[Closed] Anyone watching Sky News

I don't read the Daily Mail at all or any other newspaper for that matter on a regular basis, so its rather presumptuous of you to think that. Its common knowledge that Labour have lost control of immigration.

MSP - Member

"Mention immigration on here at your peril as you will be branded xenophobic a bigot or a racist ffs! Are there a lot of Guardian reading public sector worker on here or something."

A lot of us are just able to draw information and conclusions from other sources than the daily mail letters page.

Sources with facts? You can prove anything with facts

Its common knowledge that Labour have lost control of immigration

How so?

I made a presumptuous reply to a presumptuous comment by you irony alert

Its common knowledge that Labour have lost control of immigration.

See that's exactly the kind of unsubstantiated crap that suggests bigotry.

Common knowledge? Based on what?

Mention immigration on here at your peril as you will be branded xenophobic a bigot or a racist ffs! Are there a lot of Guardian reading public sector workers on here.

If you can describe one 'problem' to do with immigration that isn't based on a discriminatory bias towards indigenous white people then I'm all ears. The trouble is, no one likes being called a racist, but if the cap fits...

Put aside the legitimate immigrants who have visas and are working legally in the uk and are contributing to the economy, then focus on the many illegal immigrants who are not dealt with or sent home and start committing crimes and use the human right laws as a loop hole to stay in the uk, so the government has lost control over illegal immigrants and asylum seekers and if British citizens white or from other ethnic origin are unable to get housing as immigrants are being given priority for social housing & jobs that would otherwise be taken by British nationals then a gap appears about the balance of fairness. There is a big shift in population breakdowns in cities of a ratio around 70/30, whilst in some areas it works well, there are many cities were tensions have arisen as a result. There is a problem with immigration in the UK whether you chose to acknowledge it or not. Because you have a concerns about immigration does not make you racist.

many illegal immigrants who are not dealt with or sent home and start committing crimes and use the human right laws as a loop hole to stay in the uk, so the government has lost control over illegal immigrants and asylum seekers and if British citizens white or from other ethnic origin are unable to get housing as immigrants are being given priority for social housing & jobs that would otherwise be taken by British nationals

OK, so where are you getting your facts from about all these asylum seekers who commit crimes and use the human rights laws, and get priority over British people for council houses? Genuinely interested.

British citizens white or from other ethnic origin are unable to get housing as immigrants are being given priority for social housing

No evidence of immigrants being given priority, but there has clearly been a failure of housing policy over the past 30 years. A lack of funding for social housing now means that there is a massive shortfall in the requirements for everyone. And planning policy has pushed the price of housing up beyond affordable levels for everyone, even allowing for the recent falls I expect that a hell of a lot of people could not afford to buy the house they are living in at current market values.

As for jobs, employment legislation has created an employment market based on cheap tempory work, even permanent jobs are so unsecure as to be barely worth describing as a permanent position.

These problems are not caused by immigration, their roots are very much in economic strategies plaid out over the past 30 years, its justz easier to blame the weakest and most vulnerable members of society rather than those with power, money and influence that have actually caused them.

Asylum is a completely different issue to immigration.

bigoted shit like "british jobs for british workers"

Whats bigoted about being concerned about immigration?it doesn't imply racism or that people do not want any immigrants, just that many are concerned about the sheer amount.

What it does imply, is that many people are woefully ignorant of the reality of immigration. The tabloids and BNP, UKIP etc would have people believe that the UK is being 'flooded' by immigrants. That's simply not true. [url= http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=260 ]Real figures show that net migration is actually falling.[/url] So, much of the anti-immigration crap that keeps being spouted is just bigoted ignorance.

I'm certainly no right winger or racist but [b]we[/b] know that [b]we[/b] have a problem with health tourists and [b]we[/b] also know that [b]we're[/b] attracting many undesirable/criminal elements from europe and other places.

😆

Do you have a problem with my last comment talkmade?
Oh, and do you work for the sun newspaper or not?
"we" as in the UK. Should I not count myself as part of the UK and have used "they" instead?
So, do you work for the Sun newspaper?

