olly - grow up. When you've got first hand experience of adopting kids (and judging by your 'handbags' post, I'm figuring you havent), then let's talk sensibly about it. I know I'm getting on my high horse here, but somehow I cant help but take this seriously - or do you think I'm being overly sensitive?
since when has the world been fair?i realise its easier for me to say, my parents worked thier nuts off to get me out of an education system where i was sat in solitary during lessons cause i was too disruptive, and not taught, and put me through a school where they actually gave a flying flunge.
but the world isnt fair.
some people are needed to fill management jobs, science jobs, where as some people are needed to haul bins of rubbish, washup in restraunts and clean hotels.
i hate to say it, but i even suspect that society NEEDs bankers to some extent.fact of the matter is, some jobs are better paid than others, if they wernt, it would be communism. which is great in theorey, but people are greedy and unfair by thier very nature, so it doesnt work.
if your bacon could argue "its not fair" would you set it free rather than eat it?
lifes not fair
All fine and dandy, that's how a capitalist society works, there are winners and losers. BUT it's now got to the point where the winners are winning big time and the losers are lost, a lost part of society. The social or class division in this country has become a gaping chasm. And when I talk about class I'm not talking about how many traditionally see it.
All I'm seeing is those on this thread and elsewhere are those who like it this way, It's very ignorant and a typical class thing to bait those who didn't grow up in the right place or aren't as bright as you.
... not to mention hateful, patronising and insensitive.
It's certainly not meant to be hateful Mitch, and I apologise if my posts offend you. I'm simply quoting cold hard facts to counter others' arguments and hopefully stimulate a bit of debate.
Your experiences don't follow the pattern I mentioned, and I'm forking glad! I hope to god my friends' children are as lucky - I'm sure they'll have all the love and opportunity needed to help them.
**Although I have to admit that I'm using common sense rather than statistics again.
Again, your common sense is misleading you - not all traffic calming is helpful and I know of a couple that have been removed after a period because they caused even more problems than they solved (namely roadside parking which narrowed the roads to slow traffic, but actually left more accidents). You should be wary of what your common sense makes you assume! 🙂
"The richest 1 percent of people in the world receive as much as the bottom 57 percent, or in other words, less than 50 million richest people receive as much as 2.7 billion poor." (Milanovic 2002, p.50)
coffeeking, it is not common sense, it is a superiority complex.
Forking Our Souls - Member
...some friends of mine.......So it's a well-documented phenomenon...
well at last you made me laugh!
And in addition to my last post, both boys are meeting, and in some cases exceeding, their targets in school, so what does that say about 'statistics'?.
It says "they fall on a standard statistical bell curve and are approximately average, possibly slightly above".
FOS - posting that intelligence is hereditary is hardly incisive. A lot of black people live in deprived areas too - does that make black people unitelligent?
"I earn more than most of them and stay in a moderate ex council house "
drug dealer? sorry IGMC
Yes very good speshpaul, you'l be one of those desperate wannabes eh! I work an honest purposeful living with the NHS. Can you say the same?
"The three richest people possess more financial assets than the poorest 10% of the world's population, combined"
Now that, is just crazy.
"Your experiences don't follow the pattern I mentioned, and I'm forking glad! I hope to god my friends' children are as lucky - I'm sure they'll have all the love and opportunity needed to help them."
Fair enough then FOS, and I'm sorry for getting a bit sensitive about this - I just get p**sed off with the whole 'you'll never be any better than the S**t hole you were born and brought up in' thing - I wouldnt accept it as a kid growing up on a council estate in a mining village, and I wont accept it now.
it was actually aimed at FOS, mitch, while i agree with some of his points, for you two/three to turn it to a personal argument, is a bit childish.olly - grow up
although it has just hit me.
its not "poor" people i have a dislike for.
its chavs.
and its proven that some "chavs" make it big and are rolling it.
its also true that some of my cronies, while coming from "middling" backgrounds, have NO income, and havent had income for several years, due to working voluntary, or not being able to get work.
these people can however, be trusted to cross the road without needing thier hands holding, and can be trusted not to rob you.
