P-Jay - Member
There has never not been a petrol Passat on sale, if you buy new.

That's not correct. When VW launched the B8 Passat range there were no petrol options available for sale in the UK. They introduced a 1.4 tsi petrol over a year later (maybe two).

I won't argue over it because I'm not sure - but I think it launched with the 1.6 and 2.0 FSI petrol engines (and possibly the 3.2 but maybe not) from the old one and replaced those with the 1.4TSI later on.

EDIT: there's a small pile of 1.6 and 2.0 55 plate Passats on Autotrader, the 05 plate ones are the older model.

I've just found 4,000 petrol estates on Autotrader, which is much fewer than the 24,000 diesels, but still quite a lot.

Here's a nice, sensible petrol Passat estate....

passatt is exactly the example i was thinking of.

My numbers are out (was from memory). but filter by petrol estates. lots of old ones <3k. lots of new ones >20k. a handful in the inbetween bracket. half of which are r36/w8 not exactly practical family cars.

Source for this?

We get cars from the Government fleet purchase which is pretty large. They're the same cars as the ones in the dealerships, just mostly silver.

Perhaps I should have worded that differently .. what I meant is that the manufacturers have specific models which are intended as low maintenance and high milage cars. It's not exclusive .. of course the government or any other fleet can buy a Fiesta or a Civic but [b]in general[/b] they buy Mondeo's and Accords. If I'm doing 50k a year and need a service every 10,000 vs 12,500 that makes a lot of difference to a company (not only the cost of service but loss of productivity)

Equally the road tax and other taxes all make a big difference to a fleet (unless I suppose it is government) ... its hardly secret or rocket science... if companies provide a car for high milage they prefer ones that cost the least overall (hence why most local councils do their own MOT's - its not simply the cost of the MOT but taking a vehicle off the road)

They made a petrol Passat, they just didn't offer them for sale in the uk, although there were other VAG alternatives with petrol engines. I've been saying it for ages but if the government just cut fuel duty on petrol we could have had access to all of the various petrol engines offered by manufacterers the world over.

The government legislated and taxed their way into a hole, and now manufacturers have to come up with work-arounds so they can legislate their way back out the hole.

I don't want a petrol engine personally... the amount of driving I do that isn't on motorways or dual carriage ways is minimal... locally I take a bike...

However I agree that the whole mess is the way the government taxed and legislated themselves into this... and now it seems they will tax and legislate themselves into the next mess...

The last tax and legislation mess was million scrapping perfectly good petrol cars to buy diesels to do 10 miles a day... result is NoX in towns and cities... now the knee-jerk reaction is to go completely in the other direction ... the result will be more pollution in terms of CO2 and CO .. (which causes different pollution)

The whole idea of actually making meaningful figures available to consumers seems the only thing they won't do????

Make emissions part of the MOT and subject to roadside checks and the problem is fixed.

That wont happen because the overall pollution levels are worked back theoretically to their source. Hence the present conclusion that only a small proportion of pollution comes from cars.

Change to actual testing and the truth that cars produce the vast majority of pollution becomes obvious and councils/governments have to act against the very people who pay them.

Better to fudge it until we are on electric.

The Diesel obession is somewhat of a European phenomenon. Not the same in the US, Japan or elsewhere in Asia or Middle East. We have been dreadfully mislead about Diesel pollution wise and people are hooked now on the fuel economy.

OP the new Micra looks nice, saw one today for the first time. Follows the trend of small cars getting bigger

The Diesel obession is somewhat of a European phenomenon. Not the same in the US, Japan or elsewhere in Asia or Middle East. We have been dreadfully mislead about Diesel pollution wise and people are hooked now on the fuel economy.

Not exactly. It's long been known that diesels produce much more NOx. And that is the reason they aren't popular in North America. Most Americans don't give a crap about pollution, but the EPA, in an attempt to reduce smog in hot places, placed strict restrictions on NOx. So the cars couldn't be sold after 1997 as the limits were too low.

We were encouraged to buy diesel not as some kind of huge scam, but because they really do use less fuel and emit less CO2. This is important. It's only in the last few years that people have started to measure NOx in cities (and that traffic levels have risen enough) that we've noticed it's a problem.

However the manufacturers have started to address this with SCR, meaning the use of Ad Blue etc to reduce NOx. This really does work, but no-one seems to be talking about that, instead just shouting 'petrol good, diesel bad' over and over again. Likewise, there is some suggestion that small turbo petrols actually produce lots of NOx too. So it's not as simple as you make out Jambalaya.

[url= http://equaindex.com/equa-air-quality-index/ ]Here[/url] is a list of cars independently tested for NOx emissions. Annoyingly it doesn't give actual numbers, but there are diesels in their top category A alongside petrols. So that would suggest that SCR/AdBlue does actually work.

Understood molgrips but it has been a scam imo. I got sucked in and bought a 2.7tdi back in 2007 but I wouod not again. I am trying to buy a used car and it's really hard to find something 5 years old as a Petrol and many of those have (imo) stupid small capacity turbos. It's time for the diesel road tax give away to end.

Understood molgrips but it has been a scam imo. I got sucked in and bought a 2.7tdi back in 2007 but I wouod not again.

