[Closed] Anyone remember how the Falklands began?

The problem with the Telegraph article is that Charles Moore essentially gave Gordievsky a platform to rehash accusations that he had made back in 1992 and which resulted in the Sunday Times paying substantial damages to Foot because they were untrue and defamatory. The S Times carried accusations which were not contained within Gordievsky's book (because his publisher's lawyers did not clear them for publication?). At that time, Gordievsky claimed not to have any further revelations about the Labour Party - and yet right after Foot's death, Gordievsky gave what he claimed was additional detail on the same accusations to Charles Moore, who got them published in the Telegraph. There was no explanation of why he hadn't remembered anything of this in the previous years or why he didn't mention it at the time the S Times was being sued. The fact that Foot's death meant that Gordievsky could say what he wanted without any legal consequence (the dead can't sue for defamation) is no coincidence.

Gordievsky is down an alley and his stock-in-trade is consultancy to the misled and gullible (my old boss was involved in a project in Russia on which the client had chosen to engage Gordievsky as an advisor - some of the things he was coming out with were "remarkable") spiced up with the occasional spicy leak/revelation/commentary.

What's more, it's not surprising that Gordievsky and Moore have a relationship when they both have a mutual interest: propagating the view in the pages of the Telegraph that the BBC is a nefarious political plot. Moore was fined for not paying his TV licence because he said the BBC propagated "weird ideology", while Gordievsky says that the BBC is both a crypto-Communist and pro-Kremlin organisation (a pretty remarkable combination...).

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/letters/3618799/The-Daily-Telegraph-letters.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/letters/4176998/Letters-The-cold-snap-was-a-dose-of-reality-like-the-recession-after-the-shirtsleeve-years.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/bbc/7709065/The-BBCs-worst-scandal-lies-in-our-courts.html

You only hav e to compare what the BBC reports with other European channels to know the Beeb does indeed have a "weird ideology". That ideology includes grosly misleading reporting by omission and by giving crdibility to sources they really shouldn't if they are being as objective as they claim to be.

The lead up to the Iraq war was a case in point; TF1 and Eins Extra, the channels I watch most, were giving lots of time and credibility to Hans Blix while the Beeb was dishing out Blair's lies. Dissenting voices were portrayed as cranks or pacifist ramblings.

Socialist and communist parties, and union movements throughtout Europe had close relations with communist Russia trhoughout the cold war. The communist model was still seen as a viable alternative and my English teacher wore a red tie. At Longbridge where I worked briefly they spoke a language that I can only describe as "commie speak" where the comrades were so intent on breaking the capitalist machine they felt slaves to that they lost sight of the fact it also fed them.

The unions had lost sight of their role as means to create economic distortions in their favour and simply become pawns to political dogma. The unions funded Labour and the likes of Foot abused the power the unions gave them to further political ideals rather than the well being of the workers.

I have to admit Edukator, I was quite interested in what you had to say when I read this ........

You only hav e to compare what the BBC reports with other European channels to know the Beeb does indeed have a "weird ideology". That ideology includes grosly misleading reporting by omission and by giving crdibility to sources they really shouldn't if they are being as objective as they claim to be

But then I read this...................

Socialist and communist parties, and union movements throughtout Europe had close relations with communist Russia trhoughout the cold war. The communist model was still seen as a viable alternative and my English teacher wore a red tie. At Longbridge where I worked briefly they spoke a language that I can only describe as "commie speak" where the comrades were so intent on breaking the capitalist machine they felt slaves to that they lost sight of the fact it also fed them.

And realised that the weird ideology, grossly misleading reporting by omission and the failure to be objective were something that you seem to specialise in yourself.

Really, I'm going to keep an eye out for all red tie wearing Bolsheviks from now on. Commie swines.

where the comrades were so intent on breaking the capitalist machine they felt slaves to that they lost sight of the fact it also fed them

Socialist and communist parties, and union movements throughtout Europe had close relations with communist Russia trhoughout the cold war.

What a load of Daily Telegraph inspired bollox !