"It says "they fall on a standard statistical bell curve and are approximately average, possibly slightly above".
And if you're unable to see why I'm taking these comments to heart, you're less of a person than you come across as.
A lot of black people live in deprived areas too - does that make black people unitelligent?
A lot of white people live in Kenya. It doesn't make them good runners.
indeed barnsleymitch - birth potential is surely only harmed by environment, brought up well and taught to think for yourself and find things interesting will bring out the best in anyone (And assuming their parents were not drink/drug abusers while pregnant with them (?)) they have, on average, the same potential as anyone else. But that does suggests that as a child from a deprived and low-educational-aspiration are are likely to be not the brightest tools in the box, on average. No-one is talking datapoints here, but averages.
And if you're unable to see why I'm taking these comments to heart, you're less of a person than you come across as.
Sorry, not intending it to - I'm treating it purely as an exercise in cause and consequence, not meaning it to be personal. I'm fairly used to seperating peoples initial thoughts and assumptions from reality on a day to day basis, I tend to treat things with a mildly "cold" and detatched frame of mind, it allows me to view both sides with equal consideration instead of getting worked up and letting that colour my thoughts.It doesn't make me less of a person though, just wrong in assuming others can take the same position when arguing.
Yes very good speshpaul, you'l be one of those desperate wannabes eh! I work an honest purposeful living with the NHS. Can you say the same?
OMFG!
HIGH
HORSE
[url= http://www.brainskills.co.uk/IsIntelligenceInherited.html ]So although genes don't seem to be the only thing affecting intelligence, their effects do seem to be constant and apparently not overridden by environment. Disappointingly, parenting doesn't seem to have much effect.[/url]
So it's a well-documented phenomenon, no matter where you put these people, statistically, they're never going to achieve as much as the offspring of wealthy parents who are - again, statistically - more intelligent
you gave us an anecdote and then another one. That is not what I call well -documented.
I think you also more accurately mean to say that people with higher academic achievements achieve more materially than those with fewer academic qualifications. This is not the same as intelligence necessarily but shall we save that debate for another time?
Presumably if they have been told to lower their expectations we should stop all this crazy interventionist sh1t we call education then ? I just wonder why all those high achievers send their off spring to private school if it does not make any difference to the end result.
What a shame you value your so called intelligence and yet you lack the simple human traits of compassion and empathy. Without love what hope is there for understanding.
Big hug and kisses
J xxx
please elaborate rather than just hint at your ignorant racist comment ... i asssume you think you can document this then why not take the BITCH testForking Our Souls - MemberA lot of black people live in deprived areas too - does that make black people unitelligent?
A lot of white people live in Kenya. It doesn't make them good runners.
[url= http://www.psychbytes.com/Quizzes/BITCH/Black%20Intelligence%20Test%20of%20Cultural%20Homogeneity.htm ]here[/url]
I liked this quote from you link
Adopted children and their adoptive parents have a "g" correlation of zero
DO you get it?
please elaborate rather than just hint at your ignorant racist comment
How can you call that ignorant or racist? It was meant to be as cryptic and as utterly useless to this debate as ooOOoo's silly - and arguably racist, if we're going to use your yardstick - comment about black people. Incidently, the answer would obviously have been 'no'.
DO you get it?
What's the question?
what are we talking about again?
The question is how quickly can we reach 100 posts? Oh, there we go. 😉
"It doesn't make me less of a person though, just wrong in assuming others can take the same position when arguing."
As i've since tried to explain, I cant remain 'cold' and detached when trying to argue about something that affects me so personally - this is where simply using statistics fails, by not taking into consideration people's emotions and feelings - there's more to life than facts and figures.