It's also the issue of immigrant family growth in the UK.

Put aside the legitimate immigrants who have visas and are working legally in the uk and are contributing to the economy, then focus on the many illegal immigrants...

I see so it's illegal immigrants who are the problem. Well as I see it illegal immigrants have 3 options:

1. Go back where they came from. Probably not going to happen considering whatever circumstances brought them here in the first place.

2. Claim asylum on the basis of the circumstances which brought them here. A much more difficult process than the tabloid media would have people believe, which can involve being put in a detention centre, living in a charity run hostel and being banned from working (legally) and claiming benefits.

3. Go underground, work in slave like conditions with no legal protection, spending their entire life hiding from the authorities, and living in slum like conditions or with family/friends.

In either of the scenarios above there's not much scope for either claiming benefits, taking 'our' jobs, or generally leeching off the honest hard working British taxpayer. The 'immigrants' who by popular myth claim 'our' benefits, take 'our' jobs and use 'our' services are probably in most cases either:

1. British with a different ethnic origin to the indigenous white people.
2. Legal immigrants who have official permission to be resident, work visas etc.
3. EU Citizens who have a legally enshrined right to free movement and labour in this country.

So where is this army of immigrants who leech off the benefits system and public services or unfairly take jobs off the hard-working white working class? My guess is they don't exist, and the entire issue is simply a smokescreen for the fact that a lot of people don't like foreigners doing better than them or having a better quality of life. It's all just jealousy.

Tyger, do go on, please....

Are you going to answer the question fred?

Ignore Talky, he's so blinkered that you are wasting your breath.

However.......................

That's simply not true. Real figures show that net migration is actually falling.

Lets see the source of these 'facts' Talkemada. No doubt you will prove them true, even though the government has admitted that it has no idea and can only estimate the real figure. More interestingly and relevant to the actual 'cost' of immigration/emigration, can you provide some info on these 'net' figures as to the qualifications (for want of a better word) of those leaving and those coming to 'work' in the UK.

Lets see the source of these 'facts' Talkemada.

In my post above. Link to the Office for National Statistics website. Probably more accurate than [url= http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/what-is-the-problem ]MigrationWatch[/url] or other xenophobic bullshit websites.

As for being 'binkered'; yeah, right. 'Course I am. How I can only dream of being as enlightened as someone like yourself...

Considering the government & PM manipulate the stats on immigration we may never know the true extent of the numbers of migrants in the UK, & by the way the British population doesn't just consist of whites and I have never eluded to that, the UK is a small island and already short on housing and our infrastructure is struggling to cope with inadequate expensive rail & road networks. We have a lot of young people unable to find work graduates and students who will need employment.

So what your saying is we should have an open border policy to let all in-sundry in regardless of the consequences, these migrants get access to our full NHS system and is an increasing burden to our public purse.

We are still in recession and need to reduce the national deficit not increase the burden, if migrants want to benefit from what the uk has to offer then they should pay more of a contribution towards healthcare and other benefits they may or maynot be entitled to.

It really is good to see you fully back on stream Fred after your graduated return to the forum. Do you have a target date for your next banning and subsequent resurrection/reincarnation or are you just winging it and see how it all pans out ?

Actually, I'd be interested in seeing some figures that can prove immigration is actually harming Britain in any quantifiable way...

allthepies: Can't guarantee anything in this life. Apart from the fact that some folk will get pissed off with what I say. Thank God for Free Speech, eh? 😉

I'm sure that unless I actually break any forum rules, then the mods won't have a problem with me. I've no doubt some folk are probably furiously hitting the 'Complain' button on some of my posts, but hey, can't please everyone.

As for being 'binkered'; yeah, right. 'Course I am. How I can only dream of being as enlightened as someone like yourself...

Enlightened? I asked a question hoping that someone ie. yourself, who is apparently better informed than myself and most of the other 'idiots' on here who dare to question you, would provide an answer.

I can only assume the answer didn't compliment your argument. Why else would you resort to petty sarcasm?