So Michael Foot was a KGB spy because the Labour Party had close links with the Kremlin ?
Presumably all Labour governments were pro-Soviet then ?

It reminds me of how the Murdoch media in the US tries to seriously encourage the hopelessly gullible, that their President Barack Obama is actually a Marxist/Commie.

But wait :

[i]"The communist model was still seen as a viable alternative and my English teacher wore a red tie."[/i]

"My English teacher wore a red tie" ? Ahhh I get it now.....you're just having a laugh !

You really got me going there.....Ho Ho Ho .......very good

You only have to compare what the BBC reports with other European channels to know the Beeb does indeed have a "weird ideology". That ideology includes grosly misleading reporting by omission and by giving crdibility to sources they really shouldn't if they are being as objective as they claim to be.

The lead up to the Iraq war was a case in point; TF1 and Eins Extra, the channels I watch most, were giving lots of time and credibility to Hans Blix while the Beeb was dishing out Blair's lies.

It wasn't just the tie, Ernie Lynch.

Some of you should learn to read what is typed rather than assume you know what I (and others) am (are) thinking:

I stated that Hans Blix was given more air time and taken more seriously by euro channels than the BBC. You, Konabunny, distort that as me saying the BBC is anti-UN. I was using it as an example of the BBC being sparing with information that doesn't fit its (and its masters) agenda.

Where the BBC being pro-Kremlin and pro-commmunist came from I have no idea but it wasn't me.

Where the BBC being pro-Kremlin and pro-commmunist came from I have no idea but it wasn't me.

Moore was fined for not paying his TV licence because he said the BBC propagated "weird ideology", while Gordievsky says that the BBC is both a crypto-Communist and pro-Kremlin organisation (a pretty remarkable combination...).

You only have to compare what the BBC reports with other European channels to know the Beeb does indeed have a "weird ideology".

Socialist and communist parties, and union movements throughtout Europe had close relations with communist Russia trhoughout the cold war.

What a load of Daily Telegraph inspired bollox !

So Michael Foot was a KGB spy because the Labour Party had close links with the Kremlin ?
Presumably all Labour governments were pro-Soviet then ?

Ernie - I suggest that before coming out with your defence of the Labour party, you should sit down and read this book:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Defence-Realm-Authorized-History-MI5/dp/0713998857

Might open your eyes to the threat of "The Enemy Within"

Couple of names for you to ponder over:

Will Owen
John Stonehouse
Jack Jones
Ron Hayward

Now, what was it old Footy infamously said? [i]"Dear Comrade Brezhnev"[/i]

The middle quote isn't mine, Konabunny, as in I didn't write it, as in somebody else wrote it and another somebody else posted it.

The BBC has a weird ideology which icludes lots of things but even Moore who used the words "weird ideology" wasn't the one to accuse the BBC of being pro-Kremlin, that was Gordievsky.

there was a long chain of events under Labour leadership that led to the later failures under Thatcher's premiership which resulted in the invasion, the entirety of which led to the war.

So still trying to blame the previous Government for the inaction of the one that succeeded it, a Government that had almost three years to rectify the problem and did nothing but further exacerbate the problem.

Edukator, you have the wrong name.

Edukator - Member

It wasn't just the tie, Ernie Lynch.

No, of course not......but the red tie was obviously a very important factor in identifying him as a communist - otherwise why the need to mention it in your short post ?

It has to be said, it wasn't very clever of your teacher to give himself away like that by wearing a red tie. I take it that he wasn't "openly communist" otherwise you would have mentioned that, rather than the colour of his tie. Some teachers really are a bit thick eh ?

Yep - it was indeed very slack of him. Still, an eagle-eyed pupil managed to identify the undercover commie in his school.

And which of course all this goes to prove, that Michael Foot was a KGB agent who as Zulu-Eleven pointed out, wanted to establish a, quote : [i]"totalitarian marxist state"[/i] in 1983.

And someone called [u]me[/u] a "nutter" ! 😀

I have to say, the [i]entertainment value[/i] of STW sometimes really is stunning !