Dragging this back to the original subject, I actually have some first hand experience of this. I'm a Chair of Governors at a local primary school, on the road there are 3 schools, a junior, a private school, and the local comprehensive. You can imagine the levels of traffic both pedestrian and motorised, plus walking trains, plus bikes, plus children of all ages, going in all directions. Well, we as schools got together to approach our LA to petition for a) some traffic calming, b) some crossing points (either manned or light controlled), or some sort of one way system during busy times of the day. Long story short, the LA's technical advisor more or less told us that because we were in a reasonably prosperous area with low levels of crime and anti social behaviour (from the kids) the chances of any of those traffic calming measures happening were nil. If we had been from the centre of Corby, Wellingborough, Northampton for instance, one of perhaps even all of them would have been implemented. His stand point for this was some county wide stats showing precisely that road traffic accidents are more likely in deprived areas, and that in leafy little market towns, it's more or less non existent.
Forking Our Souls, is that link meant to be reliable evidence? You clearly don't have a medical background or is meant for us simpletons? There are many variables when it comes to genetics that are not completely understood, children are not clones of their parents. Nature and nurture are widely debated along with social and mental stimulation. So to say the environment does not have effect on genes it does affect intelligence. To say I'm wealthy so my children are intelligent does have some standing but is not always necessarily the case. The social aspects, possible private schooling tutoring and expectations of friends and family all contribute to "success" or being more intelligent. But not all wealthy children are or will be intelligent. So that begs the question if they are of less intelligence should they be appointed a position from their parents standings ie Bankers/stockbrokers to name few or be denounced to a council estate.
Sorry Olly you seem to have missed the drug dealer ex council house comment, funny that eh!
there's more to life than facts and figures
I'd certainly agree with that, and 'life' is the real story behind every statistic. But you cant hide from the fact that statistics do quite accurately represent trends.
I know there are many other factors, from the nature v. nurture argument to more fundamental factors. For example, the eldest of my friends' children (now 9 years old) is noticeably undersized and has very poor teeth compared to her classmates. This isn't due to her genetic makeup, but down to the fact that the physical deprivation in terms of food and nutrients whilst with her natural parents has had a far greater impact on her subsequent development than it has with her younger brother and sister.
Someone posted a flippant, throw-away remark about IQ tests being nonsense because they show that almost half the population are below average. A very funny gag, but that's what statistics do, and whilst Mitch has been lucky/done a very good job with his kids, for every Mitch, there is more than 1 adoptive family that has to face the fact that their kids will sit below the average line.
I can fully understand why this is a sensitive subject to anyone with 1st hand experience, but one person's positive experience shouldn't denigrate sound, well collected statistical data.
Sherry, why waste your time listing all the possible exceptions? I'm intelligent enough to know that statistics are the mean result of lots of information. That includes all those child prodigies born to deprived parents and vice versa.
Do you really think you're onto something when you post silly arguments like that?
BTW, the link was simply the first result when I googled "Is intelligence inherited?"
Anyone who thinks that intelligence is inherited, or can be reliably and objectively measured in an impartial way, needs to read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mismeasure_of_Man
Now, back to the trolling. 🙄
there's more to life than facts and figures
Yes there is but that arguement is often trotted out by people who find the facts and figures don't back their own viewpoint very well.
It looks like we're back to same ol same ol, if you don't like someones arguement play the moral highground card. It really isn't very helpful. Humans aren't particularly rational, disconnected beings so if we want to make sense of our world and understand the mecahnics of it(however complicated) we need some way of doing it objectively, hence statistics. Yes statistics can be abused but using that argument to rubbish all stats is another form of self delusion.
Simple facts are not humans are the same, some will be at the top of the scale, most around the middle and some at the bottom (doesn't matter what the scale is, height, intelligence, rad riding ability), we need to accept that basic fact otherwise all we do is waste lots of society's resource trying to make everyone the same in pursuit of a fairer society. Laudable intentions, flawed method. Accept we have differences and it may not be possible (or even desireable) for everyone to be treated 'fairly'.
As for the nuture vs nature debate, from my experience it is a bit of both, a good upbringing will definitely help but if someone doesn't have the genetics there in the first place there are limits to what can be achieved. of course there will always be examples at either end of the curve.
Forking Our Soul, If you intelligent enough to realise what statistics are why are you making such comments on intellectual data that is not reliable. Data is only as reliable as the source or survey. You really are taking the biscuit by asking if I'm posting silly arguments! Have you looked at some of your previous arrogant selfish comments? Instead of whining about the council estate near you why not do something for a deprived area and try and help it? But that would involve looking past your own noise.