>Apart from the fact that some folk will get pissed off with what I say. Thank God for Free Speech, eh?

Amen brother.

Fred, those figures only go up to 2008, and;
"An estimated 590,000 people arrived to live in the UK in 2008, the second highest figure on record after 596,000 in 2006."
So it's climbing (from the previous year).

For the record, I have no problem with legal immigration as long as the immigrants work given the chance. And they should be given a fair chance.
I have a rather big issue with illegal immigrants.

Fred, I take it you do work for the sun then? Do you feel that you're compromising yourself by remaining in their employment considering that they are supporting the tories?

[b]Actually, I'd be interested in seeing some figures that can prove immigration is actually harming Britain in any quantifiable way...[/b]

Talkemada
Real figures show that net migration is actually falling.

From the very link to ONS provided by talkemada;

An estimated 590,000 people arrived to live in the UK in 2008, the second highest figure on record after 596,000 in 2006

Fred did mention "net" migration though..

Fred

You have been asked several questions to which you have not replied.

You don't really have to repost your rather ridiculous question in bold as you know that a quantifiable answer is not possible, which is probably why you posted it in the first place to try and look clever...... but failed.

[b]Do you work for the Sun ?[/b]

*Sits back, takes a break, has cup of tea*

Mini pork pie, allthepies?

[img] [/img]

What relevance is net migration?
So more Brits are leaving than the previous year? Is that a positive thing?
It specifically mentions that many of these migrants are going into defined jobs, which would suggest they are professional, qualified people. Brilliant.

>What relevance is net migration?

I was only pointing out that you were comparing apples with oranges so to speak 🙂

Trendylefty disclaimer: No offence meant to either said fruit or immigrants, I am not calling you fruit merely using a fruit based analogy.

It specifically mentions that many of these migrants are going into defined jobs, which would suggest they are professional, qualified people.

So what your saying is we should have an open border policy to let all in-sundry in regardless of the consequences

No what I'm saying is that the current immigration system works quite well, and is based on a rational assessment of how we as a society acquire skills and labour which cannot be provided by the indigenous population. Also, the phrase 'all in-sundry' (sic) betrays underlying prejudice by implying that these foreigners can't possibly be as worthy or desirable as those who are already here.

these migrants get access to our full NHS system and is an increasing burden to our public purse.

Which the vast majority pay for through the taxes they pay whilst working and living here. So yes, damn right they should get full access. Again you're implying that immigrants somehow leech off the state, which simply isn't the case.

We are still in recession and need to reduce the national deficit not increase the burden, if migrants want to benefit from what the uk has to offer then they should pay more of a contribution towards healthcare and other benefits they may or maynot be entitled to.

I'll repeat, the vast majority of non-British people who come here pay the same taxes as everyone else, and so should be entitled to the same services as everyone else. The fact that those service may still be inadequate is a different issue completely.

Talky knows that, which is why is he is now being silly in a vain attempt to try and distract from the fact he can't produce a reasoned argument.

No point in bringing your A-game, when you're only playing Sunday league opposition... 😉

Quite right Fred but I would hazard a guess that you never even made the the reserve 11 at school. 😉

I agree with everything dazh says. I also winced at the use of the term "all in-sundry"
It's the immigrants which don't work that cause the problems/resentment IMO. Actually, it's not just the immigrants, it's all of the lazy bastards, the fake disability claimants and benefit cheats of all and any colour or creed. It's still pretty sh1t when people move to the UK specifically to take advantage of the system.

No I was thrown out of the team for hitting another child in the face with the studded side of a football boot...

Seriously, I can't really be too bothered with this 'argument'. No-one's going to actually come up with any proper evidence that immigration is damaging this nation, so I don't see any point in continuing. I could stay and bait the anti-immigration brigade, but that's a bit antagonistic, negative and unproductive really. I could go and dig out all sorts of stats, data and references to info to back up my 'argument', but what's the point really? Will it change people's thinking? I doubt it, as most folk on here are so set in their ways, that they will dig their heels in even though they know they're wrong.