The btw Edukator, are you really a teacher ?

.

Zulu-Eleven - yes of course I'm going to sit and read your book on "The Enemy Within". Just as soon as I've finish reading all the stuff about how the US president is in fact a commie.

I am a qualified teacher Ernie but I don't teach at the moment. An edukator is something quite different. Manche Menschen ändern sich nie!

Michael Foot was a KGB agent who as Zulu-Eleven pointed out, wanted to establish a, quote : "totalitarian marxist state" in 1983

There is of course little to connect the British Labour party with Marxism, its roots lying in the liberal radical tradition of English politics and in trade union affiliation.
Is Z11 suggesting that after 80 years of parliamentary activity and reformist policy, the Labour party suddenly decided that revoloution was the way forward after all ?

Barking.

The middle quote isn't mine, Konabunny, as in I didn't write it, as in somebody else wrote it and another somebody else posted it.

Yeah, I know - the person who wrote it was me and the person who posted it was me - in the same post! You were confused about where the pro-Communist, pro-Kremlin idea came from - it was the line right after the "weird ideology" bit...

Meanwhile, an obvious Communist yesterday:

[img] [/img]

Is Z11 suggesting that after 80 years of parliamentary activity and reformist policy, the Labour party suddenly decided that revoloution was the way forward after all ?

Barking.

Yeah, there was [b]no[/b] movement within the Labour party in the early eighties that would have taken it in that direction, was there? I mean, the Labour party beneath him was not in any way split horizontally and vertically, was it? Foot was't fighting to suppress any form of dissent in the party, was he? You know, if Labour had won an election in the Eighties, it would clearly have remained a benign, centrist-left party in government...

[img] [/img]

I suggest you may want to learn your party history!

that is trully awful spelling above. You have inadvertently put the letters ommis in the word you meant to say when describng that picture

Yeah, there was no movement within the Labour party in the early eighties that would have taken it in that direction, was there?

I don't remember there being a significant number of Labour candidates in any 80's election that were overtly radical (sadly), so why you're assuming that a revoloution was round the corner I don't know. Murdoch press maybe ?

Foot was't fighting to suppress any form of dissent in the party, was he?

Hang on, you can't have it both ways. You're saying that Foot wanted a Marxist dictatorship but was at the same time fighting against a (possibly Marxist, i don't remember ) militant faction in the party ?

I suggest you may want to learn your party history

I'm not and never have been a member of the Labour party.

You're saying that Foot wanted a Marxist dictatorship

Where the **** did I say that? I said it would have led us into becoming one, not the same thing! (for example, if he had won in '83, Militant would have used their dominance of the NEC, assured through the process of entrism, to take over the party and take us down that road) - thats not the same as saying that Foot would have directly led us there, but at the same time, there is no doubting that Foot and his cronies were heavily influenced by the Soviet union, and that they received funding, directly and/or indirectly, from them, and from the KGB, in an attempt by the Soviets to influence the direction of British Politics

To use the words of Kaufman, who was there at the time:

[i]It is clear that key elements in the Labour party structure were determined to ingratiate themselves with Moscow — regardless of any adverse electoral impact in Britain.[/i]

[i]Let us take Ron Hayward, who was Labour’s general secretary for most of the previous ten years. He was the worst... his aspiration was not a Labour government implementing beneficial policies for the electorate but a National Executive Committee, elected partly by trade union block votes and partly by hard-left constituency parties. Hayward envisaged an annual Labour party conference controlled by trade union block votes, dominating the parliamentary leadership, whose electoral fate he regarded as irrelevant.[/i]

[i]I am particularly nauseated by the boot-licking relationship of these clowns with Viktor Kubeikin, who was the chief KGB spy in London. Poor, innocent Foot had dealings with Kubeikin in complete ignorance of his being a KGB high-up.[/i]

The thing about you Lefties - is that you're unable to see beyond simplistic black/white child-like arguments, so when I say "The approach by Callaghan to the Argentinians played a critical part in forming the complex chain of events which led us down the road to the '82 invasion" you're unable to actually read that without interpreting it as me saying "the Falklands war was nothing to do with Thatcher"

Don't get me wrong, I don't blame you entirely for this failure, its part of the inherent naiveté on which socialist idealism is founded 🙄

there is no doubting that Foot and his cronies were heavily influenced by the Soviet union,

Were they giving him advice on how to fight Militant ? You seem confused as to whether Foot welcomed the far left or he didn't.