No. That's probably because you, like many other ignorant people, erroneously assume the word "ignorant" to mean lacking in manners rather than it's true dictionary definition which is "uninformed or uneducated".
no, it's because an intelligent person would still be ignorant without education, and a well educated stupid person could know a lot of things without necessarily being able to put that knowledge to use. They are just different things. Could it be that you were the one making erroneous assumptions?
In the UK poverty is generally concentrated in urban/inner city localities.
Traffic is concentrated in urban/innercity localities.
I'd suggest poor people have a higher exposure to traffic. When calculating the rate of accidents what did the original research use as their denominator exposure measure? Probably population (e.g. say 4% of poor people got knocked over, compared to 1% of rich people) in which case its meaningless as a measure of people's ability (for want of a better word) to avoid an accident (which is how the OP seems to be interpreting it).
Instead of whining about the council estate near you why not do something for a deprived area and try and help it?
Jesus Christ Sherry, you take sanctimoniousness to another level.
I've been thinking about this over lunch, and so much is topsy turvey. Is there any doubt that without people willing to sweep our streets, empty our bins, stack shelves, deliver letters, serve counters, operate machines, clean offices and so forth the rest of society would grind to a halt, yet the people doing the jobs are only afforded low status and looked down on just because these jobs are more readily interchangeable than more complex tasks, when in fact we should be admiring their patience and rewarding them for doing stuff many of us couldn't bear for a day, never mind a lifetime. And I for one couldn't blame anyone for chosing instead to claim benefits.
"sherry - Member
"I earn more than most of them and stay in a moderate ex council house "
drug dealer? sorry IGMC
Yes very good speshpaul, you'l be one of those desperate wannabes eh! I work an honest purposeful living with the NHS. Can you say the same?
Sherry dear, get over yourself and get a sense of humor.
"I work an honest purposeful living with the NHS." Whats the view like from up there on your cross?
"I work an honest purposeful living with the NHS."
If you work for the NHS [b]and[/b] earn more than average, what are you? One of those unctuous Trust Managers with your nose in the trough whilst nurses work ridiculous hours for precious little financial reward?
Jesus Christ Sherry, you take sanctimoniousness to another level.
And yet Soaked Pork, you take [i]so many[/i] things onto a completely different level.
Mostly, lower than the gutter .............. and deep into the sewer
I heard this headline on the radio this morning
My immediate -prejudiced- thoughts were:
[b]-More children and more of them playing out on the streets in less-well-off areas.
-The better-off kids may have more 'comfortable' lives, travelling everywhere by car and sitting in the house on electronic games[/b]
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To contribute to the wider debate, we're probably better off than a lot of people, but live in a 'poor area' (albeit in a reasonably nice road) and will be moving house as soon as possible. The amount of litter and general untidiness is very unpleasant, a lot of the locals are rough and I wouldn't willingly send my kids to the local schools.
Yes, people like me contribute to the ghetto-isation of an area, but I'd rather that my family lived somewhere nice if possible
My grandparents all grew up in inner-city slum housing that has since been demoolised, but weren't thick, had a bit of pride in themselves and my family are now not paupers.
A lot of people have been helped out out of squlaor in recent years. It is complex and some people have problems that are difficult to rectify, but the phrase,
"You can take a horse to water, but you can't make it drink" comes to mind when it comes to helping some of the 'less-advantaged'.
Well, following the theme of Brave New World, if you're going to do a boring job it helps to be slow witted, I suppose, but there's no reason to think such people should be denied pleasure and comfort
Forking Our Soul, No I'm not a trust manager are you a suffering nurse? I'm a senior ODP that has done all the rubbish shifts, on calls at 3am and so forth and still do! What do you work as?
I work in the aesthetics and visual order industry.
?
??
speshpaul, I do have a very good sense of humour just not with snotty nosed condescending gits who look down upon people and think there better for some sort of self gratification. My view excellent thanks, I suppose it would be at 6'6". Thanks for asking "DEAR" well done!