It's still pretty sh1t when people move to the UK specifically to take advantage of the system.

Agreed but not as shit as widespread nasty generalisations and racism against lots of perfectly decent people

[url= http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/word-'bigot'-loses-all-meaning-201004292689/ ]Is it just me that thinks the term bigot is not being used correctly at the moment?[/url]

I understood it to mean extremist hence why it's normally prefixed with racist, or facist, etc.

Agreed but not as shit as widespread nasty generalisations and racism against lots of perfectly decent people

What [i]are[/i] you talking about?

heres a classic case of some made up anti immigrant news.......

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article855857.ece

the report turned out to be completely made up but the myth has entered popular culture

and i bet a few people of the more easily led nature on here will believe it regardless

Yeah. Seriously, what type of ravioli eating person would work for such a rag?

[url= http://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/4788 ]Institute for Fiscal Studies report on EU immigration[/url]

We show that A8 immigrants who arrived after EU enlargement in 2004 and who have at least one year of residence, and are therefore legally eligible to claim benefits, are 59 per cent less likely than natives to receive state benefits or tax credits and 57 per cent less likely to live in social housing. Furthermore, even if A8 immigrants had the same demographic characteristics as natives, they would still be 13 per cent less likely to receive benefits and 29 per cent less likely to live in social housing. We go on to compare the net fiscal contribution of A8 immigrants with that of individuals born in the UK, and find that in each fiscal year since enlargement in 2004, irrespective of the way that the net fiscal contribution is defined, A8 immigrants made a positive contribution to the public finances despite the fact that the UK has been running a budget deficit over the last few years. This is because they have a higher labour force participation rate, pay proportionately more in indirect taxes and make much less use of benefits and public services.

Link to the full paper in the link above.

I've got loads of stuff with more specific breakdowns of effects on education, NHS, etc if people want them?

For clarification;

Here is the full list of the A8 countries:

Czech Republic
Estonia
Hungary
Latvia
Lithuania
Poland
Slovakia
Slovenia

Not exactly overwhelming given that information.

The comment by the old lady was about Eastern European immigrants, was it not?

So which countries produce the bad immigrants?

🙄

[url= http://liberalconspiracy.org/2009/12/02/the-truth-about-immigration-economic-migration ]Lots of numbers to show what horseshit this all is[/url]

So, contrary to what MigrationWatch UK had said in 2002, there was an economic case for ‘large scale inward migration’ – without it the growth in the UK economy would at least have slowed dramatically, if not stopped dead in its tracks. It could even have moved the UK into recession, four years before the crisis in the banking and financial services industry actually tipped the UK over the edge.

To paraphrase Morpheus (The Matrix) the world in which foreign-born workers are taking jobs away from Britain’s white working class communities is the world that’s been pulled over their eyes to blind them to the truth; that despite the UK enjoying a near unprecedented period of sustained economic growth between 1997 and the beginning of 2008, the white working-class economy has spent that entire period in recession, particularly in regards to those sectors of the economy that traditionally supported male workers and their families.

Ha, from "Liberal conspiracy" no less! 😆

Yes the website title is (actually) a joke, but he hasn't just pulled these figures out of his arse, have you read it?

Unity is a brilliant writer, he also does the magnificent Ministry of Truth blog.

Quoting characters from the Matrix - priceless! 😆

Quoting characters from the Matrix - priceless!

Well its certainly a different way of getting the point across, Have you got any?

So far all you have done is try to shoot the messenger.

Must calibrate the 'scope better then 🙂

I have not got a problem with anyone coming here to work. As long as they pay their taxes and get the fair market rate for their labour, which is the whole point of coming here for the people from the A8 countries.

Which, as both things I've posted show, is happening.

Agreed, I have not disputed this.

so indeed tose claiming immigrants are ruining the country are either misinformed or bigots?

I'd prefer to think misinformed. I don't like to think that most of the people complaining (there are a lot!) just plain dislike eastern europeans, rather mislead by freds employer and some other papers.
Branding them bigots, xenophobes etc is over reationary.
It seems some are too liberal with accusations of racism on here IMO. Immigration is a legitimate political topic which the people should be allowed to question in the same way that they can question economic or defence policy.