And you still haven't demonstrated how Labour intended to lead us into a Marxist dictatorship. If there was a distinct lack of radical parliamentary candidates are you seriously suggesting that after 80 years as a parliamentary party, Labour was suddenly going to become the revoloutionary communist party ?

If there was a distinct lack of radical parliamentary candidates

You don't really understand how Entrism works do you?

Ah, I get it 💡 The Labour parliamentary candidates weren't who they claimed to be and were in fact just ringers.

Were space aliens involved in this conspiracy too ?

No Trailmonkey, you're clearly absolutely right, There was never a problem, and nobody got expelled from the Labour party for being in Militant.

[i]Look into my eyes, look into my eyes, the eyes, the eyes, not around the eyes, don't look around my eyes, look into my eyes, you're under[/i]

Look into my eyes, look into my eyes, the eyes, the eyes, not around the eyes, don't look around my eyes, look into my eyes, you're under

I think that hypnosis is your best bet for convincing us all that the entire Labour parliamentary candidature during the 80's consisted of Marxist agents bent on the overthrow of Parliamentary democracy.

The thing about you Lefties - is that you're unable to see beyond simplistic black/white child-like arguments, so when I say "The approach by Callaghan to the Argentinians played a critical part in forming the complex chain of events which led us down the road to the '82 invasion" you're unable to actually read that without interpreting it as me saying "the Falklands war was nothing to do with Thatcher"

Not quite an admission Z-11, keep going, you're going to get there one day.

I think that hypnosis is your best bet for convincing us all that the entire Labour parliamentary candidature during the 80's consisted of Marxist agents bent on the overthrow of Parliamentary democracy.

Senator Joesph McCarthy must have been his hero. Watch out for the red under the bed!

there is no doubting that Foot and his cronies were heavily influenced by the Soviet union, and that they received funding, directly and/or indirectly, from them, and from the KGB, in an attempt by the Soviets to influence the direction of British Politics

So now the KGB was funding the Labour Party ! 😀

You really do come out with it sometimes Zulu-Eleven !

That sort of bollox might well hold sway amongst the rednecks in Sarah Palin's Tea Party, but I don't think you'll find many over here who will be convinced that the Labour Party was so short of funds that it relied on the KGB for financial support - even amongst Daily Mail readers.

And since when have you been such an admirer of Gerald Kaufman that you feel able to quote him so extensively ? Kaufman has always been a rather peculiar maverick within the Labour Party. He has never had any significant influence in the party, nor any support base. He's not particularly a bad lad, but he does sometimes take a strange line. As a recovering Zionist he has gone from being an outspoken supporter of Israel, to today, being one of its most outspoken critics.

[img] [/img]

And well done for dragging Militant into this. The alleged "Militant threat" is always a good fall-back for discredited right-wing extremists.

Trailmonkey - Nice attempt at a straw man argument, but you know, and I know, thats not what was claimed!

Ernie - No, absolutely correct, KGB never put any money into CPGB, no money into the TU movement, and not a penny to CND, Mitrokhin, despite being proved right on [b]so many[/b] of his allegations, and despite second source confirmation from Chernyaev, was a liar - no members of the Labour party were ever StB agents, no-one took brown envelopes,

In the words of Jack straw:
[i]Thousands of leads from Mr. Mitrokhin's material have been followed up world wide. As a result, our intelligence and security agencies, in co-operation with allied Governments, have been able to put a stop to many security threats. Many unsolved investigations have been closed; many earlier suspicions confirmed; and some names and reputations have been cleared. Our intelligence and security agencies have assessed the value of Mr. Mitrokhin's material world wide as immense."[/i]

As for Gerald, clearly he, as a member of the shadow cabinet, had no reason to think anything was amiss, and was clearly delusional when he wrote that his party was "was betrayed by KGB boot-lickers"

Its all a right wing smear campaign against the Left...