I don't think you do quite understand. There HAS been a scam, yes, relating to certain cars. But not all. And not all polluting cars are diesel.

From what I can tell, Selective Catalytic Reduction (SCR) does work and greatly reduces NOx whilst still giving good fuel economy.

I thought it Particulates rather than NOx that made diesel worse than petrol?

Fascinating reading, Molgrips. The latest Euro 6 Fiat 500X is in the worst category but some much older Euro 5 diesels get into the best categories. What is clear is that petrol engines are generally A or B.

We were encouraged to buy diesel not as some kind of huge scam, but because they really do use less fuel and emit less CO2.

Exactly.

Diesel are a 'local' problem, but globally they help reduce global warming. So crudely we have a choice: The Maldives and Bangladesh under water or a few extra asthmatics,children and baby robins having a shorter life expectancy 😕

I thought it Particulates rather than NOx that made diesel worse than petrol?

Hence we have particulate filters. I think I also saw somewhere that the NOX emissions of petrol cars are increasing due to the leaner burn of modern engines?

Particle filters don't stop the finest particles which are the ones that get deepest into the lungs and are the biggest health risk.

Here's a nice, sensible petrol Passat estate....

3.6L 100k on the clock, not a sensible car but I think you knew that 🙂 We need to get back to 2l petrol fuel injected family cars

Diesel has been a scam, it needs to be tested on the road and cars at 5, 10 & 15 years old. I don't believe they "age" well in terms of emissions. The DPFs where a scam too, have friends fleeced for £1000's who bought Diesels who only drive on a motorway once every few months, manufacturers sold vehicles not fit for purpose.

Just read something interesting on Handelsblatt about how much of a mess Audi are in. German manufacturers put nearly all their eggs in the Diesel basket.

The DPFs where a scam too,

I don't see this as a scam. The VMs were told to comply with a certain EU directed emissions standard - so they fitted DPFs to get the particulates down to the legislative limits. The fact that VAG cheated the tests is another issue.

And don't think for one minute that the likes of Bosch and Delphi have shut down all their diesel research. Find a solution that makes a small diesel pollute the same or less than the petrol equivalent and you're going to make a lot of money I guess.

Have they figured out how they are going to deal with the non recyclable elements of the battery yet ?

What is clear is that petrol engines are generally A or B.

Overall yes I was not surprised to see that. It's a shame you can't analyse it by type of engine i.e. SCR diesel vs small turbo petrol.

Diesel has been a scam, it needs to be tested on the road and cars at 5, 10 & 15 years old. I don't believe they "age" well in terms of emissions.

It's true that testing should be more rigorous, as it is for petrols. But generally I don't think you know a lot about cars so I'm going to take your opinion about 'aging' with a puff of smoke.

I thought it Particulates rather than NOx that made diesel worse than petrol?

Not so much. DPFs do work. The problem with those is different - vehicle buyers weren't told about how to look after them at point of sale. Ok so it tells you in the manual, but who reads manuals? They're written by experts after all 😉

We need to get back to 2l petrol fuel injected family cars

I can't agree. The 2.0 petrol NA Passat from my car's generation was good for 35mpg, I'm on 55mpg typical. We'd need to find a lot more petrol from somewhere and find something to do with a lot more CO2.

The real answer is stopping us driving so damn much.

Such as, Trailrat. According to the director of a new recycling plant for lithium batteries in France they recover better than 70% of the lithium. Unlike lead or NiCad, Lithium is not in the EU's most toxic categories so disposal of the untreatable material isn't an issue.

The lithium's not the the issue. It's the cobalt and other materials.

The whole situation is wrong at the moment, I'm just in the process of changing my company car & would love to have a hybrid but the cost of the cars far outweighs any tax benefit there is.

By the time I've paid the extra for the hybrid, which is also likely to cover a decent amount of motorway miles (so need the mpg) paid the additional petrol costs & the tax, the diesel works out at least even over 3 years & in most cases preferable. Also the tax for hybrid company cars rises by a fair amount in year 2 & 3 of ownership, with year 3 just about being to even levels of having the diesel.

if the government really wanted to do something about running cleaner cars, they would target heavy road users & company car drivers, but the incentive just isn't there.

I'd have no issue buying a diesel family car at the moment still either, the majority of company car drivers are still heading for diesels, so it's just not possible for the market to shut down over the next few years until hybrid or electric technology moves on to become more affordable.

We were encouraged to buy diesel not as some kind of huge scam, but because they really do use less fuel and emit less CO2. This is important. It's only in the last few years that people have started to measure NOx in cities (and that traffic levels have risen enough) that we've noticed it's a problem.

However the manufacturers have started to address this with SCR, meaning the use of Ad Blue etc to reduce NOx. This really does work, but no-one seems to be talking about that, instead just shouting 'petrol good, diesel bad' over and over again. Likewise, there is some suggestion that small turbo petrols actually produce lots of NOx too. So it's not as simple as you make out Jambalaya.