I don't think anyone is saying immigration shouldn't be debated. The trouble is though that the vast majority (if not all) arguments against immigration are based the idea that British born people should have priority over jobs and public services purely based on their nationality. Which I'm afraid to say is racist. It may well not be the same as going on a NF march and doing nazi salutes, but it's still racist all the same.

I'm all for a debate on immigration based on something other than race/nationality, but I've yet to hear an argument from the anti brigade which isn't based on this prejudice.

I'm a 2nd generation immigrant - I like your women and I love your jobs. I enjoy your benefits and when I crash my bike your NHS is lovely too.

Or more like my mother was a political refugee, she spoke 6 langauges fluently, worked here from day one for the British consulate and contributed more to the UK than a large number of UK born people. Never the less she was often a victim of ignorance and prejudice during her 50 years here.
One thing she often said was "when in Rome" she had her culture and her ways but truly believed England was a fantastic place and integrated well into British life and brough a lot to the Bristish people she met (mostly recipies tbh).

I think most issues around immigration come from a feeling of societies of people who don't want to, or can't join in. Until we find a way to effectively integrate all comers there will always be division and conflict. I think London does this well, I think other places struggle.

The other thing I see is some people complain about "taking our jobs" which to be fair is usually a British employer taking advantage of migrants who are desperate to work and happy to be paid less than their UK conterparts so the actual shitbag is often a Brit. Everyday I talk to people working On HSMP visas being paid much less than the UK born staff in EXACTLY the same role.

I'm not one of those who believe in the whole "british jobs for british people" thing. Employers should be able to employ who they like, free market and all that. However, to call it racist is also wrong IMO.

but truly believed England was a fantastic place and integrated well into British life

* German for Island Monkey there jokey nickname for us

Ear, backander; WTF gave you the idea I work for the Scum? 🙄

I do know a Sun journalist; nice middle -class lad from St Albans actually.

So... has anyone come up with any evidence that immigrants are damaging the nation then?

Kimbers; what that article failed to mention is that the swans had probably been raped by Muslim gypsies first... 🙄

Junkyard, I live in London, England and I'm British...What?

So... has anyone come up with any evidence that immigrants are damaging the nation then?

I didn't claim that they did. I would like to see the financial cost of illegal immigration though.

I didn't claim that they did

So if immigration isn't actually damaging the nation, why the problem with it then? 🙄

I'm more concerned with the Human cost of illegal immigration... 🙁

So if immigration isn't actually damaging the nation, why the problem with it then?

I haven't got a problem with it. As long as the immigrants contribute when given the opportunity.
I have a problem with lazy bastards, not foreign people. If we could get away with getting rid of the obvious workshy serial doleys (foreign or indiginous) then I'd be quite happy.

I haven't got a problem with it.

So why are we even discussing it then?

I'm certainly no right winger or racist [b]but...[/b]

Whats the last quote supposed to mean fred?
Are you telling me that you think I'm racist?

Interestingly, the first result when you search for "costs of illegal immigration uk" is this article:

[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/amnesty-on-illegal-immigrants-is-worth-1636bn-to-uk-472164.html ]The Independent[/url]

Which suggests:

A vast hidden army of illegal immigrants ensures that each day thousands of offices and homes are cleaned, streets are swept and drinks are served in Britain's pubs and clubs.

From London's building sites to farms in East Anglia, and from late-night takeaways to the treacherous sands of Morecambe Bay, they generally fill the jobs deemed too menial or too hazardous by UK nationals. If discovered, they face deportation. But according to a radical new study published today, an amnesty on their status could be worth up to £6bn to the economy.

These are all jobs which need to be done by someone. By using the illegals, the UK effectively loses out in tax. The employers are able to exploit the workers as they have no rights, giving them poor wages and poor conditions. There are no winners.

The employers are the winners, which takes me back to an earlier point, its not imigration thats a problem, its employment law, housing policy etc etc...