Ernie - No, absolutely correct, KGB never put any money into CPGB

Well as far as the CPGB is concerned of course the CPSU gave them some financial support !

But firstly, why would that be in the least bit surprising ? The CPGB was openly communist - hence the name "Communist Party of Great Britain" (actually financial support almost certainly didn't occur in later years and was probably for a limited period after WW2)

And secondly, what the **** has that got to do with the Labour Party ? .... eh ?

BTW the Labour Party is a huge political party in Britain it doesn't need to depend on cash from [i]any[/i] foreign secret service to survive - FFS. Nor would it want to receive any cash from such a source - why would it ? It has an annual turnover involving £millions - bundles of cash dropped off by KGB handlers would be meaningless. And I'll remind you that Labour Party finances are all open and available for scrutiny.

Still, to darkly suggest that the Labour Party received KGB cash/Moscow gold helps to cultivate the image that Labour politicians are all undercover commies hell-bent on establishing a [i]"totalitarian marxist state"[/i] ........what with their "red ties" and all.

Oh look ........... I've uncovered another commie :

[img] ?maxWidth=500[/img]

You and all the other right-wing extremists are pathetic with your "under the bed reds" scaremongery. That sort of bollox might work in the United States, in the land of religious cranks and right-wing nutters, but over here people are a tad more sophisticated.

So, c'mon Ernie - were the allegations made by Chernyaev false then?

[i]We have discussed everything with him. I took it upon myself to promise him everything they wanted from us, to beat Thatcher and get to power.[/i]

You calling him a Liar?

You don't really understand how Entrism works do you?

It was a total failure. It was successful in bringing a small clique of ideological radicals to the upper echelons of the Labour Party. Unfortunately, it was the clique led by Blair...

Good Lord.

Do some of you lot harbour secret desires to be on the panel on Question Time or something like that?

[i]No I'm clever[/i]

No I'm cleverer

[i]No I'm much cleverer than you[/i]

No you are wrong I am cleverer

Etc...

Why not have a 'Picture Off'; see who can post the best random picture completely unrelated to the [s]discussion[/s] argument? Will be more interesting.

I'll be the judge. Extra points for obtuseness.

Neither did Militant!

Yup.

The Militant Tendency within the Labour Party, were utterly honest concerning who they were, and what they stood for. They never hid anything about themselves, and organised completely openly. They had very clearly laid down policies and were more than happy to identify themselves as individuals.

No one who bought a copy of [i]"The Militant"[/i] off them could be in any doubt who or what they were.

Those factors made it extraordinarily easy for the far right of the Labour Party to manoeuvre against them, and then after identifying them, expel them.

So not only were Militant wrong strategically, ie, in that they should have applied for official affiliation to the Labour Party, something which as a perfectly legitimate opinion/POV within the Labour Movement they had every right to expect (although because of the right-wing stranglehold of the Labour Party they would without doubt have been denied) but they were also hopelessly wrong tactically.

But then one of universal truths concerning all Trots........ whatever their [i]"Tendency"[/i] - SWP, WRP, IMG, etc, is that their tactics are always invariably incorrect.

I'll be the judge. Extra points for obtuseness.

PMSL

[img] http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:G-JEtZJwb72jmM: [/img]

What if the pot was a qualified Judge though?

What about the money that the Tories take from their right wing overseas supporters? The MaCarthyists always forget to look in their own bin when the "funded by the commies argument" gets deployed. I mean I bet Phillip Green has never curried political favour with a donation....right??

This thread has now jumped the shark so many times that the shark has enrolled on a woodwork course, lovingly constructed a stile and long since departed.

...for the Falklands.