Not so much. DPFs do work. The problem with those is different - vehicle buyers weren't told about how to look after them at point of sale. Ok so it tells you in the manual, but who reads manuals? They're written by experts after all

The problem here is people were enticed into buying totally inappropriate cars for what they use the cars for...
This wasn't the manufacturers but the government offering tax breaks/scrapage schemes and lower tax...

NoX is the same problem.... or has become a bigger problem because of this.

I can't agree. The 2.0 petrol NA Passat from my car's generation was good for 35mpg, I'm on 55mpg typical. We'd need to find a lot more petrol from somewhere and find something to do with a lot more CO2.

This sounds crazy ... but is it more crazy than encouraging people to buy diesel for inner city school runs ?
The difference is NoX is local (or the worst part of it is) whereas CO2 is global... you'd need a heck of a lot of CO2 to actually cause any direct damage ... lithium batteries sound great unless you include the damage that's being done by lithium mining and the damage that is about to start on lithium battery disposal..

People in the UK get all upset if someone wants to frac 50 miles from where they live....
but presumably they'd be more than happy to have this at the end of the garden
[img] https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-03c8d9baaf602b58b9f030fc8056843a-c [/img]

Still it's harmless
[img] https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTrxt1aQ6j6MBJmtctk7B0zzOb8kPT-oBHtCyylmgNPXiWKvpzOLA [/img] It's claimed these fish are poisoned by lithium ... but history is full of mass extinctions .. I'm sure they are totally unconnected... the fish just spontaneously all decided to commit suicide together... You'd think that amount of lithium they'd be in a special ward to prevent this..

You forgot to include pics of major oil spill for balance, Steve, along with refinery explosions, oil shale wastelands and so on.

The cobalt is recycled to such a high level that the lithium recycling residue can be used in cement manufacture, Trail rat.

EDit: and as a ex-environment officer I've seen every fish in a river killed by milk and farm slurry in different incidents. Things can be done without making a mess but some people still make a mess.

Anyone changing a car every few years is kidding themselves their doing it for the environment or baby robins. The cleanest car Is the one you have now, the energy expended in its production being far greater than the fuel you will burn in its lifetime.
Diesel has sadly allowed us to buy ever bigger heavier cars that are too fuel inefficient with a petrol engine.
Direct injection patrols are far worse for NOx than their older port injection designs but the DI is a major facilitator of increased fuel efficiency. Further DI petrol is far worse for particulates so you need to fit particulate filters and all the pressure sensors to diagnose a block filter, and more egr to get keep NOx down and reduce the rate the filter fills up at.
Every week on here is someone asking for advice on their next car for a 3,5,7 mile commute FFS use your bike, a bus this is meant to be a cycling forum.
If cyclists wish to drive for such short journeys and see all the energy usage for their next new car as a good choice what hope for mankind when most don't even cycle.
Madness.

Steve - lithium may be being mined badly in some countries, but surely that's the fault of that country's environmental legislation rather than the fact they are mining?

If cyclists wish to drive for such short journeys

My wife isn't a cyclist, nor are my kids. They aren't on this forum.

Not justifying short car journeys, but it's not as simple as you suggest I'm afraid for everyone. Roads are too bad, some people have health problems, etc etc.

My wife isn't a cyclist, nor are my kids. They aren't on this forum.

Not justifying short car journeys, but it's not as simple as you suggest I'm afraid for everyone. [s]Roads are too bad, some[/s] [b]Most[/b] people [s]have health problems[/s] [b]are lazy, selfish[/b], etc etc.

Not a dig at you personally, but in many cases I think this is the issue.

We've made it too easy to travel large distances with minimal effort at minimal cost. People now expect to be able to jump in the car and travel 100 miles in an hour or two and not break a sweat. Our entire modern society is based on the ability to transport people and stuff long distances quickly and easily.

There's pretty much zero danger that's going to change without some catastrophic event occurring, so until then lets just bury our collective heads in the sand and keep driving everywhere. Hopefully legislation and innovation can create enough drive for cleaner energy before we completely and irreversible destroy our world. I'm not optimistic.

I find non cyclists are happy to use bikes as transport if theres decent infrastructure.

The UK's problem is roads are at best unpleasant and just too dangerous. Theres a reasonable chance you will killed then have insult added to injury by being blamed for the incident.

Theres an anti cycling narrative in both traditional and social media and our goverment does nothing about it because a good proportion of them are equally anti cycling.

UK plc makes 94bn a year from the car industry( and more from haulage) some of which finds its way back into the pocket of MP's.
So without wholesale change in political party funding it'll be cars for most people however long the journey.

Well, some interesting points of view in this thread.

Environmental damage and disasters are a symptom of humans quest for transportation, disasters will always happen let's hope they become less and less as humans realise ethically it's abhorrent.
However the realisation is, digging stuff out of the Earth will continue for a very very long time yet.

For the last number of years I've had diesels powering my workday car, in the main because of its efficiency and ease of driving ability. This time around I've chosen a petrol hybrid and pick it up today. Partly chosen for its bent towards environmental issues, partly because it drives similar to my other car, partly because I really like the look and way it drives.. I do wonder when I come to change again in a few years if I'll stay hybrid or not.. shall we have another thread in 24mths ?? Or 36mths ??