Well what does that involve, is it something pretentious?
Well what does that involve
Photocopying I believe.
Shame this has degenerated into personal name calling, there were some important issues coming out.
Photocopying I believe.
Ernest, whilst I can't blame you for jumping on the bandwagon, I'm afraid you're wrong. Again. I don't even own a photocopier. I do, however, own a graphic design and print management company which keeps me occupied nine to five.
So dear you are a scrub nurse then. Still trying to marry a surgeon?
"I do have a very good sense of humour" yes in your own very high self opinion.
"just not with snotty nosed condescending gits who look down upon people and think there better for some sort of self gratification"
Well you started with the "i earn more then them!" stuff. I can't see any comments from me alone those lines.
No mate you really need to get from up yourself. I mean who do you think you are?
I'm afraid you're wrong. Again.
That's me .........always getting it wrong 😐
Of course you could have said "I own a graphic design and print management company" in the first place,
instead of "aesthetics and visual order industry".
I can't imagine why you did that ......
To come back to the OP for a bit, I live in a moderate sized market town in North Wilts. It has mixed employment, the large industrial works replaced by a wide variety of firms, so what was once largely working class is much more varied, and there are mixtures of social housing and private close together. The two main secondary schools are among the best in the country, and I see kids every morning going to school along the same route I take on my bike to get to work. That preamble is to point out that all I see are their uniforms and not where they live. I also see that their skills as pedestrians and cyclists is appalling. The ones on bikes come hurtling out of the garage forecourt straight into the cycle lane without even a cursory glance to see if anything is coming, and the ones on the path walk right on the edge, swinging bags right at the level of my handlebars, stepping off the curb into my path while yakking and listening to mobiles playing tinny pop, they step into the road at junctions without looking to see if there's any traffic coming. And adults aren't much better, sometimes worse because their earphones mean they can't hear my bell. The parents aren't educating their children, and the children go on to bring up equally ignorant kids. The local pram-pushers show just as little sense, yakking on mobiles while small offspring run on ahead straight across road junctions without stopping, then the parent does the same damn thing. Yes, I said pram-pushers, because they are young women, usually with two or more kids, who don't work. How middle class of me. Except I'm not. The problem is total lack of any kind of education, and all the road safety adverts that I remember as a kid myself are conspicuous by their absence. These aren't statistics, these are personal observations made every day around my very mixed neighbourhood.
And adults aren't much better, sometimes worse because their earphones mean they can't hear my bell.
If that's how the population chooses to behave in their own neighbourhood then it behoves you to ride accordingly - you cannot validly claim you didn't know.
The problem is total lack of any kind of education
with an expensive education being such little guarantee of gainful employment can you blame them ?
f that's how the population chooses to behave in their own neighbourhood then it behoves you to ride accordingly - you cannot validly claim you didn't know.
in that case they can't complain when they get hit by a cyclist who was following the rules of the road while they act like a suicidal lemming.
with an expensive education being such little guarantee of gainful employment can you blame them ?
meaning?
I'm talking about being educated in the highway code and correct use thereof. If you wish to selectively missquote for your own purposes, that's entirely your prerogative.
I'm talking about being educated in the highway code and correct use thereof. If you wish to selectively missquote for your own purposes, that's entirely your prerogative.
is that what "The problem is total lack of [b]any kind of education[/b]" means when the previous context is "Yes, I said pram-pushers, because they are young women, usually with two or more kids, who don't work. How middle class of me. Except I'm not." ??
That bit doesn't seem to be about street etiquette...
To come back to the OP for a bit, I live in a moderate sized market town...........................
Blimey, have they banned paragraphs there? 😉
speshpaul, are you having a laugh! Council house drug dealer comment? Short memory I think. So you can use Google, pat on the back. I work in Anaesthetics, scrub and recovery actually "DEAR" and married a surgeon long ago :lol:. I think I'm pretty good actually, thanks for asking little man. "Get from up yourself" as in self recognition? OK I think you have been smoking to many skin flutes and need to pace yourself, good luck.
"I work in Anaesthetics" I rest my case Me'lord.